After 4 years with Adobe I'm considering changing from PPro 1.5 to either Vegas or <gasp>, Avid Liquid for wedding event videography post production.

If you came from Premiere, what made you switch to Vegas?

What do you like about Vegas that Premiere doesn't do (or doesn't do as well?)

I'm really struggling here as the next NLE I pick will have to be the one I stay with for a while. (Not only the expense but the learning curve - I'm getting too old for this).

After 4 years with Adobe I'm considering changing from PPro 1.5 to either Vegas or <gasp>, Avid Liquid for wedding event videography post production.

If you came from Premiere, what made you switch to Vegas?

What do you like about Vegas that Premiere doesn't do (or doesn't do as well?)

I'm really struggling here as the next NLE I pick will have to be the one I stay with for a while. (Not only the expense but the learning curve - I'm getting too old for this).

I'm trying to wrap my head around Liquid right now...still VERY VERY strange to me. Just picked up Avid Express ProHD 2 weeks ago, that was like putting on old socks, very easy to get going in based on past experience.
Vegas has the shortest learning curve by far, IMO. I have never been a dedicated Premiere Pro user, gave up being dedicated to Premiere back at 5.02c, but...still have PP 1.5 on my system.
There is a thread in the Vegas HDV forum on this very subject.

The short of it is, if you're doing weddings/events/specialty/corporate work that stays mostly in-house, then Vegas is the bomb. If you need to export to other NLE's, compositors, or outside houses, I'd look at ExpressProHD or FCP, and I don't dare comment on Liquid yet. Just doesn't "feel" right to me.
You give up flexibility for compatibility, you give up speed for the same. Vegas is FASST compared to anything else. That's the main benefit, given all it can do. It virtually never crashes, stable as a rock.
But...I'm sure there are some others here that have been more dedicated to Premiere Pro than I have been.

This article didn't present Vegas as terribly quick on the DV for preview, then MPEG2 encode:
http://www.eventdv.net/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=9762

Chart here:
http://www.eventdv.net/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=9786

I'm wondering if these have ever been discussed?

This article didn't present Vegas as terribly quick on the DV for preview, then MPEG2 encode:
http://www.eventdv.net/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=9762

Chart here:
http://www.eventdv.net/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=9786

I'm wondering if these have ever been discussed?

Coupla comments regarding that article.
Until last month, Jan Ozer was pretty open about not liking Sony Vegas. Then last month, he did a shoot out of all NLE's, and I'll be damned, Vegas won the shootout hands down against every other major NLE. Was a shock to everyone.
Anyway, Vegas *isn't* the fastest renderer out there, but it also is overall more accurate. Render a page curl in any app, and look at Vegas doing the same. You'll not spy any aliasing in the Vegas page curl. (Anything else will work as a test too, just page curls make it very evident)
As far as not being quick for preview, that's simply absurd. Just another one of those "Ozer-isms" when it came to Vegas. When Vegas 2.0 came out, he wrote that Vegas had an excellent chromakey if you didn't mind waiting all night for it....well....given that he was accidentally rendering to uncompressed, that would account for not just quality, but slow render time too.
Vegas was the FIRST NLE to have external preview without hardware, and has always been render-less to see what your filters are applying.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=54577

Final scores are as follows:
Premiere Pro - 18
Final Cut Pro - 21.5
Xpress Pro - 14.5
Liquid Edition - 17.5
Vegas - 23.5

If you want real speed editing DV then Edius Pro3 is probably the fastest especially with Canopus hardware. If you do any fancy effects with cropping and keyframe controls then Vegas is the best but you will have to wait for the render. So if you have a multicamera shoot with colour correction, PiP etc then Edius will do this realtime out to DV recordable to tape not just at a preview frame rate. Edius does not have keyframe control other than for the 3D PiP so if this is needed then Vegas or Premiere are the only choices and with this Vegas is the clear winner because the user interface is much easier to understand what is happening. I had mainly used Premiere 6.5 ( with Canopus DVRaptor RT2)until I got my FX1 and needed to move to a NLE that would edit HDV. In evaluating all the choices I ended up with new version of Edius Pro3, Premiere Pro1.5.1 and upgrading my Vegas Le ( that I only used for audio) to Vegas 6. Since spending a lot of time over the first 6 months of 2005 playing with HDV and mixes of HDV and DV I now edit DV with Edius Pro3, still mix audio in Vegas and crop HDV to DV in Vegas. Vegas and Edius have the advantage in being able to mix clip types on the timeline natively, will edit HDV native and have similar color corrections controls. Premiere does have some nice features.. nice batch capture capability, fast smart render and I happen to like the titler.
Ron Evans

I like the titler in Premiere too, fairly robust for the cost.
Don't know if I'd be going down the Canopus road right now though...who knows what lies ahead. Good company...but who knows what lies ahead with Thomson taking over. Then again, many people said that about Sony, too.

I'm trying to wrap my head around Liquid right now...still VERY VERY strange to me. Just picked up Avid Express ProHD 2 weeks ago, that was like putting on old socks, very easy to get going in based on past experience.
Vegas has the shortest learning curve by far, IMO. I have never been a dedicated Premiere Pro user, gave up being dedicated to Premiere back at 5.02c, but...still have PP 1.5 on my system.
There is a thread in the Vegas HDV forum on this very subject.

The short of it is, if you're doing weddings/events/specialty/corporate work that stays mostly in-house, then Vegas is the bomb. If you need to export to other NLE's, compositors, or outside houses, I'd look at ExpressProHD or FCP, and I don't dare comment on Liquid yet. Just doesn't "feel" right to me.
You give up flexibility for compatibility, you give up speed for the same. Vegas is FASST compared to anything else. That's the main benefit, given all it can do. It virtually never crashes, stable as a rock.
But...I'm sure there are some others here that have been more dedicated to Premiere Pro than I have been.


I see you are an old hand at this. I've just got Avid Xpress Pro HD and I bought a graphics card that I'm not sure will work, so I have not opened it yet. I got a deal on e-GeForce 7800 GT with a fast nVidia chipset, but it's not listed in the Avid compatability list? Do you know anything about this? I don't want to open and install a card that won't work or is incompatable.

I was using Premier, but liked what I have been reading about the Avid Xpress Pro HD software, and I'm getting ready to possibly buy the new Panasonic HD camcorder.

Thanks for any help you can give me.

Niki

Niki,
All I can say is that if you use a card not supported by Avid, don't expect tech support, but that doesn't mean the card won't work. Avid is very conservative about their testing.

Ok, thanks for the heads up. I guess I'll take it back and get one of the supported card off the internet.

Ok, thanks for the heads up. I guess I'll take it back and get one of the supported card off the internet.

Like I said, it might well work...just that their tech support's ears shut off when they see you've got something that they haven't officially endorsed.

What do you like about Vegas that Premiere doesn't do (or doesn't do as well?)

be aware that you will be giving up the automatic magnet function that premiere has had for quite awhile... i don't know about vegas 6, but the titler in vegas 5 is pretty bad, especially from the standpoint of project organization and being able to perform simple functions like title export and save.

i think that liquid edition has tremendous potential, in that it's designed for hardware acceleration with off-the-shelf video cards, something that none of these other editors do... but if it still has that marginal single-pass mpeg2 encoding capability, don't plan on being able to use a frame-serving function to encode off of the timeline to, say, procoder... the l.e. people refused to release the minor code satish needed to implement his free frameserver, maybe that has changed now that avid has taken it over?

i don't know about vegas 6, but the titler in vegas 5 is pretty bad, especially from the standpoint of project organization and being able to perform simple functions like title export and save.
No. It's still the same in Vegas 6. And yes I still like the titler in PPro.

Avid's titler in Luquid is still the old version of TitleDeko from Pinnacle days (even the titler in Pinnacle's $89 product is better). I don't think this has changed in Avid Luquid 7. Folks sure do swear by this NLE though - if you can tolerate the day and a half it takes to load. I'm with Douglas on this one - I just can't seem to get into a decent workflow with it. (It's like doing something left-handed).

I'm wondering what 1st quarter '06 will bring to Premiere Pro when Adobe launches its new creative suite. I hear it will have onboard DVD menu functionality. (Encore built in?) plus multicam support.

These answers are only a few months away and I'm tempted to wait and see.

"I'm with Douglas on this one - I just can't seem to get into a decent workflow with it. (It's like doing something left-handed)."

im the same, we used to distribute this, (still do) and there was ahandful of diehard fans...when 6 came out with the BoB, it was a gosend to capture using that.. but the chipset and USB funcinaltiy was very meticulous.. once we got it working (after 4 system rebuilds) it worked a treat..

for a Software based NLE, liquid has the potential ot beat the lot, with its powerful GPU link up and background rendering, however its design and implication within the workflow sux the big one.. i hate the databasing system (which apparently has been retweaked in version 7) everythign is convoluted and drawn out, i cant apply a filter without going through menus and screens and that jsut shits me.. i wanna apply a filter, lop the area, and tweak as needed... u cant tweak and preview at the same time like u can with Edius and Vegas, not even premier lets u tweak and preview. I know the Matrox RTx has that, but as soon as u add a keyframe, forget it. u gotta start it again.. u cant conintuousy loop... in vegas u can.. this is a MASSIVE deal if your playing with lights, surround pans, and various trackmotions...

As for the HDV.. i despise the native format.. M2t, is just a horrible format.. very messy in alot of NLE/s id rather be cuttin SD 4.2.2 DVCPro 50 than HDV.. but thats me.. i liek to colour grade EVERYTHIGN i do.. as soon as u add filters in some of these native editors, they jsut kill the whole thing..

I also feel that Vegas works buch better AS AN EDITOR (forget rendering) but as an actual hands on piece of SW which is used to cut and mix, i find the workflow is far FAR superior to anything else...
Even with "realtime" rendering cards, you stil have to prerender.. with Vegas, u can render overnight and reimport that segment with no loss in quality..also alot of teh cards dont even supoport progressive scan...
rendering is only an issue if im on a deadline, but clients are advised of teh limitaitons..

If Vegas however was to be released with a Mojo like Break out box, with a DV/HDV accelerator, the it would definately be even more of a threat to the way things are done in this industry...

the ol school way of working and the line of thinking that theres only one way to do things is no more..
Use vegas, njoi it, learn from it (coz it WILL teach you ne things... ) and take the time to really understand why it does what it does and how.. youll then relaise that it really is the most powerful and user friendly of the lot..

Sorry but my Vegas trial died last week.

So what I'm hearing is Vegas does not pre-render? Can you render only a portion of the timeline for preview? Is it as slow at rendering as some people claim?

So what I'm hearing is Vegas does not pre-render? Can you render only a portion of the timeline for preview? Is it as slow at rendering as some people claim?

Yes, you can pre-render in Vegas. The biggest problem with Vegas pre-renders is that they're easy to "lose". However, you CAN pre-render.

If you're only wanting a very small portion of the timeline for preview, though, RAM preview might be a better option in many cases.

or you can pre-render just the looped region

I'm about to run out of time with the Vegas demo, but one thing that I can't get Vegas to do - even after following the steps in the help file - is adjust the length of a transition. Yes the basic grab and pull for a fade to black, but any of the other transitions I select are all set for a mere 7 frames - less then 1/3 of a second. Is there a global setting to set transition length to say 2 seconds? When I follow the steps in "help" I end up with a transition that goes from scene 1 to 2 back to 1 then finally to scene 2.
Some things I like or find easier in the PPro demo are, scene transition length-very easy and intuative, just slide the transiton time indicator, or click and enter the length of time. When you preview a clip with keyframes, the current time indicator in the keyframe window moves along so you can closely look for any obvious changes as it crossses over the keyframe during your preview. In Vegas, the keyframe time indicator stays frozen until you stop playing the clip, then jumps to the stop point. PPro gives you a shortcut box everytime you perform an action, making it easy to learn the shortcuts.
Maybe I'm missing the quick and simple way of performing these steps in Vegas, any tips would be appreciated. Thanks - PK

The general answer is that you simply overlap to clips and the larger the overlap, the longer the transition. With Vegas 6, it will now tell you how long that transition is as you change the overlap. If you want a EXACT transition length when you're adding new events to the timeline, you can set that in Options - Preferences on the editing tab. If you have events on the timeline and you want each of them to be overlapped a specific amount, the easiest way is via scripting.

My analysis won't be very scientific. I don't know alot of the techno terms. I'm just a point and click type of guy. But I have messed around with 2 or 3 NLE's ..Ulead medio studio pro. Adobe premiere and vegas. And for the work that I do, I believe Vegas wins hands down. After using premiere for a year or so, i basically went bald, from pulling my hair out. The program would constantly crash. was extremely unstable. Yes, it might have been capatibility issues with the computer or capture card or what have you. But who knows. I have worked on huge projects in Vegas. I'm talking 30 tracks of video, 30 tracks of audio, effects out the wah-zoo, in one project.... and the program never even hinted at locking up or crashing. It's hard for me to explain, but the way in which you edit video on the timeline within vegas is just so refreshing. So smooth and clean. I would edit video manually, between 2 vcr's before I ever went back to premiere. The main advantage I see to premiere over vegas, is that it has more 3rd party plugin software. Other than that, I would atleast give vegas a try. Spend a week playing around with it. It's a little different at first, but it will grow on you quickly.


j.

Edward and John - Thanks for your replies. I am experimenting with the demo's of Vegas + PPro. Everybody seems to love Vegas, and I don't see too many people extolling the virtues of PPro. I just purchased a Sony HC-1, so I will be looking at doing HDV, probably mixed with DV from my Panny GS400. Theere are things I prefer about Vegas vs PPro, but PPro overall seems easier to use or figure out. I will be purchasing either the Adobe Video Coll ($945 w Cineform Aspect) or Vegas+DVD (plus Cineform Connect $200?) Its a matter of quality of output and ease/like using. Here's the things I don't like/can't figure out in each of them:

PREMIERE PRO

1. Endless drop down menus are a pain.

2. As you preview, the time line doesn't keep moving to stay at your current position until you stop/pause, and even then it can be stuborn about advancing to position.

3. No demo animated icon of what transition effect is.

VEGAS

1. No quick key to expand/condense timeline. The timeline horizontal scrol bar is expanded/contracted for this. When you are zoomed in it is hard to move the scroll bar - its small and it always wants to zoom out, not slide.

2. If you slide/scroll very far on the timeline, the timeline icons do NOT represent where you really are. After you stop it will update, then you find you went too far and have to do it all again.

3. Keyframing, the time indicator does not move while previewing the clip you just modified, so you can't tell when your passing over the keyframe.

4. After working in the "Event fx" you can't just hit space bar/jkl keys to preview your work, you have to mouse above the time line, or go to transport keys on botttom of timeline window.

5. Lack of flexibility in your various "windows" layout. ie. I click the timeline to get to the "event fx" function, the Event FX window use to pop up as a big box over the timeline and the bottom window below the time line. Now it only pops up INTO the window below the time line. I CAN"T GET IT TO GO BACK TO ON TOP! This is VERY frustrating, Help - is not help! You need a taller view to effectively use some of the filters, etc in here.

PPro will get sluggish on a project over about 45 minutes in length. It seems if I save and exit, then return to PPro, the sluggishness is gone. Vegas never seems to have any hint of sluggishness or that it might want to crash. My almost 2 years of video editng were mostly on Pinn Studio, that would crash/freeze/dump all the time if you had a project that was 30min+. NOTHING is more frustrating then to have it crash and loose several hour of work.

So, I want to be a Vegas kinda guy :-) I know there must be some sort of work around/ quick key or something around the things I mentioned, but its frustrating not knowing them. If I buy the program does it come with an old fashioned manual book? I really prefer that to these silly Help files.

1- Mouse scroll wheel zooms in/out. Hold shift key to modify the scroll wheel to pan/move the timeline left right. Check the shortcut keys thread stickied in the vegas forum.

3- You can scrub the video FX window as a workaround.

In the FX window's mini-timeline, click-drag the playhead around. Be sure you put the playhead back at the first frame, otherwise you may accidentally add a keyframe.

4- If you want, you can play a loop of video while you tweak the filter effects on the fly. q is the shortcut key to loop playback. Double clicking on a clip sets the loop region to that clip.

5- You can move the windows around and bring them out of the that region thing in the bottom/top. On the upper left corner, there is a column of six dots. Click-drag that to move windows around to reposition the interface to what you like.

Double-click the top part of a window to smartly size it so you see all the controls.

Hit Crtl Alt D, and then a number (0-10) to save a window layout.
Alt D, and then a number to recall a particular window/interface layout.

1. No quick key to expand/condense timeline. The timeline horizontal scrol bar is expanded/contracted for this. When you are zoomed in it is hard to move the scroll bar - its small and it always wants to zoom out, not slide.

2. If you slide/scroll very far on the timeline, the timeline icons do NOT represent where you really are. After you stop it will update, then you find you went too far and have to do it all again.

3. Keyframing, the time indicator does not move while previewing the clip you just modified, so you can't tell when your passing over the keyframe.

4. After working in the "Event fx" you can't just hit space bar/jkl keys to preview your work, you have to mouse above the time line, or go to transport keys on botttom of timeline window.

5. Lack of flexibility in your various "windows" layout. ie. I click the timeline to get to the "event fx" function, the Event FX window use to pop up as a big box over the timeline and the bottom window below the time line. Now it only pops up INTO the window below the time line. I CAN"T GET IT TO GO BACK TO ON TOP! This is VERY frustrating, Help - is not help! You need a taller view to effectively use some of the filters, etc in here.

6. If I buy the program does it come with an old fashioned manual book? I really prefer that to these silly Help files.

1. Put your mouse over the timeline. Now scroll the mouse wheel :-)

2. Agreed, it has to read the files to pull up the picons for the new location in the file. That does take a little bit of time.

3. Never seen that as a problem. I think the keyframing in Vegas is very easy to use. You do have the Sync Cursor button you might want to try (I usually leave it turned off until I have a good use for it).

4. What if you use the F12 key instead? Besides, Vegas is the only NLE where you can set up a loop area, start playback and then adjust the FX on the fly while playback continues. Try it out!

5. Sounds like you've docked it. Just undock it. There's a series of dots on the upper left side of that window. Click on those dots and drag upwards to undock it.

6. No. It comes with online help and a PDF file. You can print the PDF file or take it somewhere that will print and bind it. You can download the PDF file now if you haven't done so.

Thank you, Glen and Edward, I t sounds like you guys were generous enough to solve all my simple little problems. I really, really do appreciate all the help on this forum, it makes learning a new NLE a lot quicker. I'll be busy with Christmas the next couple of days, so probably won't get to check these out until then, but again, Thank you very much and have a wonderful Holiday - PK

Hi Paul,

As for the lack of a printed manual that ships with Vegas, I have to say that I find the online help in Vegas to be very well written, well laid out, and I can actually *FIND* things in the online help with use of their index or searching with keywords. For me, the online help has been a great way to quickly learn the product.

And for some general Vegas thoughts:

I have been using Vegas for about 2 years or so, and I've tried using Premiere Pro 1.5, but the interface is very obnoxious to me. Not only does it have the problems mentioned above, like not being able to play and tweak FX at the same time, but PPro just seems to be slow in general. For example, it takes a bit longer for PPro to play video after you hit the spacebar/play button.

It was mentioned that Vegas was the only NLE where you can loop and modify FX at the same time, and that may be true on Windows, but Final Cut Pro can do this, it's just a bit more convoluted and requires a separate (specific) video preview window open.

One of my biggest problems with PPro (and perhaps FCP, I'm not sure how this works in FCP?) is that you cannot preview what a plugin preset will do to your video in PPro. In Vegas, you apply a plugin, then you can select different presets from the list and the preview window will show you the results. In PPro, plugin "presets" actually behave more like individual plugins -- you have to apply one, see the result, then disable/remove it, apply another, see the results, etc etc... Extremely annoying if you're like me and enjoy using the Magic Bullet Film Look plugin with all it's presets.

That said, one of my biggest problems with Vegas is it's outdated and arcane plugin API. If you're interested in developing DirectX plugins in C/C++ for Vegas, strap yourself in for some ridiculous obnoxious Microsoft-isms.

Also many people have said that Vegas is very stable and reliable. And while I have to admit Vegas crashes very rarely, it does have a few problems that I've run into:

1) Setting Vegas' RAM limit to more than 1.5GB of RAM would cause Vegas to always crash during a RAM preview that filled up it's limit. Bummer.

2) I've had a few consistent problems with Vegas rendering incorrect output in certain circumstances. After editing my short film for a few hours, I would tell Vegas to render the video to a single AVI file, and after it was done parts of the video would be completely incorrect -- that is, the video would change scenes all of the sudden! It's like Vegas has a mind of it's own and re-edited my footage. I found that I have to close Vegas and then reopen the project before rendering it out to disk. It's the only reliable way to do it. Sounds like a memory handling bug in Vegas.

Anyways, have fun with whatever you use!

Happy Holidays!
Adam

Thanks Adam for your input. I'm not a programmer, so I certainly won't be doing any C++iting for Vegas. I'm surprised to hear about your video coming out incorrectly in Vegas.

From what I've seen on a G5 Mac with FCP running, PPro and FCP are almost identical, at least in the basics and how the interface works.

My experience with burning a DVD from a project that I've played with in both PPro and Vegas, is that the Vegas output is cleaner and richer. This is strange because with both I hada to output as an AVI to Premiere Elements and burn with that (Its a Adobe licensed version of Sonic).

...After editing my short film for a few hours, I would tell Vegas to render the video to a single AVI file, and after it was done parts of the video would be completely incorrect -- that is, the video would change scenes all of the sudden! It's like Vegas has a mind of it's own and re-edited my footage. I found that I have to close Vegas and then reopen the project before rendering it out to disk. It's the only reliable way to do it. Sounds like a memory handling bug in Vegas...I just had that experience for the first time a few days ago. During a 2.5 hour avi to avi render, Vegas ignored half of the dissolve transitions in a 2 minute segment of an hour-long piece. Fortunately, Vegas made it easy to accurately isolate and render just the offending section and insert it into the main veg for the final render to MPG2. Rebooting before rendering is a good call.

So, I have read for days on forums (mainly this one) and agree on one thing. PPro does crash a lot. I thought it was my PC or all the little demo programs I downloaded and tried. I have Media Studio Pro, PPro1.5, and looks like I will be using Vegas 6 because it sounds most stable. I have very limited experience in NLE but enough to know it's not my PC... One habit I got into with PPro was to limit my scene rendering to small 3 to 5 mins because of crashing. Then I would use another program to piece it together and make the final. Mind you I really haven't done any thing longer than 30 mins. I learned to limit transistions just from experence before I read about limiting them. I downloaded the trial ver of Vegas 6 and will give it a shot. As of now I find it a little perplexing but aren't they all at first.
Two questions I would like to pose is:
1. Is Vegas an all around program for start to finish editing?
2. What in conjunction does everyone use with it?

Examples:
I use VideoStudio for capturing. (Cause I didn't have a DV Camera till this week)
I use simple Ulead programs like 3D for fast intro and EFX.
I use PPro or Media Studio to edit the rushes.
I use either Ulead or Nero to build the final for the DVD.
I use NERO for burning the DVD. (PPro crashes because I guess it has some conflicks with the 64 bit processor I use...)
That being said it's obvious I am very green and have learned mostly on my own because I am bull headed. Sorry so long! Thanks to all here for all the help :)

"Ya can't fix it cause ya don't know how it works"

....I'm a normal guy that will not stop and ask directions....

1. Is Vegas an all around program for start to finish editing?
2. What in conjunction does everyone use with it?

1. Yes, Vegas is designed for exactly that - edit a project from start to finish.

2. Definitely get Vegas+DVD. The DVD aspect is also very powerful. However, you really don't "need" anything beyond that.

There are some things available but it's hard to say exactly which pieces would be useful to YOU. If you have some specific needs, we could surely point you in the right direction.

You might also want to get some training materials. There's the free newsletters on my website (http://www.jetdv.com) which can help get you started. There's also books and DVD training materials available from a variety of sources.

...I use VideoStudio for capturing. (Cause I didn't have a DV Camera till this week)
I use simple Ulead programs like 3D for fast intro and EFX.
I use PPro or Media Studio to edit the rushes.
I use either Ulead or Nero to build the final for the DVD.
I use NERO for burning the DVD...I use Vegas + DVD for all the above.

I do three-camera shoots of stage productions, choral and band concerts. Vegas lets me view all three video tracks on the editing timeline and in the preview monitor (using a picture in picture array). This makes it easy to choose which cam I want to cut to and to find the exact point where the inserted transition will be the most effective. I can view the results of all video effects edits in real time. Vegas is very powerful in terms of video effects, compositing and track motion, and I have barely scratched the surface of its capabilities. It has a nice suite of transition effects, but I pretty much stick to a mixture of straight cuts and crossfades. It also offers plenty of titling options.

Most of my productions are on the order of an hour or more long, and a few have gone close to 2 hours. Vegas has never crashed my 2.4 Ghz WinXP system, including during a render. Rendering times are reasonable by current standards, with rendering / real time ratios of about 1.5 / 1 for moderately edited avi to avi renders, and about 2.5 / 1 for avi to final MPEG-II.

Except for a capture problem I'm having inside Vegas, I am beginning to get a feel for it, and I'm on at the crossroads. In the past for simple edits, I actually used Pinnacle Studio 9. I upgraded to Pinnacle Studio 10, but it seems to have a lot of bugs. What I liked about Pinnacle is you could do fairly complex edits, add music tracks, titles, transitions, and photos (Ken Burns effects included) easily. Because of the simplicity, and though I've had access and used Premiere 6.5 and a Real Time editting board, I found I could put out a decent product in most situation with that editting suite. I could easily output the product to a DVD, still in the same program. The one problem with the DVD is that it would get hung up on Transitions and titles in my Sony DVD player. My cheap players would not have a problem, but for some reason the Sony did.

I've now purchased the Sony Platinum Movie Studon + DVD, and I am getting into the learning curve on these products. I've produced DVDs, and there is, naturally, no problem with transitions. I'm thinking, unless something drastic happens, that I will be moving into this as my primary editing suite.

One issue needs resolution though. I have had the ability in Studio to capture to my USB 2.0 drives, without any problems.

In Vegas, as well as in Premiere Pro 1.51, when I start a DV capture to the USB 2.0 drives, the entire system will freeze, to the point that I cannot even shut down the system with a keyboard command, and I have to switch off the power manually.

Any body have that problem or a solution.

Hi again Chris!!! I just posted a follow up on another post about what I think could be a fix. Might and I say again---> Might be a dual processor glitch. I haven't read enough to say for sure but I have read if you turn off one of the processors it might fix the problem. I know, ya paid good money for this stuff and I am finding that my old system I surf with is just as good as my production machine. I have even been looking at the G5s... Oh man, my book keeper is gonna kill me :( Hope this helps!!!! John

Oh!!! I forgot to thank you all for the advice.. Great advice!!!!!!!!

What I liked about Pinnacle is you could do fairly complex edits, add music tracks, titles, transitions, and photos (Ken Burns effects included) easily.

The same can be said of Vegas. I find it very fast and easy for all of the above tasks.

One issue needs resolution though. I have had the ability in Studio to capture to my USB 2.0 drives, without any problems.

I know many people are successfully doing exactly that. I'm assuming you are capturing via firewire? I prefer having the external drive hooked up via firewire but I've used it both ways.

I've now purchased the Sony Platinum Movie Studon + DVD, and I am getting into the learning curve on these products. I've produced DVDs, and there is, naturally, no problem with transitions. I'm thinking, unless something drastic happens, that I will be moving into this as my primary editing suite.

In Vegas, as well as in Premiere Pro 1.51, when I start a DV capture to the USB 2.0 drives, the entire system will freeze, to the point that I cannot even shut down the system with a keyboard command, and I have to switch off the power manually.


Hi Chris....
Firstly, I'm not sure if this is relevant. But I did have loads of problems editing footage via usb2 from my laptop to firewire on my external harddrive. Then when I changed to editing via firewire from my laptop to firewire on my ext hd....the issues vanished.

Secondly, I have used Premiere (which I dont particularly like) and am now thinking of getting the Sony Plat movie studio + Dvd. I was wondering what your opinion was of it(pleasantness&ease of use, features etc) before I make a final decision....

Tracey

Tracey:

To start off with, I am so used to Premiere, and working with its time line, that I am having some trouble adapting to and working with the programs in Movie Studio, but my impression is that once I learn the changes in the workflow, I will likely be a confirmed Vegas user-- mainly because its seems to be becoming the one to use and has the most support in the community. Right now, however, if I want to put something together fast and simple, I rely on Premiere, or Pinnacles Studio Plus 10 just because I don't have to think about it in detail.

As to Movie Studio + DVD, the first thing you need to know is that the three main components are three separate programs - Vegas, Acid XCM, and DVD Architect. All are "reduced" featured vsersions of the professional programs available, but have plenty of features to put together a fine edit, from the editing of video footage, to the editing of the sound track to the end product, the DVD.

I've not really designed a DVD with it yet. I have made most of DVD productions in the past with Pinnacle Studio. Again, its what I am used to, and Architect's process and terminology is quite different, so there is a learning curve. I have burnt one test DVD without menus, the the resulting burn was just fine. In fact, I have a Sony DVD player. It is touchy in display titles and transitions from a Pinnacle Studio produced DVD, but it does fine with the DVD architect version of the same video. It is strange, but most of the cheap player I have in the house don't have proplems with the Pinnacle DVD- just the Sony.

In any event, from what I have seen so far, I am sure Vegas has a good process and will eventually become my mainstay..

Chris Barcellos

I have been using PPro1.5 and others for about 3 months now and I have found that Pinnacle is so much easier to use. I have tried most of the demos out there and I like PP1 the best but it's preview mode when you try to set cut and past points it doesn't preview the points in real time very good at all. May be me being new to it and not knowing it very well but when I use Pinnacle it's great. Real time editing on all points of efx to inserting text and everything. I just downloaded the Vegas 6 demo and of course it's a whole learning curve again. I don't plan on doing lots of efx and stuff I just want to do plain videos on instructional content so for me it looks like Pinnacle is the way to go and it's very inexpensive compaired to the "Pro" stuff.

One more thing--> Is there a webserver or a site you can upload samples so others can view them??? I haven't tried to do this on my little website, might be able to. I build PCs but I don't know nuttin about websites....

. I don't plan on doing lots of efx and stuff I just want to do plain videos on instructional content so for me it looks like Pinnacle is the way to go and it's very inexpensive compaired to the "Pro" stuff.

One more thing--> Is there a webserver or a site you can upload samples so others can view them??? I haven't tried to do this on my little website, might be able to. I build PCs but I don't know nuttin about websites....


John:

Re: Pinnacle Studio: Thats kind of the way I feel. Why complicate things if you don't need it.

As to the website, I use the one called epowhost.com. I just took a shot in the dark. For under $100.00 they set up a domain name, and give you six gigs of web space, with 90 gig of bandwidth monthly That give you a full year of service. Has been prettly reliable. You've gone to my site. I don't know anything about doing web pages, etc., and they give you access to Site Studio which is a template driven web design tool. Its limited, but it gets something up there. My law office page is through them also. (www.elkgrovelaw.com)

As to uploading samples for others to look at, it is done easily through their system. If you go that way, I can give you some pointers.


Chris Barcellos

Tracey:
In any event, from what I have seen so far, I am sure Vegas has a good process and will eventually become my mainstay..
Chris Barcellos

Chris, thanks for putting forth your views on vegas. But is sounds like you and John really like Pinnacle..... So Im assuming you think vegas has more to offer once you get to know it, which is why you are planning to make it your mainstay.. That is encouraging to know. I must admit Iam sick of chopping and changing between editing programmes and would like to stick with one (the next one I buy) and master it inside out. Sounds like vegas has an edge in some respects. I have to make a decision within the next few weeks and your comments have made me continue to lean toward vegas.... :) Although..... I am curious to know...what do you think vegas has over pinnacle??

Tracey

What I like about Pinnacle Studio Plus 10

1. Pinnacle Studio Plus 10 actually edits in the native HDV file stream, using Liquid engine.

2. Has a basic editing format that I have been working with 6 years or more. It is simple and a lot easier to master than Vegas or Premiere.

3. Drag and drop clips from the folder I'm working

4. There are three different modes for editing, but I have always used the time line. You trim you clips to in and out points, and drag and drop but end to last clip, or insert by drag and drop in between two clips on the line. Transitions are dropped between clips, and are easily edit for length.

5. Pinnacle 10 continuously renders in background, so you have a near real time output to review as you edit. When you make a lot of changes, though, that is a little "buggy" sometime.

6. I have acquired, over the years, a lot of SmartSound music, and SmartSound works inside of Pinnacle. (Smart Sound allows you to pick a music track, and it adjusts the track to length of your video, and makes a seamless song. I also have a stand alone version, so it can be used in Vegas too.

7. Has a decent titler, that I ve learned to work with over years.

8. DVD burning, including menu set up and systems, works right on the same time line, inside Pinnacle. You even burn the DVD, or your disk image right from Pinnacle 10.

What Movie Studio + DVD improves on:

1. Multiple video tracks. Pinnacle only has 2.

2. While I am not versed in it yet, I understand the sound utilities will be better.

3. More stable transitions and titling. Again, I have learned this aspect yet, Pinnacle DVD encoding sometime create problems in transitions and titling. Most notable is a stuttering effect on some DVD players. I note that on my Sony DVD player. I actually rendered exactly the same movie to 2 DVDs, one through Pinnacle, and one through DVD Architect Studio. The Pinnacle showed the problem, and the Architect Studio did not. work right. This bothered me about Pinnacle as I was always worried about sending a DVD to a client that might act up in there DVD player.

4. Most importantly, I think there are a lot more third party plug ins out there for the Vegas format.

5. User support-- there seem to be a lot more users out there willing to share about use of the Sony programs.

What I don't like is the fact that if I want to edit HDV decently, I have to buy Cinneform HDConnect to convert to easier editing format. Thats $200.00. If you want full versions of the three programs, you have to upgrade. I actually upgraded the XMC Acid to Acid Music Studio, for better functionality. I will play a little bit with the .m2t editing capabilities now to see if that can work out.

That's where I'm at at this point.

Chris Barcellos

5. User support-- there seem to be a lot more users out there willing to share about use of the Sony programs.
Chris Barcellos

User support is the one thing I've learnt is important to consider! I remember when I first learnt Premiere(the first editing programme I'd ever used).....I couldnt get any advice, tips(no one I knew at the time had used it) and it was a kind of nightmare really...... although I figured it out in the end...as you do. But I don't ever want to go through that again.

Pinnacle sounds good.....but......

I cant wait to try out Vegas!

Tracey

What I don't like is the fact that if I want to edit HDV decently, I have to buy Cinneform HDConnect to convert to easier editing format. Thats $200.00.

Everything needed to edit HDV is included with the Platinum version. You do not have to buy Cineform in addition to VMS (or the full version of Vegas). Cineform does add some abilities not found in Vegas but is not a requirement. And, yes, Vegas can directly edit from the m2t stream (though that's not generally recommended).

What I like about Pinnacle Studio Plus 10I gave up on this a long time ago.

The 2 track timeline limitations are too few for me. But this problem is overshadowed by the fact Pinnacle (Avid) still can't get a stable product out without a year's worth of updates.

I don't plan on doing lots of efx and stuff I just want to do plain videos on instructional content so for me it looks like Pinnacle is the way to go and it's very inexpensive compaired to the "Pro" stuff.I know the product is only $89 but before you make that plunge I think a visit to the Pinnacle Studio 10 forums will change your mind.

It seems there isn't anyone who has abandoned Vegas for Premiere and that's understandable. And now, with the realease of PPro 2.0 I don't see anyone jumping to it considering the lackluster new features which Vegas has had for some time.

My only concern right now with Vegas is its plug-in support (or lack of it). The titler really sucks and my add-on's from BorisFX don't interact well inside of Vegas. (Whereas in Premiere they work seemlessly with the rest of the UI).

John:

Re: Pinnacle Studio: Thats kind of the way I feel. Why complicate things if you don't need it.

As to the website, I use the one called epowhost.com. I just took a shot in the dark. For under $100.00 they set up a domain name, and give you six gigs of web space, with 90 gig of bandwidth monthly That give you a full year of service. Has been prettly reliable. You've gone to my site. I don't know anything about doing web pages, etc., and they give you access to Site Studio which is a template driven web design tool. Its limited, but it gets something up there. My law office page is through them also. (www.elkgrovelaw.com)

As to uploading samples for others to look at, it is done easily through their system. If you go that way, I can give you some pointers.


Chris Barcellos

Thanks Chris!!

User support is the one thing I've learnt is important to consider! I remember when I first learnt Premiere(the first editing programme I'd ever used).....I couldnt get any advice, tips(no one I knew at the time had used it) and it was a kind of nightmare really...... although I figured it out in the end...as you do. But I don't ever want to go through that again.

Pinnacle sounds good.....but......

I cant wait to try out Vegas!

TraceySpeaking of support, I've never seen anyone more responsive and knowledgeable than Edward Troxel on Vegas.

I know the product is only $89 but before you make that plunge I think a visit to the Pinnacle Studio 10 forums will change your mind.

Rick: While I've already indicated there are a few problems Pinnacle has to iron out in 10, I have used their products for years and had the same things happen. New release, a period of problems.

The problem with relying on the Forum there to judge how the software can perform is that this is generally a consumer product, not a professional product. You are getting a lot of people there who don't know to much about any aspect of video editing or general computing issues for that matter.

I have been reading a lot on Vegas 6 and will before I dish out another wad of money. The full version of Vegas does not support scripting just one of the drawbacks of Vegas I have found so far other than that it's a Plus and I feel that for someone that is planning on staying with NLE it's support in forums and all is fantastic!!! Might have to dish out the bucks and stick with it. I will have another 5 days off comming up and plan on testing it out a whole lot more. Gosh, if I only had a camera!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been reading a lot on Vegas 6 and will before I dish out another wad of money. The full version of Vegas does not support scripting just one of the drawbacks of Vegas I have found so far other than that it's a Plus and I feel that for someone that is planning on staying with NLE it's support in forums and all is fantastic!!! Might have to dish out the bucks and stick with it. I will have another 5 days off comming up and plan on testing it out a whole lot more. Gosh, if I only had a camera!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Actually, ONLY the full version of Vegas supports scripting. Neither of the two Movie Studio versions support scripting. All versions support DX plugins.

The full version of Vegas does not support scripting just one of the drawbacks of Vegas I have found so far

No. The full version of Vegas DOES include scripting. The "Movie Studio" versions of Vegas do not.

Oh! OK Thanks. I really believe this will be my choice after I block out all my prior experience (which isn't really that much) and buckle down this weekend and make myself learn it. Thanks again :)