Can anyone offer any advice on a good NLE system? I will use it mostly for home video but use a Sony DCR VX2000 and want to maintain the best image quality I can for eventual DVD authoring.

I have read a lot about Matrox RTX100 and Canopus DVStorm and was considering one of these devices but it seems that many people are very happy with Vegas Video 3, which not only is much cheaper, but also probably easier to install (the other devices being hardware based). The other issue is I may have to upgrade my computer (P4, 1.8 GHz, 1G RAM) to use the Matrox or Canopus effectively. I want to be able to have a couple layers of video and audio with 3-4 texts if I want, as well as color correction and some cool 3D transitions. Since I am a hobbyist I don't need lightening fast rendering, but would at least like some real time previewing of effects and not painfully long rendering when it is needed.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

With your setup, and what you require, vv3 will be more than enough.

Also, not that i 'recommend' doing this, but if your p4 1.8ghz is a northwood, they overclock like hell and back on standard cooling, and could speeze that bugger to at least 2.4ghz with one simple bios change. Just make sure you find a friend who knows what he is doing.

kermie

The Canopus DV Storm 2 will do everything you want -- it is a true real-time system (with real-time output over Firewire, and scalable features which grow as your system increases power). Your current config should be fine unless the motherboard and video card aren't compatible (see Canopus website under Support). All you need is another 5400rpm hard drive for video storage. I'm a Canopus user and couldn't be happier with it. Much greater stability, customer support and feature set over any of its competitors. Hope this helps,

I second Chris' view of Canopus products.

You did overlook the Raptor which is an older but quite good product. They go for around $100 or so used. They rarely break so they are fairly safe to buy.

For more capability, DVRex sells used for around $350-$500. These are as good as the Raptor but they also include analog in and out.

In both cases, if you register the hardware, you can download Rex or Raptor Edit for free. Those editing packages are simple but quite fast and very high quality. I use the RT version of the software as my main editing tool. Canopus' CODEC is considered to be one of the best if not the best CODEC for DV. And the non-realtime versions will run nicely on a PII-400.

VV3 still requires a firewire card so you will have to install one of those if you select that path.

RaptorRT is still a supported product, right?

_________ Storm lover
|
V

Thanks for the input everyone. It is very helpful and I really appreciate it.

I'm somewhat of a computer novice and installing the Canopus card intimidates me a little (which is why Vegas Video caught my eye). I've changed my video PCI card (with firewire port) before without a problem. Is the Canopus DVStorm2 (probably the Canopus product I would choose) very difficult to install?

Also, this will probably sound stupid, but will I need to buy Adobe Premiere also in order to edit if I go with Canopus or does it have its own editing software?

Thanks again.

canopus comes with it's own software as well as adobe premiere. so you wouldn't have to buy it seperately, just have to make sure you buy the right storm package.

it almost feels like canopus is weeding out the "middle of the road" packages. i do not know how the storm is, so i cannot speak on the behalf of that. but as far as the raptor/RT with it cryptic sequence of installing the thing, switching of OS HALs and bios settings seems like a little more trouble then it's worth.

The DV Storm and RTX100 products will include Adobe Premiere. You won't have to buy it seperatly.

However...
Why do you need a real time editing system? Most people think they do, but actually don't. I did at first, and then realized a software app was more than enough for my editing needs. The $800 difference between DV Storm and Vegas Video can pay for a perfectly capable editing computer entirely, although the one you have is a fine starting point and just needs more HD space.
Also, you won't have any hardware problems like you might installing a real time card.
Not to say that the DV Storm and RTX100 aren't excellent products, just that you might be better off putting that money in other aspects of your production, or in your savings account if you don't need real time goodness.

Dylan gives good advice about VV3, but failed to mention that Premiere 6.5 has at least as much realtime capability as Vegas. Avid Xpress DV 3.5 also is in the same boat.

You'll need hardware help for the "couple layers of video and audio with 3-4 texts if I want, as well as color correction and some cool 3D transitions". If you think you can get by with less, a software solution is a good place to start.

Vegas works well. It's a solid tool with a deep feature set, easy to get started with, but goes about things differently than other NLE's. I own a copy, but much prefer Premiere. I still keep Vegas around because it's useful for a number of auxilliary tasks.

Premiere is pretty much the standard on PCs. I think not so much because it's better than any other, but simply because it's a very open system. If you can buy something aftermarket, it almost invariably supports Premiere.

Avid Xpress is somewhat of a stepchild unless you have a real need to interact with its larger brethren. As a piece of software, it stands heads and shoulders above Premiere and Vegas in everything that counts: capability, stability, usability; you name it. Its one failing for me is that it only works with OMF files. The rest of the PC world works with AVI. This is perhaps ideal if you, again, need to interchange media files with other Avid systems. What it means for me is that none of my other tools work. Tools to capture from DV or analog; post process sound; encode for DVD; or even to simply view things without starting the editor. You need to also know that as of 3.5, Xpress still uses QuickTime to import DV AVI into OMF. QT has a 2 GB file size limit, which also means the import will fail (several minutes later) if you try to import a larger file. None of this matters if you have no intention of operating outside the application. If so, nothing else even comes close.

You will do well with any of these three. Premiere has the added advantage of supporting RT hardware. The DVStorm2 can be purchased without Premiere, making that a viable upgrade path.

Last, when looking at RT hardware, the real question that needs to be answered isn't so much about the number of simultaneous layers it can handle, but rather how well that card's set of RT effects and transitions fits your needs. MPEG encoding time is also something to consider, but may be less important because this can be done batch fashion, while you sleep. All this assumes that you've already decided that Premiere is what you want to use. This is far from a given.

Dont want to get into a flame war here but MIke's statement is absolutely bizzare: (referring to Avid)

As a piece of software, it stands heads and shoulders above Premiere and Vegas in everything that counts: capability, stability, usability; you name it.

1. Capability----Look at Vegas's feature set versus Avids---its no a brainer--audio, titling, transitions, rt previews that ALL WORK!

2. STability---come on, you have to be kidding-----Vegas is known to be among the most stable NLE's in the marketplace---Maybe you dont have your system configured correctly.

3. Usability---now that's the biggest joke of your post----if anything, Avid is known to have a huge learning curb whereas Vegas has among the simpliest.


I would appreciate you supporting your statements when you make them. I am getting tired of all these so called experts giving bad advice to novices.

David,
That's a little harsh on Mike, since he is mostly correct.

However you make some good points for Vegas. It's hard to compare stability, I've had Vegas freeze on me several times, it's not perfect (yet). But as for ease of use and compatibility with hardware? Definitely Vegas.
If you are a beginner, Vegas is definitely simpler than Avid, and probably a better choice than Premiere and Ulead as well. If you are a more computer freindly or experienced editor, then you just look at the feature sets of every option and decide which is best for you.

I am really curious as to the real differences between Premiere, Vegas Video, and Avid XPress DV, and it looks like we might get somewhere with some objective comparison of different features. What would be really interesting is if someone familiar with the systems could put together a tutorial showing how to perform the same editing tasks--a few common ones and a few complex ones--on all three different systems, and what the upsides and downsides of each system is for each particular task.

I'm still not sure what justifies the considerably higher pricing of the Avid software. So far the only reasoning anyone on these boards has been able to come up with is "Because it's Avid," which I find to be something of an unsatisfactory non-answer.

Robert, I think Videoguys.com has a comparison of Premiere vs Avid (I could be wrong).

As far as pricing goes, Avid could be more expensive because of higher developping costs, or it could be priced that way to keep it at a higher level than Premiere so professionals will take it more seriously. (If Rolls Royces were $25,000 no one would buy one.)Or maybe neither.

"Maybe you don't have your system configured correctly."

Yup, that's the main reason for nle crashes.. regardless of the system! Just cruise the forums, people log on saying, "This suck's I never had this problem with my old system!" This is usually followed with posts of the nature..."Strange, I never had that happen to me..." Followed by flames saying "It ALWAYS happens to me!" (Yes, even on Macs.)

Bill

For all of its technical achievements, the Canopus DVStorm2 is about as user-unfriendly as it gets. Documentation is recycled material from earlier Canopus boards -- for $1200+ the company couldn't be bothered to issue anything more than addenda to Raptor and DVRex operating manuals: valuable information buried all over the place, on this piece of paper -- and that one.

And don't count on much in the way of quality support. The Canopus support forum is, with a few exceptions, users-only who often spew bad advice and misinformation. It's sad, really. Here's a company with some good ideas that fails to carry them through to end-user land. I tried the platform and am glad to be off of it.

Let me simplify the comparison-----


Sound--Vegas by a long shot
Organization of Bins----Avid by a long shot----Vegas 4.0 will address this
Real Time Previews--as I said before, all work on Vegas--not on Avid--you have to render some of them
Stability-Equal
Price--Vegas
Transitions--Vegas has more--but I really dont care
Titling-Vegas by a long shot
Compositing--Vegas by a long shot although I use AE for my complex compositing
Portability to different systems---Vegas by a long shot--you can run it on practically anything with a 750mghz processor or better
Portability of projects to other Avid Systems--Avid of course


There you go----

You can also go to Sonic Foundrys site and see a feature by feature comparison---


I apologize if I offended anyone--I just get so damn tired of Avids ability to get people to think that if they dont have an Avid, (and dont pay Avid prices) somehow they aren't professional---Thats absurd.
Sorry if I over reacted---I am just so

<<<-- Originally posted by David Mintzer :
[Sound--Vegas by a long shot]

Without a doubt; I keep Vegas around for audio post processing.

[Organization of Bins----Avid by a long shot----Vegas 4.0 will address this]

In general, workflow and project management is missing. Bins, storyboarding, script based editing, multiple sequences, nested sequences. "Address this" has a lot of ground to cover.

[Real Time Previews--as I said before, all work on Vegas--not on Avid--you have to render some of them]

Vegas's drop frame realtime is about on par with Premiere 6.5 realtime.

[Titling-Vegas by a long shot]
[Compositing--Vegas by a long shot although I use AE for my complex compositing]

Both do a good, tasteful job on simple titles. AE is the only way to go for complex sequences, which leaves Avid out in the cold. Premiere, not surprisingly, integrates the best with AE (a significant understatement).

It wouldn't be fair to not mention Avid's color correction. Premiere's is simplistic and minimalist; Vegas is usable, but barely. Avid has software vector- and waveform scopes, eight in all; color patch and NaturalMatch hue matching; corrections in RGB and HSL space; gamma, gain, and setup on each of luma, chroma, and independent color channels; broadcast legal level clamping; and undoubtedly more that don't come to mind.

Interesting topic,

I have never used Avid so I wont comment on it except to say it is overpriced.

I have Canopus Realtime system. Premiere
Vegas Video
AE
and a few other supporting software programs.

My vote would be for Vegas.
It is without a doubt the best NLE bargain out there.
The price will go up in the next version so buy it in the next month if it is your choice. Upgrades will be reasonable from 3.0 to 4.0.

Premiere has a long history of stability issues.
Vegas can be installed painlessly with a $20 US dollar OHCI firewire card.

I can work faster and more creatively in Vegas than I can in Premiere.
But that is just me.
Canopus had a chance to further develop their own NLE but dropped the ball and went to bed with Adobe.

I use Vegas most.
Good luck and enjoy.

My two cents,
Rick

Yes, I forgot about Avid's superior color correction---one for Avid--
(never an issue for me because I shoot perfectly exposed video---and I do believe in Santa Claus)

Avid is a professional tool. If you have the skill to edit on Avids you can probably get a job anywhere in the country. Vegas Video won't get you that. It doesn't mean that VV is not a capable tool. It just won't get you the respect that being an Avid editor will, or the career possibilities. So, that in part is also what your paying for. Overpriced? Not hardly, because it offers you a skill set and a path that can lead to you being a professional editor.

I look back at the young editors that worked for me (and learned Avid editing) and see where they are today. They wouldn't be where they are if they had learned Premiere, Razor, VV etc. and that comes at a price.

If your a young person wanting to edit professionally, then learn Avid or Final Cut Pro. If you do and your good you'll have a career you love. What could be better than that?

Jeff

"Drop Frame Realtime"... what exactly does that mean? I know that Avid supports full rate "real time" but gets around processing jams by running single field. You can also run out through a parahelia card... This is "realtime" on over a hundred effects, (each of them keyframeable) several layers.

Avid's titling tool is simplistic. Which is why Boris graffitti is included... so that's "part" of the purchase price, as was Comotion, Light Factory, DVDitSE, CleanerEZ, and several other apps that came bundled.(Boris RED is also included now in the powerpack)

But as long as were comparing How well does Vegas cut film? Can you take your files from Vegas directly to a pro suite like a symphony? Keep that in mind when complaining about Avid's "compatibility" with other low end systems, it's designed to be compatible with a "high end " system. Not everyone needs this compatibility... if you don't need it don't buy it.

Look, there are lots of "revues" out there in different magazines... all of them raves. Buy what you need, pay as little as you can to get it.

I needed Avids professionaly integrated color correction and compatability with high-end systems, as well as it's film cutting capabilities. I got a good deal on a system, and I am happy with it.

I am sure everyone else is happy with their systems... if not, they are free to purchase another.

By the way, regarding portability, does Vegas run on Mac? Cause Avid includes a copy for Mac in it's purchase price.

Just a thought.

The definition of a professional editor is one who gets paid.

If you have a 'working for someone else' mentality then what you are saying makes sense.

If you have an 'owner operator mentality' then what your saying is not as applicable.

I can think of a handful of editors that make a Heck of a lot more than an employee professional editor.

Unless you know what direction a person wishes to go in this business, riding the Avid name may or may not be helpful.

Bill: "Drop frame realtime" = drops frames in realtime to maintain realtime display performance. Vegas realtime preview does this; compared to Premiere's native non-realtime realtime. Clear as mud yet? :)

I never intended this to become a "my NLE Is better then your NLE" thread--I was merely responding to the claim that Vegas is in someway not a professional NLE and that it isn't as stable as Avid. In fact, I would say that Vegas is more stable then Avid 3.5--(go to the Avid site and read some of the posts) although Avid 3.0- was extremely stable.

My nine year old son has been paid to edit video with iMovie. I don't think he has applied for his union card yet.

Your comments are very accurate. I can teach someone how to edit. But I can't teach someone how to be an entrepreneur. Not everyone has the ability or the desire to be self employed. So, if one has the desire and skills to be an editor, but not self employed, Avid is a much better skill set to present to an employer.

I don't make these comments lightly. I used to own a production company. I started it from scratch and grew it to 17 employees. I sold it. Today I freelance as an editor and cameraman. I have clients who pay me to edit. Funny thing is, no one has ever asked if I know how to edit on Vegas Video. Why is that?

Vegas video is popular with Mom and Pop video operations. It fits the budget, gets the job done and offers a lot of flash. It is a solid editor. But knowing how to edit on
Vegas Video won't get you anywhere. Being a successful entrepreneur will.

Jeff

"My nine year old son has been paid to edit video with iMovie."

Cute story but I see no relevance to our conversation.

My nine year old son plays outside in the fresh air.
He gets paid for raking leaves.

It sounds like your saying if you don't use Avid your just a kid playing with toys.

I hope this is not the case.
Your talent reputation will get you respect. Your editing equipment is secondary. Most of my clients know Jack about editing equipment. Once in a while I'm asked if I use Avid. I then give a list of editing apps I use and the eyes glaze over and the subject ends returning to important issues like content, price and deadlines.

On long form documentary you are better off with Avid-maybe,
Film probably.

95% of DV work, Whatever NLE your comfortable with that has the features you need.

>"Vegas Video won't get you anywhere. Being a successful entrepreneur will".

I would say a combination of the two is essential.

I love Vegas, You love Avid.
Avid is a good one. In DV it is just one of many good ones.

I spent several hours at the NYC DV show testing, talking to Reps and watching it do most of it's tricks.

Nothing earth shattering.
FCP same thing, Nothing earth shattering.
Edition looks promising.
The good news is the competition makes them all better.

Who knows My next system could be an Avid but I wont be picking it because of the 'Brand'.

I have several NLE's at my disposal. Each has their strength and weakness.

I feel fortunate really.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rick O'Brien : Interesting topic,

I have never used Avid so I wont comment on it except to say it is overpriced.
Rick -->>>

Overpriced compared to what? A businessman and entrepreneur can make such a statement without qualification?

Your point on Premiere having a "long history of stability issues" is non sequitor. It has a long history. Vegas has a short history, including Vegas 2. I forget what it was called before that... care to remind me?

Honestly, who cares!

Whatever floats your boat.....

zac

The point of my nine year old son getting paid is that he is not a professional. The IRS might think so, but not us. Just because you get paid doesn't make you a pro. Just because you edit with Avid (or VV3) doesn't make you a pro. I don't own an Avid anymore and I haven't been asked to edit on an Avid in 3 or 4 months. I am an Avid Certified editor and I've taught Avid editing.

The reason I dwell on this subject is the number of young people who read the posts here. I get e-mails from them fairly often asking for career advice. How do they get started is one of the most frequently asked questions. I advise them to look at four year colleges and two year trade schools to get the skills they need. What school (two or four year) teaches Vegas Video editing? I don't know of any. There are weekend seminars, but that's more for the established editor or advanced amateurs.

When I owned my production company every spring I would get hundreds of resumes and reels mailed to me. I always made a point of watching their reel and sending a response back. If they called and asked for an interview I would give it. I made it clear if I had an opening or not but suggested they interview anyway to get the experience.

When I had an opening I had a ready pool of talent to draw from. I hired the people with Avid experience in most cases. Why? They had gone to the better schools, used newer, better equipment, had more experience and their reels looked better. I also wouldn't have the expense of training them to edit on our Avids.

Things haven't changed much today. Pick up a trade publication and look at the help wanted. There are ads for Avid editors and FCP editors, but not VV3. Go over to 2-pop and look at the job listings. There are ads for Avid editors and FCP editors but not VV3. The jobs in private industry, TV, even government are for Avid and FCP editors.

This doesn't mean that VV3 is not a good editing package or that great, award winning productions can't be cut on it. It's just not where the jobs are and that needs to be considered by people when they set out to learn a skill set.

Jeff

Okay--first of all, there are many "professionals" out there who dont use Avid---there are so many options on the market today that Avid, unless they become more nimble, will no longer dominate the so called professional market. The day of hardware driven editing is ending as processors become more powerful and software solutions predominate.

Beyond that, this debate misses an essential point. Editing is a craft/art that has little to do with what platform you use or technical expertise. It has to do with the way mold images together to acheive one's goal. This can be done on any decent NLE-- I would hire the guy with native ability who edits on ULEAD before an Avid technician any day. You can always learn the Avid. I am not so sure you can be taught how to be a good editor. You either have it or you dont.

I can teach people to be good editors. I've done it for years. They are competent, efficient, well organized, fast and good with clients. They make their employers lots of money. I can't teach people to be a great editor. That takes more, it comes from within. As you point out, editing is a craft and an art. I can teach the craft, the art takes more.

When it comes to hiring, business today doesn't have the luxury to retrain or train employees. If I'm an employer and I've got jobs piling up and I'm down an editor I'll hire the Avid technician. he can sit in the chair and go right to work and knock out the work. It may not be great art, but the jobs get done. I didn't have to open the book and train someone at my expense.

Let's look at great editors. What's your 10 favorite films of the last 10 years? Chances are they were all cut on an Avid. Your favorite TV shows? Cut on an Avid. The short history of NLE is stacked in Avids favor. They are the top dog by the fact of being there first. They will be around for a long while.

Vegas Video on the other hand is a company that is struggling for its very survival http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5569 There stock is trading for pennies. If I'm a small business person is this the type of company I should invest by hard earned capital in? Where will they be three years from now when I'm ready to upgrade?

Jeff

Saying that you can teach anyone to be a good editor is like saying I can teach anyone to be a good painter--you can teach them the technical skills but you can't teach them the art.

As far as the the top ten films edited on Avid--I could care less---most of them are terrible and many of them are edited poorly.

As far as Sonic Foundry's future goes---in the next 60 days they should have an announcement---in fact, version 4.0 is in beta and from what I hear, it addresses practically all of the weaknesses (as few as there are) Vegas will be around for a long time--it's that good.


You keep mixing up the business of film/video with the art of it.

I said I could teach people to be good editors, not great. A good editor, to me, is someone who knows the craft. I believe that can be taught. Great editing is an art and is difficult if not impossible to teach.

I didn't say top 10 films, I said your 10 favorite films.

Jeff

This thread has been very good - but we are missing the most important information to help with the buying decision -

What kind of video work do you do and what features do you feel are important?

This is critical to deciding between these excellent solutions. All work great and have their own important features that set them apart.

For making photo montages and hi light sequences set perfectly to audio Vegas Video is in a league by itself. The perfect toolset, features and performance for the job. It's also great for "Gen X" style videos with mutliple layers, composits and flying stuff all set to music and equally as complex audio. Having an understanding of computer based audio programs will make using Vegas a breeze.

The DV Strom2 has become the weapon of choice for even videogrpahers. These guys shoot with 2 or more cameras and the multiple levels of video are very important.

RTX.100 has gained serious ground in the Wedding/event marketplace. While it doesn't have the pure 5 layer power of the DV Storm, you do get excellent controls and tools for the real-time 3D & effects. Matrox aquisition and export tools are excellent. Excellent choice for hobbiest enthusiasts as well.

Avid Xpress DV is the best pure video editing solution on the market - especially for long format work. Media & project management are critical components of serious, long format video productions and Avid has the best in the industry. Much of the Avid learning curve is 'un-learning' Premiere. Once you stop trying to edit like you did on Premiere and start editing the "Acid" way, it all comes together very quickly.


I hope I've shed some more light on the choices for you. Please fell free to give us a call 800 323-2325 We can go over all these details in far greater detail for you.

Gary
Videoguys.com

Over the years I've searched dictionaries of different periods and languages for a satisfactory definition of professional, but I never came across one that satiated me until reading the court transcripts of a famous patent suit, in which the prosecutor called into question a witness's standard of professional care. In my view, being a "professional" comes down to a mindset of personal responsibility: a professional engineer is beholden to standards of safety and security for devices of his/her design; a professional physician is responsible for faultless care of his/her patients (first do no harm and all that). But what is a professional artist? A professional filmmaker, film director, film editor? I can think of no standards of professionalism by which an artist can be held accountable. (I don't buy into the whole guild member/union card holder bit. George Lucas tore up his guild card after the release of The Empire Strikes Back, did he suddenly stop being a professional filmmaker?)

When a bridge collapses because of an engineer's negligence and kills people, the engineer should be accountable. When a doctor leaves a surgical instrument inside of a patient after an operation, the doctor should be accountable. The engineer is not an amateur nor an apprentice; surgery is not the doctor's hobby. They are operating in a professional mode. There are objective criteria by which their performances may be judged.

An artist-for-hire (i.e., a professional artist) is accountable to no one save patron/client, and while the artist-for-hire should strive to meet the criteria and standards set by patron/client, such standards are may be entirely subjective and thus cannot fall under the domain of "standards of professionalism." Let's take an example--someone mentioned a child being hired for an editing job. The patron/client may deem the final result to be "not good enough," but this is a subjective and unsubstantiatable objection. (A more objective criteria may be established by the client: this clip should be spliced to this clip at this point, and this source should be composited to this source and spliced to this clip and this point, and so on; but in this case, the client is the editor and the artist is a proxy.)

I have come to believe and reaffirm my belief that regardless of the sums of money involved, filmmaking, like any artistic endeavor, is an avocation, not a profession, and any claim of "professionalism" is easily dismissed under subjective grounds.

Turning our attention to Avid. Avid became an "industry standard" by taking a foothold early in the market and sustaining aggressive sales and service campaigns over several decades. But is it a "professional" editing environment? In the final equation, the only thing that matters is that film (and by film I mean a series of images, digital video etc. included) is cut together: cleanly, quickly, efficiently. Many production facilities use Avid software and hardware and rely on Avid service. Thus far I'm not convinced that Avid's hegemony in the professional media production world is anything more than branding and marketing, in part because I've never seen a piece of film edited on an Avid that couldn't have been edited together just as swiftly in other lower-cost editing environments.

So is Avid a "more professional" editing environment than Premiere, Vegas Video, etc.? To determine this, we ask: should editors working on an Avid be held to a higher standard of accountability than editors using Premiere, Vegas Video, etc.?

Jeff I pretty much agree with your assessment of job opportunities.

I live in the Philadelphia area. Opening up the largest Philly paper here and there is not one help wanted add for an editor.

On the other hand there is a healthy demand for general video work.

I'm sure your advice is well intended. I'm really not sure how many people who go to film school wind up in a high paying video editing job because of there Avid skill set. No pun intended.

Are editors who don't have animation experience that high on the food chain?

I'm really asking questions here not challenging anyone.

It is important to understand what the individual has in mind as per career. This is a very diverse industry. I know guys who do nothing but Weddings who make a very good living. I know other folks who are strictly involved in Local TV spots. Product promotion. Duplication and conversion,legal video services, on and on. I would call them all professionals.


...>"Overpriced compared to what? A businessman and entrepreneur can make such a statement without qualification?"


The competition with generally the same feature set. For one example
Can you say Canopus storm2 with premiere.

>Your point on Premiere having a "long history of stability issues" is non sequitor.

Read the post, I was sharing my editing experience. I use Premier, Canopus, Vegas, AE and others.

>"It has a long history. Vegas has a short history, including Vegas 2. I forget what it was called before that... care to remind me?"


If you want to call it a fault that within a very short period of time Sonic Foundry created a very feature rich and capable editor that has had a clean stability record, fine. That is your prerogative.
I would call that a triumph.

I have owned many incarnations of premiere.
Really buggy was the norm in every version up to 6.
Even now their are issues with long form projects using multiple streams and effects.
6 and 6.5 are definitely a step in the right direction.
But come on: "Non sequitor"? Anyone who needs to get projects out and sleep at night would disagree.
Stability is a major factor in editing gear.

Regards,

<<<-- Originally posted by Robert Knecht Schmidt : I've never seen a piece of film edited on an Avid that couldn't have been edited together just as swiftly in other lower-cost editing environments. -->>>

Robert,

The scenes can be cut on almost any NLE. But you can't use the other NLE's to go back to the negative and actually cut it. Avid and FCP (to a lesser degree) have a hold on the film community because the others can't handle film.

Jeff

Rick,

Your correct, most higher paying jobs (editing) are not advertised in local papers. Trade publications, internet and word of mouth are the norm for hiring Avid editors.

When I moved from Cincinnati to Palm Harbor in '01 I walked into several production companies with my reel and resume (noting that I'm Avid certified and FCP) and had freelance work within a couple of weeks. I don't think I would have had the work if my background was all Vegas Video, Premiere, Canopus etc.

I would agree that the mostly heavily advertised local jobs are for wedding, event and industrial video work. These are the Mom and Pop companies that are the bulk of VV3, Premiere and Canopus users, just as Gary points out. That's their intended market and they do a great job at it.

Graduates of Film Schools probably have higher aspirations and professional goals, than editing wedding videos and other events. I think graduates of trade schools fill the bulk of those positions and those at local cable organizations. But in many cases peoples careers are restricted by not relocating. The majority of films are edited in LA, music videos, independent films etc. all have their geographic centers. If you're not willing to relocate, Hollywood is unlikely to beat a path to your door.

Jeff

Robert's analysis of Avid is right on.

Like Robert, I too have sifted through various definitions of "professional" and have adopted my own. It suits my purposes, and you are free to reject it, as we are all free to reject Robert's, even as he has rejected others.

On the one hand, you have the definition created by the sports world, whereby one may lose their "amateur" status, simply by being payed once, or even accepting other types of compensation. Once you take money, you become "professional", even if the amount is small.

This seems a bit severe, and the average person on the street has a "reasonable" expectation that a "professional" is one who makes their living in a particular field. (One assumes they have reached this level by a combination of experience and training )
Like Robert, I too turn to the law for the definition of "reasonable." Unlike Robert, I wouldn't limit the class of professionalism to those who deal only in life or death matters, (Medical Professionals, Legal Professionals, Engineers who build life dependent systems, or military personell. Using that criteria, the only professionals in the film industry would be stunt co-ordinators)

Having said that, there is a "grey world" of professionals, or "semi-pros" in the arts as well as in sports. In the DV world, the term "Prosumer" has been applied to equipment that falls somewhere between "professional" gear and "Hobbyists/consumer". Seems like many of the people who visit these boards are "prosumers". People who pursue their craft/art as a business - sometimes on the side, hoping to build it to the status of full time, full pay. That's a good way to start.

My definition of "Professional" then, is one who makes their living by performing their craft/art. Semi-professional would fit the bill for those who pursue it part-time. It's a definition that sometimes falls short, but it's a "reasonable" one for me.

Having said that, I just visited Mandy.com to search for "Fully paid" jobs in the US for editors. The results were pretty much what one would expect.

Nine full time jobs listed for Avid editors

Five full time jobs listed for FCP editors.

Three jobs listed for Editors with skills in Both platforms.

Two jobs listed for "others" Discreet, Smoke etc.

None listed for VV.

Just an observation on marketable skills at the present time. Perhaps, in five-ten years, VV will have reached a similar level of integration in the professional world.

All the best
Bill

At one time, there was a pretty clear distinction between professionals and laymen. Trade unions still follow a strict heirarchy of apprentice, journeymen, and master. In the US, doctors, engineers, lawyers, and accountants are required to demonstrate prerequisite knowledge and, periodically, ongoing education. Electricians, plumbers, elevator repair, telephony, and many other trades that don't readily to mind are also internally or legally regulated. In short, anywhere that public safety and welfare is concerned, there is a sharp distinction between the hobbyist and professional.

The entertainment industry sits here full of itself, and draws distinctions based not on qualifications, but on membership or length of service. Public safety is not at stake, but the size of one's paycheck is. For better or worse, the paycheck is the distinction In the end, lacking another, that is the definition of professional.

It could be worse. You might find yourself in a profession that's at odds with your hobby. Getting paid for your hobby efforts is an enviable position.

Jeff, sorry I misconstrued your comment on your 10 favorite movies being edited on Avid. Most of my favorites were cut with a splicer and tape before Avid was even formed. I could give you the list but you get the idea. Again, this debate really started with someone saying that Vegas was not stable---it has evolved into an interesting discussion of peripheral subjects.

By the way, have any of you guys ever edited on a Movieola or Steinbeck ????

It's sort of peripheral, but sort of at the heart of the mater. Americans want to be able to look at a list, compare numbers (features) and pick a winner. I like to think of it more as the Zen of editing. I think people should start out with the right set of tools and then evolve. As someone here pointed out, the hardest thing about Avid is unlearning the way you used to edit.

I went from linear editing in the '80's and early '90's to Avid editing and now FCP. Learning the Avid was fairly easy. It seemed natural and still does.

My comments about careers deal with peoples hopes and dreams. I know quite a few young people who dream of working in TV. Well, the majority of TV stations that are non-linear are Avid based. Why not have a jump on the competition and know the ins and outs of the tools you'll be using? Nothing I've said is meant to be a slam on VV3 or any other product. As Robert pointed out they are all capable of doing what the other does, just a little differently.

Except actual film. Avid is the only one that handles the frame numbers on film so that you can conform a list to go to the neg cutter with and edit your film. That's why the majority of the worlds great editors cut on an Avid. Avid is the only one that you can cut film on, with a few exceptions.

Jeff

"Can anyone offer any advice on a good NLE system? I will use it mostly for home video but use a Sony DCR VX2000 and want to maintain the best image quality I can for eventual DVD authoring.

I have read a lot about Matrox RTX100 and Canopus DVStorm and was considering one of these devices but it seems that many people are very happy with Vegas Video 3, which not only is much cheaper, but also probably easier to install (the other devices being hardware based). The other issue is I may have to upgrade my computer (P4, 1.8 GHz, 1G RAM) to use the Matrox or Canopus effectively. I want to be able to have a couple layers of video and audio with 3-4 texts if I want, as well as color correction and some cool 3D transitions. Since I am a hobbyist I don't need lightening fast rendering, but would at least like some real time previewing of effects and not painfully long rendering when it is needed.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Jeff, I wish you would re-read the original post.
This gentleman is looking for a low cost NLE.
Avid purchase here makes no sense.

You don't need a chainsaw to cut butter.

Vegas would fit his needs and more.

I think your dream would be his nightmare.

Should he go to film school to have fun with his VX2000.

How does cutting film relate in anyway to his post?

Buy Vegas, a $20 USdollar OHCI card and a AVID T-shirt.

Have fun. Life is short.

If you have the money get a Storm or Raptor.
Stormedit is really easy. Once installed You could be having fun in an hour.
If you buy Canopus I will help you install it if you run into trouble.
Let me know what system you have now.
My two cents.
Best wishes,
Rick

And also look at Pyro's FW and Premiere bundle. I hear (but have not confirmed) that it's sub-$300 . Nothing whatsoever against Vegas; just rounding out the recommendations.

While we're at it: Avid Xpress DV 3.5 StudentPack, non-commercial use for qualified degree seeking students, for sub-$500.

What will be interesting is what adobe and a few sites are rumouring.

They are going to combine premiere with after effects, and make basicly one giant NLE. If that becomes a reality, except for the sound manipulation, that would be an almost unbeatable package.

Zac

Well, thank you everyone for your input. Although the conversation did stray a little from my topic it was very interesting. How cool it must be to get paid for doing something so fun. I'm envyous. But, either for better or worse, I have chosen a different career path and will never be a professional editor. So I have taken it up as a hobby.

Just so you know where I am coming from, I did a few projects on Videowave and Ulead but always felt pretty severely limited in what I could do and how fast I could do it. Which is why I started investigating these other products. Since this is just my hobby stability, ease of use and ease of installation are important, so I can spend more time playing and less time troubleshooting. However, I also want to have the flexibility to use some neat tools (things I mentioned in my original text) and make a great looking video.

From all of the discussion I am leaning towards buying Vegas Video and then if I want more, getting something diferent when its time to upgrade my computer.

I realize there are many good video editing tools available, most people have their favorite and even the best ones have their weaknesses. But for what I want to do it sounds like Vegas Video would probably meet my needs at a reasonable price. Anyone strongly disagree?

Thanks again for helping me with this really difficult and confusing decision. And thanks Rick for the generous offer to help me if I get a Canopus product.

Thats interesting--AE and Premiere combined into one giant package---I think that they will have to concentrate on tweaking premiere a bit----Hey, I have an idea---what about Adobe buys Vegas (is will be sold within 90 days--) dumping Premiere--and creating the super application Vegas After Effects---(headache, bags under your eyes, anxiety about credit).

I think that would be a nightmare for VV3 users. If Adobe bought VV3 they would probably merge it into Premiere and VV3 would disappear as you know it. That would be a shame, because it is a very good NLE.

Jeff