Okay, have learned a lot over the past month reading posts here and Ty Ford's book. I want to replace my ME66 and thought to start with something for indoor use as that's mostly where I shoot. This is for boom use for a no to low budget indie kind of guy. I often shoot in imperfect places (friend's houses, etc) so reach and off axis rejection are perhaps even more crucial for me as the set is rarely perfect.
Anyway, I've been looking at hyper-cardioids for indoors in low ceilings as seems to be the general advice. Later on, I'll buy a short shotgun for outdoor shoots (had my eye out for a good used 416). But, here's where it gets complicated. Some people call certain mics hypers though they're listed as supers. Seen the Sen MKH-50 mentioned this way a few times. And if that's not for use inside then I don't know what you'd use it for.
So then I scratch the MKH50 off my list (too expensive anyway) and look at real hypers, like the (modified) Oktava 012, the At4053a, AKG "Blue Line" SE300B with ck93 cap, the Neumann KM185, the AKG C480B with CK63 cap, and the Schoeps MK41. The last two are really getting pricey though. There's a sale on a "B Stock" Neumann and the Oktava is $163 at the Sound Room (there's even a guy on ebay who supplies the parts and does the oft mentioned mod to the mic for $49). The real problem is I live too far away from any place that sells or rents these mics, so I have to go on a certain amount of advice here.
So what I was wondering is:
1- How important is it to have different purpose mics match each other (like a MKH 50, and a 416 do for example)? Wondering if my hyper choice should affect my outdoor mic choice.
2- Is it a difficult thing to match them in post (like with Logic Pro or STP's Match EQ filter)?
3- Any recommendations with reach and off axis rejection in mind for any of these mics: the modified Oktava 012, the At4053a, the AKG "Blue Line" SE300B with ck93 cap, or the Neumann KM185?
Sorry for the long post, but I'm really trying to educate myself here and am learning how interconnected everything is. Thanks ahead of time for any help!

Other's will chime in with their own thoughts I'm sure but the AT 4053a has garnered an excellent reputation among users with critical ears. And because it's part of a system with modular capsules you can get the omni and cardioid heads for a broad selection of options on the set at lower total cost than three comparable quality non-modular mics. Got my eyes on one myself in the not too distant future.

Of the mics you mentioned, I have a tested (but not modded) Oktava with hypercardioid and cardioid capsules, an AT4053a, and an AKG C480b with CK62 and CK63 capsules. None are perfect, but I'd probably agree with Steve that the AT4053a makes good sense if you aren't going to go all the way with an MKH-50 or a Schoeps CMC6/Mk41.
I wasn't blown away by the C480b. It has excellent sound quality and extremely low self-noise, but I find that mine is very susceptible to handling noise. Because of the mic's very lightweight construction, the handling noise is also at a higher frequency that isn't as easy to get rid of. If I was using a static mounted boom and had the money for it, the basic sound is great.
In the real world I find the AT4053a to be more forgiving in spite of having a much greater bass response even when rolled off. That's really my only complaint, it's not as directional at bass frequencies as I would like it to be.
The Oktava is also good, but fairly low sensitivity to sound while still being very sensitive to handling and wind noise.
At some point I want to test the AKG Blue Line hyper and see if it's a good compromise without having too much self-noise.
You may also want to consider the Sanken CS-1, it has an excellent reputation for indoor use.
I think the Neumann has too low a sensitivity for good boom use unless you've got good preamps, it's mainly designed for music recording in the studio.
As for the difference in "super" and "hyper", that's more in the marketing terminology of the manufacturers rather than a difference you'll easily pick out in practical terms.
I don't think you'd regret the money spent on an MKH-50 or a Schoeps, but if that's out of the question, an AT4053a is also a good investment at its price point. Search around, there's a large difference in price for this mic that isn't as widely sold as other AT's. As Steve also mentioned, despite AT's odd marketing that practically keeps its modular construction a secret, the other capsules are also available.

I'll agree with what's been said here by others. I own a Sanken CS-1 and like it a lot. Works well indoors, matches pretty well with a Schoeps 641 (when we're using two boom mics), small, light, moderately priced.

My AT4073a works pretty well indoors, too. But sounds like the 4053a might be more what you're looking for.

I haven't used the AKG blueline stuff, but hear it works pretty well for the money.

You might also want to at least try a Sennheiser ME64 capsule on your K6. They call it cardioid, but the few times I've used on it seemed more hyper to me (but that could be caused by many things...I don't own any K6 mics). Anyway, I think more of the 64 than I do the 66...

<http://www.sennheiserusa.com/newsite/productdetail.asp?transid=003282>

You know, depending on where you live, you might be able to rent/demo several of the mics you're considering (including a Schoeps), try them out, listen to what you've recorded, and then make your decision. What matters is what sounds best for your work to your ears. Rentals would probably be around $30/day (I'm basing that on my market, though).

But for me, the choice order would go Schoeps 641, Sennheiser MKH50, Sanken CS-1, and then I'm not sure because I have less experience with the following mics...probably Blueline, 4053/4073, ME64...but it's hard to say...

Hope this helps a little...

Jim

Thank you everyone for the feedback!! I was wondering about how to deal with some of these mics deficiencies though. For example, would a good shockmount help with the handling noise of an Oktava or a C480B? Also, wouldn't using a mixer and rolling off the lower frequencies there as well as on the mic itself go a long way towards dealing with the 4053a's lack of directionality in the lower ranges?
I was surprised to see the CS-1 come up so much. That seems to be breaking the rule of no shotguns inside. Interesting, but potentially shattering of my new world view.
As a general stupid question, is the Schoeps MK41 the same thing as the 641? I sometimes get lost in abbreviations.
Thank you all again for taking the time and for trying to educate this novice. I really appreciate it!

"is the Schoeps MK41 the same thing as the 641? I sometimes get lost in abbreviations"

That used to confuse me too. It's an abbreviation of CMC6 MK41. In other words, "yeah."

The CS1 is a freak that draws extreme opinions from people. If you look at the polar graph it looks more like a cardiod pattern, but at 90 degrees off axis the sound rejection is just insane. Its primary use seems to be for interiors. The dealer I bought my Schoeps from claims the CS1 has more reach, but I don't know anything about that. I kind of want one, as it looks like it would be very useful in some situations, but I haven't really been able to justify it.

I had a CS-1, Marco, and got rid of it because
it sounded too thin.

Schoeps: The CMC6 is the current model preamp. The MK41 is the hyper mic capsule. You need both to make a mic you can plug an XLR cable into (and may want a Cut 1, too).

A shock mount will help with the handling noise from an Octavia, but won't make it as quiet as many other mics. I mainly use my Octavia as a plant or stunt mic (stunt as in mic might get destroyed by a car, horse, or something).

My Sanken CS-1 doesn't sound thin at all. It was originally designed partly as an on-camera mic, so it intentionally rejects off-axis sound and has a small rear lobe. It matches Schoeps fairly well, but you do have to aim the CS-1 to get the best sound.

Best,

Jim "about to go out for New Years" Feeley

O
... So what I was wondering is:
1- How important is it to have different purpose mics match each other (like a MKH 50, and a 416 do for example)? Wondering if my hyper choice should affect my outdoor mic choice.
...

The new Schoeps CMIT shotgun is considered to be a very close match to the sound qualities of the CMC641 hyper. According to their website, having the two mics sound the same was one of the key design goals.

Okay, have learned a lot over the past month reading posts here and Ty Ford's book. .......The real problem is I live too far away from any place that sells or rents these mics, so I have to go on a certain amount of advice here.


Hi Ashley,

Appendix B in my book is a list of renters that will drop a mic in express mail for you. You don't need to be close. rent several try 'em and learn which one you like.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the help. Ty, I did check out the Appendix as you mentioned. For some reason, I didn't realize you could rent and have them send the equipment in the mail. Guess I will be able to check out some mics (except for the Oktava which no one seems to rent). Thanks again!

I have had very good luck with the ME64 so you might try it since you already have the power supply.


You might also want to at least try a Sennheiser ME64 capsule on your K6. They call it cardioid, but the few times I've used on it seemed more hyper to me (but that could be caused by many things...I don't own any K6 mics). Anyway, I think more of the 64 than I do the 66...

<http://www.sennheiserusa.com/newsite/productdetail.asp?transid=003282>


Jim

Interesting. Thanks for that, Bill and Jim. The only thing is, after listening to other mics I've found that I'm really not that fond of the ME66 (for example I liked the AT4073a a lot more). But, it wouldn't hurt to do a comparison with the ME64.
Thanks again!

If you compare, please let me know the results. I also own a K6 ME66 and am looking for a better indoor alternative. Ideally it should also fit my rycote softie mount. So I am very eager to hear about your test results.

Sorry, what I meant to say was "please let us know the results". Thanks to everyone posting in this forum, it's a great source.

If you compare, please let me know the results. I also own a K6 ME66 and am looking for a better indoor alternative. Ideally it should also fit my rycote softie mount. So I am very eager to hear about your test results.

Hi Tom,

What do you NOT like about what you already have?

Regards,

Ty Ford

The ME64 is miles better than ME66 indoors, but you have to get it really, really close. It's no substitute for the MK41 though. The AKG CK93 would be a huge improvement over the ME64 as well.

The problem with Sennheiser ME66 I had was mainly that the shotgun pattern (hypercardioid, lobar, or whatever is the exact terminology for this mic) is sensitive to noise coming from right behind the mic. When the ceiling is low, I get some reflections that adversely affect the sound (sounds a little bit like recorded in a big metal box, somewhat "tinny").

I have read in this forum that a cardioid patter may be better in small rooms with low ceilings as it is less prone to picking up reflections from the ceiling.

Apart from that, I really love the mike. I had a beyerdynamic before (which had better test results) but I didn't like it as much. Mics like the AT4053a etc. may sound better but they are out of my pricerange.

Marco, how close? Close like 20 inch or 8 inch? Thanks.

I like the ME66 too, although it gets kind of a bad rap in here. It is not an indoor mic at all though. Keep the ME64 under two feet from the speaker if you can. It's kind of an odd mic. At further distances, intelligibility is still good (that's why I love it on camera), but the room's reverberation becomes kind of intrusive. These are usually two mutually exclusive things.

Thanks for the advice. I would usually be less than 2 feet from the subject on indoors scenes.
So the ME64 is fine, but the AKG CK93 system is better (though at twice the price if you already own a K6) - to summarise the low end options (and stay within the topic of the thread).

The problem with Sennheiser ME66 I had was mainly that the shotgun pattern (hypercardioid, lobar, or whatever is the exact terminology for this mic) is sensitive to noise coming from right behind the mic. When the ceiling is low, I get some reflections that adversely affect the sound (sounds a little bit like recorded in a big metal box, somewhat "tinny").

Tom, At the risk of sounding exasperated because I keep saying this..:)
THAT'S ONE OF THE BAD THINGS THAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU USE A SHOTGUN INDOORS.

The Sennheiser shotgun, as pretty much every shotgun I know of, is a supercardioid.

[QUOTE=
I have read in this forum that a cardioid patter may be better in small rooms with low ceilings as it is less prone to picking up reflections from the ceiling.

Apart from that, I really love the mike. I had a beyerdynamic before (which had better test results) but I didn't like it as much. Mics like the AT4053a etc. may sound better but they are out of my pricerange.

Marco, how close? Close like 20 inch or 8 inch? Thanks.[/QUOTE]

No you want a hypercardioid for interiors, not a cardioid. If you can't afford a 4053, which is a fair but not a world class hypercardioid, there are several other hypercardioids, but they all sound worse than the 4053a.

There is a hyper from Rode, but I haven't heard it yet.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Sorry, my mistake. I meant to say hypercardioid, as opposed to the ME66 which is supercardioid (= lobar?). So this probably also means the ME64 is no good as its cardioid?

English is not my first language so I sometimes muddle up the technical terms up translating both ways ;-)

Thanks for all the help, I start to understand better why the sound I record sounds like it does.

I'm the one who bought that discarded Sanken CS-1, and overall I've been quite pleased with it in mostly interior situations.

Sorry, my mistake. I meant to say hypercardioid, as opposed to the ME66 which is supercardioid (= lobar?). So this probably also means the ME64 is no good as its cardioid?

English is not my first language so I sometimes muddle up the technical terms up translating both ways ;-)

Thanks for all the help, I start to understand better why the sound I record sounds like it does.

Tom,

Could have fooled me. You write as well as most people here.

I made a little mp4 video you might find useful. Go to my site, go to the Article Archive, go to the video folder, download the mic tutorial mp4 video. plug in good headphones or play back over good monitors.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Thomas,
Cardiods can do pretty well in interiors, better than a shotgun anyway. There is a hypercardiod available for the K6 system, the ME65, but I've never encountered anyone either on or offline with experience with that mic. The CK93 I mentioned is a hypercardiod. There is also a cardiod for the system (Blueline), the CK91. You mentioned that a CK93 (or AT4053) is twice as much money as simply buying another K6 cap. I would say that the sound would be more than twice as good, but if switching to AKG or AudioTechnica is not in the budget I think you'll still be pretty happy with the ME64. Just my two cents.