Hi

I purchased the GY-HD101 a few weeks ago (love it!). I am mostly doing chroma-key work and would therefore appreciate the benefoits of working with an uncompressed signal. Can anyone recommend the least expensive way to capture uncompressed HD from the 101 either to my G5 Mac or 2.8ghz laptop?

Thanks.

Trevor

I just successfully did it last week with a Decklink HD system on a Dual 2.5 G5 equipped with a Decklink Multibridge (for analog to SDI conversion)

It worked great, but you have to remember that you can only get true uncompressed when shooting "live," not playing back from tape (since the signal has already been through the MPEG2 encoder.)

The other thing is that when in 720P30 mode, the analog component outputs send out 720P60. This is great for shooting true HD slow-mo.
When the camera is in 720P24 mode, the output is 720P48. I captured this stream with the 720P60 decklink preset and it had a pulldown of 4:1.
I assume 720P25 can be captured in a 720P50 stream? I didn't test 25P.

Hi

Thanks for the reply. A couple of further questions then..

(1) What was involved in the deck link set up and any idea of rough kind of price?

(2) How are you capturing live onto your Mac? I can capture live on my windows laptop using Serious Magic's DV Tack. But I don't htink I have anything to capture live on my Mac. I use Final Cut Pro 5.

Thanks

Trevor

So it captures the 24p fine then? What about the SD modes? Can it capture 480p60?

(1) What was involved in the deck link set up and any idea of rough kind of price?
I was specifically using Decklink HD PRO 4:4:4 ($1495 U.S)
http://www.decklink.com/products/hd/

and the Multibridge HD ($1995 U.S.) to convert the HD anolog out to SDI.
http://www.decklink.com/products/multibridgeconverter/

digitizing to an Xserve RAID ($8000 U.S.)
http://www.apple.com/ca/xserve/raid/

Keep in mind this system is in a post-house, so not the kind of thing you would be able to cart out to location to record uncompressed HD. The only really useful application would be clean green-screen shooting in a studio.

(2) How are you capturing live onto your Mac? I can capture live on my windows laptop using Serious Magic's DV Tack. But I don't htink I have anything to capture live on my Mac. I use Final Cut Pro 5.
I was also just using FCP 5. Just turn off deck control and then "capture now" using a Decklink 720P60 preset.
You could also capture live HDV in 720P30 mode with FCP5. I've done that before, but anything going down the firewire is in no way 'uncompressed.' Same goes for DV Rack. You can transcode into an uncompressed codec, but the image has already gone through one stage of MPEG2 4:2:0 compression.

Would you need the Decklink HD PRO 4:4:4 or would the less expensive Decklink HD PRO 4:2:2 be ideal? Is the analog component out of the cam 4:4:4 or is it 4:2:2?

Would you need the Decklink HD PRO 4:4:4 or would the less expensive Decklink HD PRO 4:2:2 be ideal? Is the analog component out of the cam 4:4:4 or is it 4:2:2?

Good question. Is the analog output of the HD100 created from a 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 source? I don't know for sure, but common sense says to me that it is actually only 4:2:0 - since the colour space is probably a property of the CCDs (at the time they are scanned) and image processor and not the MPEG2 encoder. Maybe someone "in the know" can confirm this for us.

Either way, the 4:4:4 is definitely overkill for most HD formats. Typically I am digitizing HDCAM originated material or 35mm to HDCAM film transfers, and standard HDCAM is only 3:1:1.
I've never actually used the 12-bit 4:4:4 because it requires dual-stream SDI, and I've never worked with any sort of deck in that format. Also, it eats up hard drive space like crazy. I suppose 4:4:4 12-bit would be used with something like a Thompson Viper.

So I guess the short answer is that 4:2:2 would be fine. Blackmagic makes three flavours of Decklink HD in 4:2:2 starting at $595.
You might even be able to find a much cheaper analog component to SDI converter.

Thanks Tim, thats really helpful.

Would does SDI mean? And I am doing green screen work with the HD101 so any idea whether it would be worth getting the 4:4:4 version of deck link or would it be overkill?

Trevor

SDI - Serial Digital Interface.
In a few words it is the digital version of the Composite signal (format is different YCrCb though) which can be transmitted on the same common Coax cables used for Video.
Since it is digital, you have no quality loss of the signal on long cables and 50/60 Hz video hum is gone between devices which are connected on different power sockets.
The video format is the SD signal 720x480 NTSC / 720x576 PAL 270Kbits/sec.
The HD signals are possible with the HD-SDI signals upto 1,48 Gbits per second.
Capture cards which have SDI/HD-SDI input don't use analog components to capture the video which gives better quality through less conversions to digitize the video signals.

The YPrPb signal coming out of the HD100 (sometimes wrongly refered as YUV) is the analog version of the YCrCb.
So if you have a capture card who has digital inputs (HD-SDI or SDI) you need concersion boxes. It's best to keep the analog signals as short as possible and do the conversion close to the camera and use the SDI/HD-SDI with longer cables to connect to your other equipment

Blackmagic makes three flavours of Decklink HD in 4:2:2 starting at $595.
You might even be able to find a much cheaper analog component to SDI converter.

You could also try the Kona card - they make a version which includes analogue inputs - a Mac guy could tell you if these things are any good but they would do away with the need for an HD-SDI converter:

http://www.aja.com/products_kona.html#lh

and because it includes DVCProHD hardware support it would require much less processing power, and disk space.

They also make a mini SDI converter if you want to go with the Decklink card:

http://www.aja.com/hd10a.htm

and finally they make a Windows version that at this stage only supports uncompressed codecs:

http://www.aja.com/products_xena.html

The other place to look is Miranda but I have always found them to be more expensive.

Thank you gentlemen, vey helpful.

Trevor

and finally they make a Windows version that at this stage only supports uncompressed codecs:

http://www.aja.com/products_xena.html

The other place to look is Miranda but I have always found them to be more expensive.

With XenaHD you can capture also to CFHD.
http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHD.htm

So let me get this straight - the signal coming out of the component jacks is uncompressed 8-bit NTSC (or PAL, of you've got the 101) with 4:2:0 color sampling, right?

More importantly, has anyone tried Tim's hypothetical green-screen studio setup? I'm wondering if the 4:2:0 (specifically, the '0') would cause grief when attempting to pull the keys shot on said stage.

I'm hearing that post houses are doing fine chroma key work with properly lit greenscreens shot at 4:2:2 (e.g. 4:4:4 may only be necessary for the most demanding situations) but I'm wondering if the otherwise immaculate signal provided by Tim's workflow (only one A/D conversion) would be fatally undermined by too little chroma sampling at the outset.

So let me get this straight - the signal coming out of the component jacks is uncompressed 8-bit NTSC (or PAL, of you've got the 101) with 4:2:0 color sampling, right?.
No, that is not straight (the 420). That is a theory and not confirmed. I have chromakeyed with HD-100 content using Primatte, Boris and Liquid YUV (uncompressed) with very nice results. Do you have some camera footage to try chromakey? What keying software do you use?

No, the component signal is a full 1280x720 4:2:2 sampled at 10-bit, plenty of chroma resolution to pull a great key. See indiefilmlive.blogspot.com for discussion regarding an effect heavy feature that is using the HD100.

Note: 100 and 101 have both 50 and 60p modes, there is no PAL or NTSC here.

With XenaHD you can capture also to CFHD.
http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHD.htm

Very interesting Serge - when I emailed them, Gerry said they weren't supporting compressed codecs yet on the Xena, but they definitely had plans to. That was only 2 days ago.

So is that hardware support on the XenaHD or are you relying onthe processor converting the uncompressed AVI to ProspectHD "on the fly"?

Prospect HD does all the compression in software, in real-time, no hardware acceleration is required on the Xena card.

Prospect HD does all the compression in software, in real-time, no hardware acceleration is required on the Xena card.

Thanks David - what kind of processing power / memory do you need to achieve this (with a safety margin)?

Does ProspectHD take any advantage of your graphics card ie is the graphics card important?

Graphics card is not very important, any recent card will work fine. The system specs for Prospect HD are listing here : http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHDConfig.htm , but generally a dual proc Opteron system with 2GB is fine. It all depends I what you want to do.

What kind of spec's needed if you were to capture with AspectHD? Same?

No, the component signal is a full 1280x720 4:2:2 sampled at 10-bit, plenty of chroma resolution to pull a great key.

That is truly excellent information. It seems like such an obvious marketing point, I can't figure out why JVC doesn't mention it on their site.

See indiefilmlive.blogspot.com for discussion regarding an effect heavy feature that is using the HD100.

And this is a great link. I've just bought an HD-100, so I've VERY interested in seeing just how far it can be pushed. It looks like these guys are already doing it. Cheers.

What kind of spec's needed if you were to capture with AspectHD? Same?

No, Aspect HD can get away with much cheaper PCs (although fast ones are still nice.) We say the minmum PC is around 2.8 P4, yet we have customers using 1.7GHz P-M laptops and still getting real-time with Aspect HD.

Prospect HD does all the compression in software, in real-time, no hardware acceleration is required on the Xena card.

What kind of spec's needed if you were to capture with AspectHD? Same?

No, Aspect HD can get away with much cheaper PCs (although fast ones are still nice.) We say the minmum PC is around 2.8 P4, yet we have customers using 1.7GHz P-M laptops and still getting real-time with Aspect HD.

David, you talking about real-time transcodingfrom mpeg2/ts to Aspect HD through firewire on 1.7GHz P-M laptop or capture through component(JVC) or HDSDI (Canon)? What is device with component/hdsdi for laptop exist?

Graphics card is not very important, any recent card will work fine. The system specs for Prospect HD are listing here : http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHDConfig.htm , but generally a dual proc Opteron system with 2GB is fine. It all depends I what you want to do.

Phew - that's not going to work for me - I want to build something lightweight and portable. Hardware support on a card like XenaHD would make it viable.

John,

As the XenaHD card or Xena HS requires PCI-X you will not be able to build anything truely portable, as these cards require a work-station class motherboard. The soon to be available Xena LHe will work on PCI-e bus, so that will allow desktop class PCs to be used (and maybe shuttle class), when that card is out we may change our system requirements, although you will still need the fastest Dual Core CPU for real-time compression 10bit compression at 60p (note: if you only intend 10-bit at 720p24 then most P4 class CPU can do it.)

David, you talking about real-time transcodingfrom mpeg2/ts to Aspect HD through firewire on 1.7GHz P-M laptop or capture through component(JVC) or HDSDI (Canon)? What is device with component/hdsdi for laptop exist?

No, I was talking real-time playback on a laptop. For that low-end laptop you would still have transcoding delays, although for 720p24 it will be surprizingly fast.

Fortunately a component/HD-SDI input to a laptop doens't exist yet. When it does, CineForm is will be able to do some amazing RT captures. So please keep an eye out for the hardware that can do this.

Hi David. Yes I was asking about using AspectHD in the same vein as ProspectHD was being discussed. Component/SDI capture. So what are the specs needed for say Xena LHe capture to AspectHD. I would be quite happy capturing 8bit 4:2:2 (AspectHD) vs. the 10bit 4:2:2 (ProspectHD) for the time being. Being I own ApectHD and don't plan on a dual Opteron anytime soon, what do I need?
What would it take 480p60 from my HD10 vs. 720p60 HD100 (future cam)?

Aspect HD doesn't currently support live capture from anything but FireWire. Capture from a Xena card is Prospect HD feature.

Wanna fix it ? ;>)

John,

As the XenaHD card or Xena HS requires PCI-X you will not be able to build anything truely portable, as these cards require a work-station class motherboard. The soon to be available Xena LHe will work on PCI-e bus, so that will allow desktop class PCs to be used (and maybe shuttle class), when that card is out we may change our system requirements, although you will still need the fastest Dual Core CPU for real-time compression 10bit compression at 60p (note: if you only intend 10-bit at 720p24 then most P4 class CPU can do it.)

There's already shuttle boards that support 2 PCI-e slots and the LHe is already advertised on AJA website - I didn't realise it hadn't been released yet.

My point was that seeking hardware support from a card like the Xena would negate the need for a really fast dual proc machine. Technically or commercially that may not be possible (I'm guessing they may support DVCProHD as they do this already for their Mac based Kona cards) but I thought it was a reasonable idea.

Aspect HD doesn't currently support live capture from anything but FireWire. Capture from a Xena card is Prospect HD feature.

David, but old version of Aspect HD 1.0 or 1.2 have no restriction for live capture through DS and VFW ?

There seems to be some confusion, Aspect HD does support capture using the Xena card, only Prospect HD does. This is no way affects the DS or VFW codecs.

I just read the thread and gained more confusion! Tim (or anybody), could you answer me this? A Blackmagic sales/support person told me the multibridge takes away the need for their capture card. Is what you did possible with just this and you used the card because it already existed in your rig?

I would be pulling my hair out if I had any!

Rich,

Who is your question for? Maybe you can re-ask. What are you hoping to achieve, and what system to you hoping to use?

I just read the thread and gained more confusion! Tim (or anybody), could you answer me this? A Blackmagic sales/support person told me the multibridge takes away the need for their capture card. Is what you did possible with just this and you used the card because it already existed in your rig?

I would be pulling my hair out if I had any!


They're wrong. The standard "Multibridge HD" interfaces with the SDI in and out on the Decklink HD. The multibridge converts analog sources to digital SDI and vise-versa.

The sales person may have been referring to the fact that Blackmagic is now bundling the Decklink Plus card with the original SD multibridge, and a PCI Express card with the Multibridge Extreme (for SD & HD.)

However, you still need at least a Decklink HD to interface with the standard Multibridge HD.
Or maybe I should say you need a Multibridge HD to use analog signals with a Decklink HD.

It worked great, but you have to remember that you can only get true uncompressed when shooting "live," not playing back from tape (since the signal has already been through the MPEG2 encoder.)

Tim, Can you recommend a set-up for LIVE capturing on location? I was thinking of using my laptop as a controller, GRaid as the harddisk for the capturing and perhpas some video card with firewire to transfer the live signal. I am also trying to get a set up for capturing LIVE audio into Pro Tools instead of using a mixer and recording device on set, but rather my laptop and a G-Raid to record onto, since I will be able to EQ and Mix it live uncompressed.

Any ideas?

Thanks Duke

Tim, Can you recommend a set-up for LIVE capturing on location? I was thinking of using my laptop as a controller, GRaid as the harddisk for the capturing and perhpas some video card with firewire to transfer the live signal. I am also trying to get a set up for capturing LIVE audio into Pro Tools instead of using a mixer and recording device on set, but rather my laptop and a G-Raid to record onto, since I will be able to EQ and Mix it live uncompressed.

Any ideas?

Thanks Duke

Brian - the firewire signal is exactly the same as the one being recorded to tape. If your object was to capture the uncompressed signal that won't work. If you merely want to capture what's going to tape live then you won't need a GRaid - any decent external firewire drive should be capable fo capturing the signal. If your laptop is a Mac it should have firewire built in so you won't need anything else except for some software to capture with.

If you want to capture the component HD signal and you are Mac based, you could capture directly to DVCProHD using AJA's KonaLH card (the one with the analogue component HD interface), but you would need a G4 or G5 on location as these cards require a PCI slot.

I don't know if anyone here has tested that setup so it would pay to do that first.

Brian... you could capture directly to DVCProHD using AJA's KonaLH card (the one with the analogue component HD interface).

But can the AJA's KonaLH capture directly to uncompressed 8bit or 10bit HD too, or does it only capture in DVCProHD format?

Thank you.

But can the AJA's KonaLH capture directly to uncompressed 8bit or 10bit HD too, or does it only capture in DVCProHD format?

Thank you.

This would be a question better directed to tech support at AJA for the definitive answer.

For my take based on the website information it will digitise to any Quicktime format (both in 8bit and 10bit and it will downconvert on the fly to SD) BUT DVCProHD is the only one that is supported by hardware compression on the card (or the only one they advertise). So to digitise to another codec you need:
1. one that supports JVC's HD60P format,
2. and then if it's a compressed codec you need a LOT of processing power,
3. if it's uncompressed you'd need a fibre channel RAID system and a LOT of storage, all of which can be problematic.

It appears it does support HDV playback in hardware.

Thank you.

Hello,

I need some proffesional advise,
I'm planing to purchase the Multibridge Extreme, and kind of cofused if I'm doing the right thing,
I use Xl H-1 camcorder with HP XW 8200 Workstation with Nvidia FX4500 Quadro , Premiere Pro 2.0 After Effects 7.0 and 2 23" HP 2335 Monitors.
I would like to get the best quality from XL H1, and Output to HD DVD, such as Events, like Weedings and Bithdays.

Wich one would you recomend to get the Matrox Axio? or the Decklink Multibridge Extreme? and do I need special DVD burner in order to burn HD DVD?

Thank you in advance

While the Multibridge extreme would give you HD-SDI ingest, you don't need it for HDV unless you are planning to do studio type shoots and record straight to your HP live off the camera head. If this is your plan there are cheaper solutions from both BMD and AJA. The Decklink HD Extreme is only $US995 list and supports 4:2:2 HD-SDI while the Xena LH series seems to be basically equivalent feature for feature - both support analogue HD/SD ingest as well as 4:2:2 HD-SDI whcih is all the camera outputs. Most people who opt for the multibidge, need it to provide a hub for a bunch of equipment, not just an HDV camera. Both the Decklink card and the Multibridge Extreme require a PCI-Express slot and I don't think the HP supports that. The Xena comes in a PCI-x version so it would work. The Multibridge Extreme will work in standalone mode, but then how do you get the material into your system?

But if you plan to shoot to tape and ingest afterwards and from the sound of it you do, then all you need is plain old firewire 1394a port and software capable of digitising it - that would be by far your best option. What is your plan for a tape deck? That seems to be the biggest hurdle with the Canon. BTW this forum is for the JVC so not too many here actually using the XLH1

I'm also looking to move up. Since my PC died last night, I am going to have to do this sooner than I expected... I'm looking at the Xena HS and the Decklink HD Plus, both under $1,000. Now, I'm trying to figure out what else needs needs to be replaced. I need a PCI Express for either capture card, but find nothing with PCI and AGP to support a regular video card. So, will I have to replace a brand new AGP card with one that can use a PCI x16 slot? Whatever that is...

But if you plan to shoot to tape and ingest afterwards and from the sound of it you do, then all you need is plain old firewire 1394a port and software capable of digitising it - that would be by far your best option.
Thanks John, I've been trying to make sense out of the whole thing, but that seems to be a very workable system for me. Any particular digitising software anyone would reccomend? I notice that several of the capture cards come with some software. Is that bundled SW adequate?
Lew

Any particular digitising software anyone would reccomend? I notice that several of the capture cards come with some software. Is that bundled SW adequate?
Lew
I would recommend Avid Liquid 7.1 for HDV - but I haven't used it myself. It is the only NLE out there that seems comfortable with HDV. Stephen L. Noe has some very handy video tutorials on this site that describe a number of workflows. You can only buy Liquid 7.0 off the shelf - the .1 update is free from Avid's website (I think it's out of beta).

Bottom line is you don't need a capture card if you already have firewire on board (a lot of motherboards do). If you need a 3rd party card buy SIIG, preferably PCI-x if you have slots on your intended target machine. They seem to be qulaified by most NLE's.

I'm also looking to move up. Since my PC died last night, I am going to have to do this sooner than I expected... I'm looking at the Xena HS and the Decklink HD Plus, both under $1,000. Now, I'm trying to figure out what else needs needs to be replaced. I need a PCI Express for either capture card, but find nothing with PCI and AGP to support a regular video card. So, will I have to replace a brand new AGP card with one that can use a PCI x16 slot? Whatever that is...

Keith - most PCI Express x16 motherboards do not bother with AGP because it is not as fast or wide. Here is a board that does support both natively(beware some boards use a masked PCI-x slot which simply bridges the PCIe slot to the PCIx buss):

http://www.asrock.com/product/939Dual-SATA2.htm

I can't recommend this board, it has got good reviews but in the past this manufacturer has made some duds, plus it is an Athlon board so if you have an application that requires SSE2 support (eg Encore DVD2) your SOL. If you do go completely PCIe the catch is you need a board with at least 2 x PCIe16 slots - one for video and one for your capture card.Some MB's only include 1 slot assuming you'll use that for your graphics card.

I would recommend upgrading the video card OR going for the Xena LH which only needs PCI-X (which is not to be confused with PCI-Express (Xena LHe). I would also suggest you look at the Decklink HD Extreme ($US995 list) rather than the Pro -it has analogue inputs as well and comes in both varieties PCI-x and PCI Express. The only advantage the Pro has is if you have a deck which supports dual link HD-SDI you can ingest 4:4:4 footage. The extreme is 4:2:2 only.

I would suggest if it is at all possible you see a demo of these cards and their software functionality before making a decision.

Thanks John,but I decided to go back to Abit boards, and will get the KN8. Of course, needing a new video card, I'll get an ATI X800. Now, to get a Xena HS...

Thanks John,but I decided to go back to Abit boards, and will get the KN8. Of course, needing a new video card, I'll get an ATI X800. Now, to get a Xena HS...

Keith - I think even Adobe are recommending the NVidia QuadroFX cards. The X800 is a stellar performer in the gaming arena where you can overclock, but I can't help feeling the manufacturers are trying to tunnel you down a certain path to make their support job easier - and perhaps your life easier.Avid also recommend FX3000 minimum these days.

http://www.adobeopenhd.com/certified_solutions.php

I don't know but I think it's the OpenGL implementation that they are using that perform a lot of the real time effects that are built into these systems. Boris Blue also has a very narrow range of Quadro cards. Having said the X800 may work perfectly well for you, just thought I'd give you a heads up.

Thanks for that heads up. I decided on the ATI for two reasons- I have always found ATI to be reliable, and the price wasn't bad... and the place has them in stock. Ok, three reasons ;)