This is somewhat of a long-winded rant, but I'd like to see what other PC users have to say on the matter. After taking a good look at all the current options, all I can say is "Wo dropped the ball???"

...That's the question I have regarding PC support of the HVX200. I'm seriously confused and a little frustrated too. I've been a bit scarce around here for the past couple days since Kaku made the raw MXF archive available (thanks, Kaku!!!). Anyway, I've worked with it on my systems and have taken it to a local vendor who has all the current Avid, Canopus and other tools available. Kudos to these local guys working with me on a holiday weekend too. All I can say is that current PC support is a flat out joke.

Seriously, what (if any) PC based solution is available to fully support the HVX200 and/or Varicam right now????

Edius Broadcast (or Edius HD, NX w/HD, etc..) don't support all the available frame rates with 720p, only 24, 30 & 60 fps. 1080 is only supported as interlace and at 59.94, 60i or 50i. WTF? So much for their "complete" support. If Edius can support the Varicam (as they claim), then it's a mystery as to how it works... We couldn't get Edius to transition to any arbitrary rates other than the ones I listed and no options for pull down from 1080i for any of the footage acquired online (and converted to other formats on a Mac first so we could work with it on a PC). While I realise the Varicam is only 720p and DVCPROHD @ 1080 doesn't support 24p, it must be implemented the same way 24p was done in DV for the DVX. So I can understand a lack of support from these packages in this regard. However, Varicam has been out for a while and supports variable frame rates... What software supports this feature?

Avid Xpress Pro is even worse. Sure, it's a much more flexible (in terms of current features) software, but I think Edius is a more stable and more efficeint program. Edius' performance and ability to mix SD and HD of different formats on the timeline is great. Xpress would sometimes let us use the Mac-created QT files, but it would sometimes give us a white screen or crash out to the desktop on playback. (same results on 2 systems). Either way, performance was abysmal. Frame rate support was just as bad as with Edius. Moving up to a MC Adrenaline system, we could load the raw MXF data fine (Xpress didn't want to pull it in, kept thinking it was XDCAM). We could also go to 1080p or higher resolutions and create the necessary pull-down to extract 24p from the QT files and convert to QNxHD. Performance with QNxHD was much better, but still not as good as the native DVCPROHD performance in Edius.

So, as a PC user considering his options, here's what I come up with....

Going to Adrenaline isn't going to happen... Too expensive. The NLE setup would be nearly $40K plus monitor(s) and some other things.

Xpress Pro HD isn't going to happen unless Avid fixes the MXF support and adds support for all the proper frame rates. They need to seriously study the performance issues. Their DVCPROHD performance on Adrenaline is no better (same codec, just more options within the NLE software). Also no way to monitor HD from within XPress... We can get a crappy down-res'd version to output through Mojo in SD or we can dump SD out of the secondary monitor connector (NTSC/PAL or VGA or DVI) on the system, but this is pretty worthless.

Edius... May be a cheap interim solution if I think I can live with 720p and 1080i for a while and no special frame rates. But I'm not willing to do that... The frame rate options are one of my top reasons for ordering an HVX. 1080p isn't available in Edius yet. It's great for quick cuts and simple stuff... However, for anything with multiple blends or masking operations complex transitions, etc.. Edius just isn't mature enough yet. It also lacks the industry support that Avid and Vegas have from third-party tools. The NX w/HD or Edius HD package includes hardware with HD I/O options and monitoring of HD is a reality here. Edius Broadcast has an MSRP of $999 so that isn't bad, but it just doesn't do everything I want or need.

OK, now we consider the unthinkable... Making the "switch"... Crossing over to the <cough> Mac world. I don't like the MacOS... It is soooo restrictive compared to what can be done on a PC in a lot of underlying technical ways. I currently own a dual CPU G4 and it serves as a system for general Photoshop/Illustrator work and some desktop publishing tasks... I don't own FCP or any other Apple video software. I wouldn't load FCP and try to edit on this thing... Not really worth it to me. But as of right now, it seems my best bet is to buy a G5 Quad with Final Cut Studio and Shake, probably throw in a Kona card too. ...Just move all my editing and DVD authoring, etc... over to Mac.

There are other solutions such as converting the MXF to a usable format with DV Film Maker, but I'm not having much luck with that either and Vegas (what I'm using now) doesn't support all the resolutions right and there's just a lot more time and effort involved, which really negates any benefits that are supposed to be there with this tapeless workflow.

As of right now, I'll wait until my HVX200 is ready to ship (when EVS gives me the call) and then I'll jump on a new edit solution. If I were to buy tomorrow, I'd go with the Mac option... ;-(

So what do all you other PC guys think about this?

My title probably wasn't the best... It should be something more like "Who didn't drop the ball? Anyone?". It's not like it wasn't obvious that people were going to want this camera and many would want to use it with a PC editing solution. Is obtaining licensing and info for DVCPRO that big of a deal? Or did these various PC NLE companies just not show any interest (like Sony/Vegas)?

It's late, I'm going to bed... I'm frustrated, but it's nothing that $7K on a new Mac/FCPS/AJA setup won't cure. I'll throw a 30" display on there too, but I won't include that in the budget as an extra since I was already planning to order one of the new Dell ones next week anyway.

*Holding my Balls* (hoping not to drop them)

It's a CONSIPIRACY JEFF!
It's a New World Order to get us to use their Weapons of Mass Destruction ---> APPLE. *smile*

They want us to switch to MACS and be forced to use FINAL CUT PRO.

(not a bad idea when you think about it)

By January 2007 all this should be worked out. Until then I'll shoot some gorgeous movies with Canon XL-H1 cameras I suppose.
(unless Vegas does something colossal!)

- ShannonRawls.com

It's a CONSIPIRACY JEFF!
It's a New World Order to get us to use their Weapons of Mass Destruction ---> APPLE. *smile*

They want us to switch to MACS and be forced to use FINAL CUT PRO.

Joking or not, I think you're right. ;)

(not a bad idea when you think about it)

By January 2007 all this should be worked out. Until then I'll shoot some gorgeous movies with Canon XL-H1 cameras I suppose.
(unless Vegas does something colossal!)

Yeah, the Mac option is looking somewhat appealing.... Although, that XLH1 is looking a lot better too. The HVX200 is no longer the more cost effective solution (for us PC guys, anyway) now that all the editing issues are out in the open. I don't mind coughing up the cash for the Mac solution... I'm just frustrated that it looks like I may have to. Ironically, the cheaper interim solution may be to go with the XLH1 until the DVCPROHD on PC issues are sorted out. January '07 may not be that unrealistic given the current state of things....

I guess it's time to go demo the XLH1 and see if it will do what I want. Heh.

I guess it's time to go demo the XLH1 and see if it will do what I want. Heh.

It wont!

frame rate options are one of my top reasons for ordering an HVX.

and that's why!
So you may be better off getting the HVX-200. For me, I can do decent slow-motion at 30p or 60i.
____________________________________________

You asked "Seriously, what (if any) PC based solution is available to fully support the HVX200 and/or Varicam right now????....... Varicam has been out for a while and supports variable frame rates... What software supports this feature?

But thats the whole point my furry friend. There never really has been any....ever! People who shoot with that camera either...
1. uses MAC & Final Cut Pro (and even it has limitations regarding DVCPRO-HD) or
2. they cut using a downconverted DV proxy and finishes in HDCAM never going back to DVCPRO-HD.
3. or they cut in UNCOMPRESSED and finishes in HDCAM never going back to DVCPRO-HD.

There you have it.

Allot of people don't understand this. It's like the blind leading the blind right now in prosumer HD land, because lots of people will do whatever Panasonic tells them following them like a mesiah because of the highly successful DVX100a. No education or investigation on their own. And will club you over the head if you suggest HDV as an alternative.

Ofcourse, then we have smart people like you on the flipside. *smile*

See, when you have VARICAM MONEY....you usually have UNCOMPRESSED EDITING MONEY as well. So PC support of DVCPRO-HD was never really an issue or a demand. However, mark my words...that's soon to change! But then again, we'll soon be living on Mars.

- ShannonRawls.com

Shannon, you truely are one of a kind. I love your take on things, rants and all. Keep fighting the good fight.

Jipsi K.

Hi guys,

If you want to use the Variable frame rates from the HVX200 in the PC domain, shoot in the Native frame rates modes and then import it into your NLE. There are no frames to extract, only the native frames exist and thus all of the systems that support DVCPRO HD on the PC side support the variable frame rates.

I would say that you do want to pay close attention to the time base of your variable frame rate so that when you pop it into the timeline, you have the expected results.

Best regards,

Jan

Yes it's frustrating.

My guess is that in 6 months all these editors will support DVCPROHD and P2 in some form. Im in the UK, so dont get the HVX until March. Maybe by then we will have had a few announcements. If PPRO do not offer support for this in version 2, then I will probably buy a mac too.

What's really frustrating is that there no way for us PC users to view these files on a basic PC. Im told that Avid have a codec, but you have to have the editor installed to view them. Surely there is a basic DVCPROHD codec out there that could play within meida player. Who's responsible for this? Panasonic? Microsoft?

I can understand that Panasonic need to work with someone like Adobe or Sony to implement support for an NLE - but surely its in Panasonic's interest to get a standalone viewer out there. No-one else is going to write that for them.

I was a little surprised that Panasonic didn't release some very basic software with the HVX. I seem to recall that JVC at least offered some extremely simple capture and edit software when the HD1/10 came out since it was a new format and there wasn't good NLE support for it at the time.

Now I know Panasonic is probably rather protective of the DVCPRO codecs, but I think the time to keep that locked up may be past. When DVCPROHD was limited to a $65,000 camera this wasn't a big deal, but if they're going to go toe to toe with 5-9K HDV cameras they'd probably benefit from opening this thing up. And if the PC user base can't work with the HVX, they'll probably turn to HDV before they spring for a new Mac and Final Cut. This is a $6,000 camcorder and the market is just going to be WAY different than Varicam. It would be great to have a freely available codec that could be ingested by any NLE. You know, I'm not a total tech head when it comes to codecs and the underlying software technology, so maybe that's just not possible. But I do remember first getting started with video on classic pentiums and MJPEG compression boards and if you had the correct MJPEG codec you could pull your video into Premiere or whatever and begin editing. I must be missing something, sounds too simple now.

Anyway, I'm certain there will be solutions forthcoming. I'm pretty positive that Adobe will want to support this and its just about time for a new version. In the meantime I've tried using Avid 5.2.1 and I must say, I'm not impressed (flame suit on, nothing personal to the Avid guys).

Oh well, I suppose these are growing pains and part of early adopter woes. Still can't help thinking that this would be a non issue with a simple capture program and a codec pack though. Perhaps someone more technical than I can explain why that wouldn't work. Or has Panasonic mentioned anything about distributing the DVCPROHD codec?

Thanks Jeff !

You're "preaching to the choir" man!

I'm using AVID 5.2.1 now (PC) and I'm not impressed with it's DVCPRO support, or should I say NO support.

The only files I have got to play so far are the 720P raw files.

Not being able to preview HD is also one heck of a disapointment.

This is REALLY making me nervous!
I don't understand WHY Panasonic doesn't offer at least a codec that will work globally with programs such as Vegas and PP?

You would also think they would at least include simple software to view their files on the PC?

Steve

"OK, now we consider the unthinkable... Making the "switch"... Crossing over to the <cough> Mac world. I don't like the MacOS... It is soooo restrictive compared to what can be done on a PC in a lot of underlying technical ways. "

I used to make ignorant statements like that when I was diehard PC user but now that I have switched to Mac, I realized just how bad Windows is. I really got a taste of that again yesterday fixing some software issues with a PC. Wow are you folks in the dark! Try something before you condemn it. You might just be surprised. I know it changed my productivity 100 fold.

It also strikes me as odd that even if you buy a Blackmagic video editing card - you can only edit in DVCPROHD on a mac. They dont support it for the PC. I dont know what the deal is but I hope someone starts to make some radical changes.

Many moons ago I was a Premiere user. Then Avid. Later made the switch to Media 100. Now I'm on FCP.

My point? Use what works. FCP is not perfect. Feature-this, or feature-that, one program or another will be better. But as a complete system, as a complete ecosystem, the Mac/FCP combo is overall the most integrated and productive.

Look, this is just a natural consequence of the release timings. No NLE maker is going to integrate code into their system until the cameras features are codefied (that is, until the final production version is released). The same thing has happened with every new camera: The DXV100's 24p mode took months to support in most NLE's, and so did the every version of HDV. The only reason Apple is ahead of the game is that they jumped on Varicam and DVCProHD over firewire 2 years ago. It would be nice to think that as soon as a new format is released, NLEs would have a simple patch available by the time the camera ships, but recent history tells us that's just not the way it happens. It takes a lot of time and effort to integrate support for a "new" format into an NLE, and the manufacturers need the camera in hand to do extensive beta testing. Or, in this case, at least a bevy of MXF files from the finished camera to work with. Scratch that, because they'll all want to advertise live firewire capture and firewire transfer from P2, so they will need the camera.

Don't worry about it too much, though. With the huge buzz over this camera, rest assured that every major NLE maker is working hard to support it. Also, the release of new feature sets for NLEs tend to be grouped around NAB. Either they'll have it ready to ship by April, or they will announce support with a working beta version to demonstrate and announce it as a free download later in 2006. My gut instinct is that Adobe and Sony will have working solutions by NAB, with Avid, Edius and others following in 2006. No one can simply afford not to support this camera. BTW, the same goes for the JVC, to a lesser extent.

Nobody's dropping the ball, it's just rolling glacially slowly, as ever.

As far as I know from observing the development of how Apple implemented the DVCPRO HD, was long way to come. With FCP5, it was already implemented with software based codecs and since Apple does not have to sell any extra hardware, they always spent more time for developing the software support for DVCPRO HD, HDV. They had even some problems to implement mpeg based codecs like HDV in the beginning, but over all sucess of the company must have attracted many geniuses to work at Apple.

Apple concentrated on native power based software, and third party like AJA and Blackmagic did their work in using the software codec to implement with the extra hardware they make, not needing to really work so hard (not saying that they don't work hard) on creating something independantly. That is the beauty of Apple, but since it is freeform, freestyle, whatever you call it, it is hard to understand what the whole environment can do.

My company is enjoying the success fo furnishing the whole system based on Macintosh with FCP, and hardware like AJA Kona series with Huge raid system, Xsan system, providing certain level of performance and promissing the customer in what degree the system we provide can work, then customers can feel comfortable purchasing the system.

One of the reasons why I purchased HVX200 is that we knew HVX200 was giong to work with system we sell and use for sure. Apple's been stepping forward to implement such environment from long time ago, people laughed at them at NAB while back when Apple said they are doing everything with FCP and CPU, but we knew it was going to be true because we were already experiencing the paradime shift on CPU based audio recording environment. While Apple was not only making the CPU fast, software to do the functions, they were making the whole computer work faster, puttting something like altivec work for media creation. People who use Windows might not realize all of these series of development by Apple, but that is the reason why Apple useres believe Apple. My company sells WindowsXP based system, too, but simply comparing the weight on setting up, supporting the customers, flexibility of the system, we prefer selling macs to the customers.

You can point out some codec verity and other stuff, but you can see how easily I can come up with the clips for the new cams every time (gotta thank Frederic Haubrich for HDV tho), it is backed up on the Macintosh system I've been using. And I'm not even displaying power in the other side of my business at all, the audio and music side, is even more complete and nothing to pick on. I'm not trying to convince anyone or talking bad about Windows based systems, but these are the reason why i prefer Apple based system.

Well, we'll see about that. It's good to be optimistic.

Let's hope for the best! - -- But, what the heck do I do in the meanwhile?
I'm hoping that MainConcept comes up with something soon. Shoot miniDV I guess :( I want to try DVCPRO50 for SD stuff.

I was hoping that Panasonic would also include a utility to unwrap the MXF files for DVCPRO50 and 100 so I can use the files in Vegas using the MainConcept DVCPRO50 support and/or AVID's DVCPRO100 (although AVID's DV100 codec is real SLOW, lucky to get 3-4 fps)


Steve

There's good reason why Apple/FCP has a significant portion of the post production market.

Apple's been ahead of the curve on HD game since things starded heading towards the prosumer. Even before they were able to supply direct HDV support they had their Intermediary codec support right down to iMovie that comes free with the Mac.

At least with Apple, they'll announce support of new video hardware/codecs so you have the security of knowing it'll happen.

When you factor in the real cost of using a computer you have to include productivity time lost due to down time and waiting for software upgrades to match your hardware capabilities.

FCP, Motion, DVDStudioPro, SoundTrackPro, CinemaTools, Compressor, LiveType. All integegrated. I can go from DV to HDCAM and not have to upgrade a single piece of software. BTW Compressor and DVDStudioPro ALREADY support creating HDDVD/BluRay.

As far as I know from observing the development of how Apple implemented the DVCPRO HD, was long way to come. With FCP5, it was already implemented with software based codecs and since Apple does not have to sell any extra hardware, they always spent more time for developing the software support for DVCPRO HD, HDV. They had even some problems to implement mpeg based codecs like HDV in the beginning, but over all sucess of the company must have attracted many geniuses to work at Apple.

Apple concentrated on native power based software, and third party like AJA and Blackmagic did their work in using the software codec to implement with the extra hardware they make, not needing to really work so hard (not saying that they don't work hard) on creating something independantly. That is the beauty of Apple, but since it is freeform, freestyle, whatever you call it, it is hard to understand what the whole environment can do.

My company is enjoying the success fo furnishing the whole system based on Macintosh with FCP, and hardware like AJA Kona series with Huge raid system, Xsan system, providing certain level of performance and promissing the customer in what degree the system we provide can work, then customers can feel comfortable purchasing the system.

One of the reasons why I purchased HVX200 is that we knew HVX200 was giong to work with system we sell and use for sure. Apple's been stepping forward to implement such environment from long time ago, people laughed at them at NAB while back when Apple said they are doing everything with FCP and CPU, but we knew it was going to be true because we were already experiencing the paradime shift on CPU based audio recording environment. While Apple was not only making the CPU fast, software to do the functions, they were making the whole computer work faster, puttting something like altivec work for media creation. People who use Windows might not realize all of these series of development by Apple, but that is the reason why Apple useres believe Apple. My company sells WindowsXP based system, too, but simply comparing the weight on setting up, supporting the customers, flexibility of the system, we prefer selling macs to the customers.

You can point out some codec verity and other stuff, but you can see how easily I can come up with the clips for the new cams every time (gotta thank Frederic Haubrich for HDV tho), it is backed up on the Macintosh system I've been using. And I'm not even displaying power in the other side of my business at all, the audio and music side, is even more complete and nothing to pick on. I'm not trying to convince anyone or talking bad about Windows based systems, but these are the reason why i prefer Apple based system.


^^^ Amen brother... I just upgraded to a Quad and am running FCP 5.0.4 with an FX1 that I'll upgrade to the HVX200... reading these posts I'm glad I made the switch back in October of '03 to the Mac platform. Now I'll just have to make the switch to a DVCPRO HD video system. Thanks alot for providing those shots Kaku... seeing the day/night footage definitely persuaded me to list my FX1 on ebay.

I agree with Kaku!

The Mac environment ('ecosystem' is a great way to put it!) is just a nicer place to be right now.

I come from a PC background originally and have administered and worked on Avid, Media 100, Premiere, now FCP and lots of tape based systems before that.


I have to say that the editing job is still the same, but unquestionably the Mac/FCP Studio combination (including Soundtrack Pro, DVD Studio Pro, Motion, Live Type etc) lets you spend more time editing and *way* less time tweaking.

Moving from system to system works.... moving from app to app works (mostly, ;-) ) and now a really great lowish band width HD format is coming to fruition and on the Mac it just works (or seems to on the basis of Kaku's generously donated clips). I just imported them into my humble single processor G4 laptop and bam... editing HD with full screen playback on another monitor if I want atttch one.

Then author a HD DVD.... admittedly you need a G5 to play these at the moment... but consumer boxes are around the corner.

Today I run 14 FCP edit stations ranging from simple computer plus monitor and deck to fully equipped Dual everything uncompressed capable suites all on a Fibre based SAN. Nary a hicough in the past 6 months! (touch wood).
No crazy hardware costs, support contracts, updates are regular and reasonable and users generally enjoy the process.

To think that with FCP and the HVX200 we are on the verge of an affordable good quality HD workflow that will work with our existing processors, hard drives (including all those FW400 units!) is amazing. I'm more excitied by this than when I first saw DV!

Support for PC will come of course.... but there's rough water ahead (IMHO) for Windows.

Just take the plunge... if you like really getting under the hood learn a bit of Linux... seems to me my Admin guy can do just about anything I ever did on Win/DOS based OS's.

Anyway, Happy New Year all

Lee

Avid vs. Apple vs. Edius

Well, I never thought I would see the day … I am basically a “dyed-in-the-wool” windows guy. My current set-up includes several P4 XP boxes networked together running Avid Xpress Pro, Vegas, Digital Fusion, and Combustion. However, a couple days ago, (just in time for the write-off), I took the plunge.

I am now looking at a sleek silver G5 Quad with 5 gigs of ram, and the Apple Store said they would have my copy of Final Cut Pro Studio out to me early next week. As I said, I thought I’d never see the day.

With my HVX 200 on order, I had to decide whether to upgrade to Xpress Pro HD, (and either build or buy an “Avid approved” box), or experiment with Edius Broadcast, or to bite the Apple and “go over to the dark side.”

From a cost standpoint, upgrading the Avid to Xpress Pro HD should have been a “no-brainer.” However, my current XP boxes were not equipped to run Xpress Pro HD, so that would require either building a new box or purchasing an “Avid approved” computer. (Avid approved boxes aren't exactly cheap.) Actually, I really didn’t have a problem with any of that, what threw me for a loop was the fact that after doing all of that, it seems that Xpress Pro HD may have no way to externally monitor HD unless you feed a fire wire signal out to something like a Panasonic AJ-1200A DVCPRO HD deck (or alternatively go with an Avid Adrenaline with a HD expansion card ... really big $$). Remember Mojo is standard def only, and from what I have been able to tell, it doesn’t appear that the HVX 200 will allow HD pass-thru monitoring of the time line … and even if it does … who wants to tie up their camera as a link in the monitoring chain?

Edius looked intriguing and they may have a real winner if it is MXF native as billed. However, from what I have read (and seen at NAB) the interface could take some getting used to and there is little or no third party plug-in support. I think the jury is still out on Edius, and I need something NOW and something that is proven and a known entity.

That left me with Apple and FCP. When I added it all up, it just made sense at this time to “jump ship” and go with something that is increasingly becoming an “industry standard.” (And I don’t mean to start an Avid vs. FCP war … I edit on an Avid … I love it.) However, I get the feeling that right now there is a tighter degree of integration with Panasonic/DVCPRO HD and Apple. The same is true with third party hardware vendors, i.e., Kona & Decklink. (I’ll be ordering a Multi Bridge Extreme next week.) I am certainly no FCP expert, but I understand that it can handle pretty much anything you can throw at it. Like Avid, FCP has a fantastic community of users and there are numerous third party plug-ins written for the app. The Studio bundle seems to have just about everything that I will need, and hopefully I should be able to slide the files across the network and still do any compositing or finishing work in Fusion or Combustion.

I already have one 24’ Dell LCD monitor and as soon as I see another coupon, I’ll get another for HD preview.

It is a brave new world for me. 2006 should be fun. Happy New Year!

Panasonic dropped the ball. DVCPRO-HD or DV100 is based on the standard SMPTE-370M, so any company can get the standard and start coding, as MXF tool kits are freely available. But that is a lot of work to build a codec from scratch, optimization is very important and there are many opportunities for mistakes (as we saw in early DV codecs.) Panasonic has an optimized codec developer kit, which is great, very much shortening the time to market. However, they charge for this, and apparantly a LOT, so much so they won't even discuss how much with us (CineForm.) Apparantly we aren't worthy. This was completely shooting themselves in the foot. By not enabling as many NLEs/customers as they can, they will sell fewer cameras. The codec SDK should have been made widely available. Now it is true that (guessing) a $100K SDK vs $10K cost may not make a big difference for the larger companies, who would still take many months for a new camera support. Yet a small company like ours could have implemented the camera support for a wide range of PC applications in time for the camera launch. Panasonic, anytime you are ready, we are still here.

Panasonic dropped the ball.

Dammmmmmmnnnn, David Newmen went there with it! *smile*

Callin' out names and stuff.

David & Chris are Gangstas!

- ShannonRawls.com

Panasonic dropped the ball. <snip> Panasonic, anytime you are ready, we are still here.

OK David, stop beating around the bush and tell us how you really feel. :)

Its interesting that Panasonic charges so much for the development kit and doesn't make it readily available to interested vendors such as Cineform.

Might this have something to do with the fact that DVCPROHD has been tied to a $65,000 camera? It might be hard for upper management to accept the fact that this codec now ships on a 6K camcorder and that the market needs to be opened up to a new audience. I bet this would happen if Sony released their high end format (HDCam? Not sure) on a 6K camera too.

Of course, I could be wrong (and if I am it will take about a nano second for a correction to come in!)

Apple Final Cut Pro 4.5 supported DVCProHD when it was released in April 2004 and was a FREE update to those who had FCP 4.1. That was 20 months ago! With FCP5 Apple added native HDV support.

You can blame Panasonic or you can get a system from a company that tries to keep up. I used Avids from 1990 to 2002 (both Mac and later Windows) and switched to FCP. Avid, whether Mac or Windows based wants to make money through expensive upgrades. Apple's FCP is scalable.

The NLE marketplace is extremely competitive. Discreet (now Autodesk), certainly is not that small a company and they dropped Edit*. Media 100 has gone from that to Optibase and now Boris. Sony would probably prefer you use HDV on the prosumer side and XDCAM (HD) on the higher end. If the NLE maker can't keep up people move to one that can. When Apple doesn't jump on the support bandwagon there's usually a third party that will fill the void. Telestream Flip4Mac MXF importer for XDCAM for example.

All the above really needs to be considered when putting together an NLE system and workflow solution.

"OK, now we consider the unthinkable... Making the "switch"... Crossing over to the <cough> Mac world. I don't like the MacOS... It is soooo restrictive compared to what can be done on a PC in a lot of underlying technical ways. "

I used to make ignorant statements like that when I was diehard PC user but now that I have switched to Mac, I realized just how bad Windows is. I really got a taste of that again yesterday fixing some software issues with a PC. Wow are you folks in the dark! Try something before you condemn it. You might just be surprised. I know it changed my productivity 100 fold.
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate. First, of course Unix is a far more robust system than windows. That statement has no basis in reality. That said, If I were a PC user, I would be upset also. I think anybody on this forum that steps up and debates issues in a good way, deserves our support. I work on both platforms, but use a MAC when I can, and in the past, this type of thing happened a lot for me. I think instead of saying, "See how it feels", to PC users, we should be supporting our filmmaking, editing, brothers and sisters.

we should be supporting our filmmaking, editing, brothers and sisters.

What planet are you from? and what have you done with Claude the regular Human Being??????

*the sky is falling*

- ShannonRawls.com

What planet are you from? and what have you done with Claude the regular Human Being??????

*the sky is falling*

- ShannonRawls.com

I'm feeling very Zen today, but that'll probably change as soon as I go for coffee.

Hi guys,

If you want to use the Variable frame rates from the HVX200 in the PC domain, shoot in the Native frame rates modes and then import it into your NLE. There are no frames to extract, only the native frames exist and thus all of the systems that support DVCPRO HD on the PC side support the variable frame rates.

I would say that you do want to pay close attention to the time base of your variable frame rate so that when you pop it into the timeline, you have the expected results.

Best regards,

Jan

The trick is... How to get these native frame rate clips into the NLE? DV Film Maker doesn't like the MXF files flagged other than 24, 30 or 60p. Neither does Edius or Avid. Therefore we can only import 720pn if it's in 24, 30 or 60p. To use other frame rates and bring them into the NLE, we must shoot 720p60 with the repeat frames (so if we want 12fps, we must shoot 60p with a 5 frame repeat) so we have a file that our NLE wants to understand. Then we have to do the drop frame / pull-down in the NLE. Seems like a no-brainer, but wait.. Edius and Avid won't let us... They only support 24, 30 and 60. Arrrrrrgh! Edius just can't do it. Avid Xpress Pro can, but a lot of the features available with DV/SD are not available with HD. Xpress Pro won't even let us do a 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 to extract the 24p/24pa from 1080i.

OK, so it's not THAT bad... There are work-arounds. Import into Edius, Avid or DVFILM and export to uncompressed or HDCAM or QNxHD. I haven't tried Cineform, but it should work OK too, but uncompressed frames seem to make the most sense with my animation/compositing workflow anyway. Just go ahead and convert to uncompress and scale the frames from the DVCPROHD resolutions to their appropriate 1280x720 or 1920x1080. It's a drain and takes a while and it will be klunky to say the least. At least I have the systems and storage to pull it off... Doing that, I can go back to Vegas, which actually supports any frame rates I want.

I used to make ignorant statements like that when I was diehard PC user but now that I have switched to Mac, I realized just how bad Windows is. I really got a taste of that again yesterday fixing some software issues with a PC. Wow are you folks in the dark! Try something before you condemn it. You might just be surprised. I know it changed my productivity 100 fold.

Hehe. Actually I'm quite familiar with the MacOS, I guess I just don't care for some things about it. In reality, I don't care for a lot of things about Windows either... IMO, it sucks. In my perfect world, we would all be running a hybrid of BeOS and SGI IRIX with some Amiga overtones and it would never crash and I could have conversations with my PCs as if they were HAL 9000 and... Well, you get the idea.

My aversion to switching to Mac is that most of my entire workflow and software is already PC based. Much of it not available on the Mac or at least not in the same capacity when considering third-party support plugins and whatnot. If I jump to Mac for my editing/compositing/video work, etc... it would be a significant investment on top of what I already have installed... All for no reason other than PC software developers have pulled up lame on supporting a new product.

In reality, I wouldn't be making a switch... I would just be spending a boatload of money to buy another system to do a task that many of my other systems could do just as well (if not better) if the software would actually exist. If I do it, I'll go for the G5 Quad... At least it will be comparable in power to my quad-core Opterons and it can join my Lightwave render farm when not being used for video. I also use XSI for 3D work and it's starting to serve a larger role than Lightwave, but it's only Windows and Linux.... MacOS versions have been hinted about, but we haven't seen anything yet. So, it looks like I'll probably be starting to run a mixed platform shop here. Ugh. But like I said before, I already have a Mac here (dual G4) and it's seamlessly integrated with our network and works just great for Photoshop and DP tasks. It's the odd-man-out computer, but hey, maybe it needs a friend. :)

The Varicam has been available for awhile. FCP jumped on it almost immediately, and nothing else has to this day.

Maybe the low cost HVX will spur them to act, but we do know for sure that they are working hand in hand with Apple. Couple that with how nice FCP really is, and its hard to consider buying this camera now and using any other NLE.

Seems like alot of people are looking at the Quad. Heck even my diehard PC using next door neighbor wants one now. It's hard to knock a computer that is fast and got good software. Faced with the PC NLE problem... well now that gives people the necessary justification to switch camps... if they can afford it.

Apple Final Cut Pro 4.5 supported DVCProHD when it was released in April 2004 and was a FREE update to those who had FCP 4.1. That was 20 months ago! With FCP5 Apple added native HDV support.

You can blame Panasonic or you can get a system from a company that tries to keep up. I used Avids from 1990 to 2002 (both Mac and later Windows) and switched to FCP. Avid, whether Mac or Windows based wants to make money through expensive upgrades. Apple's FCP is scalable.

Yeah, when I started this thread I didn't want to point a finger at Panasonic. I don't know they licensing issues (if any) related to DVCPRO[HD], but they can't be all bad. Apple incorporated DVCPRO just as if it were another codec to support (which it is), no big deal. Edius supports it rather will, I will give them that, they just don't have all the other bells and whistles in their NLE to really take advantage of the HVX200 or do the kind of creative editing that a lot of us like to do. But Edius is great for quick edits and broadcast work. Avid... What a joke and look at the price. Whooowee! I like Avid's workflow and interface/features, but after playing with Xpress, I'm not exactly impressed. I've paid lots of money in the past to essentially beta-test incomplete software and I'm not about to do it again with Avid just so I can have a half-baked edit solution for the HVX.

IMO, Panasonic maybe could have pushed a little more to get their codec implemented by some NLE authors. But in the end, it's the software developers that make those decisions and with the amount of buzz over this camera for the past year or so, I'm in shock that Avid's support is so incomplete and Adobe has yet to stand up and be counted. Even with Vegas I'm surprised... Vegas had 24pa support for the DVX100 implemented before the camera officially started shipping, at least that's what I remember. I was near the top of the DVX100 list at B&H and received mine less than a week after official ship date and was editing 24pa the first day.

Anyway, I'm not platform loyal and I will go to whatever tools let me get the job done. I have to go buy a new wireless access point this afternoon and if they have a G5 quad in stock with the 7800 or FX4500 video card, I may just go ahead and buy it and quit all the whining. It'll probably work out for the best in the end. That way, I can get FCP Studio up and running and Shake as well and maybe get the apps somewhat figured in my head by the time my HVX shows up.... Hopefully in the next 2~3 weeks.

if they can afford it.

It's a tough nut to swallow if you've already invested in recent PC hardware and software. I've several systems here ranging from a dual AMD 1.2GHz on the low end to a quad-Opteron (8 cores!) @ 2.6GHz on the high end (render nodes). and several in between and one Mac too. I don't need another computer, don't really want another computer. I don't mind couging up some more money for NLE software - FCP Studio is very reasonably priced for what you get. I'm just choking on the $5K I'll probably spend on the G5 box itself... Sure, I could go with a lesser Mac, even a G5 iMac. But I want the thing to scream... I want it to run like my killer PC systems run... Apparently, I don't mind being broke either. hehe.

If I understand correctly, even Apple's implementation of support for the HVX200 leaves something to be desired, so what does that tell us? Maybe it actually takes time to fully incorporate support for a radical new camera with a lot of different recording modes and a special data wrapper, and that shouldn't be a big surprise to people. And if Panasonic has been charging big bucks to work with them on developing DVCProHD support, that just makes it all the more understandable why support is lagging.

I wonder which will happen first: Apple doing something about their need to "unwrap" HVX200 files before editing, or Canopus/Thompson improving their support for various frame rates? Don't be too sure that Apple will be the first or only company to figure all this out...

I was hoping that Panasonic would also include a utility to unwrap the MXF files for DVCPRO50 and 100 so I can use the files in Vegas using the MainConcept DVCPRO50 support and/or AVID's DVCPRO100 (although AVID's DV100 codec is real SLOW, lucky to get 3-4 fps)

That utility exists, but it's from DVFilm.com, called "Maker". It unwraps the MXF and rewraps it as a quicktime, or as an .AVI if you don't mind recompressing.

Doesn't currently support DV50 though.

MainConcept has a DVCPRO50 codec available, but it costs. You can get a free one from Matrox.

DV Film Maker doesn't like the MXF files flagged other than 24, 30 or 60p.
Incorrect. DVFilm Maker works with all the frame rates now. That's how I was able to import and edit the frame rate article and demonstrate all the frame rates in all the different timebases.

After much, and I mean MUCH, research on this very question (on this board and others) I went with a PowerMac G5 with 4x1 GB Ram and FCP 5 (.04). Apple is indeed ahead of the curve . . . and will hopefully stay there. PC will always be playing catch up if history is any indicator.

Barry,
If I use MainConcept's DVCPRO50, what do I need to do to get the raw P2 files to work within Vegas? What else will I need?


thxs,
Steve

Jeff -

Really when you consider the cost of camera, P2 cards, etc. the cost of a laptop is a pretty negligble part. I use both PCs and Macs and, I take exception with a couple of your points. Beneath the hood, OS X is clearly a more modern, flexible operating system than Windows of any flavor. Also, using both, I reboot the PC once a day and the Mac once every month or so. Am I paying a hardware premium for the Mac? Sure. So what. Is there faster PC hardware? Maybe. So what. I was also a Premiere fan and switched when Adobe didn't keep pace with FCP. I use Photoshop extensively and would use it on whatever platform I needed to use. If Apple gets there act together with Aperture, who knows, I may switch there too.

Platform flaming is last century. Think solution and use whatever works best for the problem at hand.

I'm #2 on my dealer's list for the HVX and I'm hoping to get it next week. I'll also be an early adopter of an Ap-tel laptop when Apple releases a dual core Yonah-based Powerbook. It's a grand time to be doing video.

I'm just choking on the $5K I'll probably spend on the G5 box itself...

Jeff: If it helps, Amazon has a $200.00 rebate coupon on G5 Quads. It brings the price down to $3,099.00 (with the GeForce 6600 and 512 mb of ram). See:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009U7YHI/002-2657589-8757638?n=541966

Really when you consider the cost of camera, P2 cards, etc. the cost of a laptop is a pretty negligble part.

Yep... The new system cost is negligible for sure. I'll probably spring for the G5 Quad with a KONA LHe or KONA2 card. I almost bought the G5 box today, I fought the impulse. :) Actually, I would have bought it, but they only had the systems equipped with the GeForce 6600 and I'd prefer the 7800GT model... I don't know the full extent of what I'll end up using the Mac for beyond video editing/compositing and DVD authoring, but I do want to keep it on par with my Windows workstations in terms of most of the hardware specs. I'd consider the Quadro FX4500, but IMO this is too overpriced... Quadro cards are overpriced in the PC world and we're paying another 20% premium for the EXACT SAME CARD in the Mac world when its supplied with the system.

I use both PCs and Macs and, I take exception with a couple of your points. Beneath the hood, OS X is clearly a more modern, flexible operating system than Windows of any flavor.

I wasn't aware I was flaming the Mac platform... I've seen a few other such comments here. I suppose I did have a tone of sarcasm in my original post that could have been misunderstood, but hey. I already own a Mac - a dual 867MHz G4 running OSX. I come from a very diverse computing background and have extensive experience with most every flavor of unix that has come along as well as the various PC OS's - DOS, OS/2, Be, Windows, etc.. The current MacOS has plenty of its own shortcomings and is, at its heart, a BSD implementation with a candy-colored condom stretched over it. Sorry for the crude analogy, but hey that's what it is. Unix/BSD and MacOS has plenty of characteristics that are outdated or stone-dead in many respects. But I can say the same for Windows... You reboot your PC once a day? Throw that P.O.S. away... My PCs easily go weeks on end without rebooting. A lot of people don't believe me, but I build them all myself and take care to make sure everything is compatible and I'm picky about the software I install.

Seriously though, I'm not trying to have a platform war, although it seems a few others have tried to steer this thread in that direction. I was simply venting my frustrations that PC software vendors have pulled up lame on this one and thus are forcing me to either shift more of my workflow over to the Mac or wait to adopt the HVX200 until they get their asses in gear and deliver a competent NLE solution.

I've spent a lot a time playing with NLE systems over the past several days using all of Kaku's footage (once gain, Kaku - you da man!). FCP is by no means perfect and I can list a few gripes about it (like Apple's insistance on diverting most everything through QuickTime and simply tossing away the benefits of MXF containers). But as of this moment, FCP is the best (and IMO, the only) real-world solution for working with the HVX200. That and if I switch, I also get more icing on my cake... I get DVD Studio Pro, which is by far better than anything on the PC unless I want to cough up $5K for Scenarist. And I can move my compositing over to Shake. I use Fusion right now, but the upgrade to the new version of Fusion will cost me about as much as buying Shake, which will do nearly everything Fusion will -- and Shake will do more than what my current version of Fusion does, so either way, I should upgrade.

Anyway, as I've said in this thread several times... I'm not loyal to either platform. My current workflow just happens to be PC based for the most part. And from where I stand, if Apple has the products I need when my HVX200 arrives, then they get my money and I will use those products until something better comes along.

Well put Jeff!

I take we won't find AOL on your computers! :)


I'm on the fence right now and don't want to add the additional cost if not needed. I believe I'm not the only one.

Thanks man,
Steve

Well put Jeff!

I take we won't find AOL on your computers! :)


I'm on the fence right now and don't want to add the additional cost if not needed. I believe I'm not the only one.

Thanks man,
Steve

No AOL here... That trash has no place on a decent computer.

I don't think any of us want the additional cost of a new system and software to deal with. I'm going to wait until my HVX is close to being delivered before I take the plunge. I'll hopefully wait until NAB and see what's coming down the pipe. Although, most NAB announcements are for future products and I can't wait another 6+ months for something to materialize. And comparing my current options... I think the only way I'd stay with a PC NLE solution at this point is if Sony suddenly announced full DVCPROHD and MXF support for Vegas to be released sometime by the end of February.

Why buy the camera? Weird position to be in... buying a Camera that's not supported on any of the computers that you would like to edit on.

I hear you Andrae, but....

I just starting to get into HD and can always use the HVX200's SD until better DVCPRO-HD support arrives for the PC.

Not to mention, I am not interested in HDV.

Steve

Why buy the camera? Weird position to be in... buying a Camera that's not supported on any of the computers that you would like to edit on.

The only other camera within my price range that fits my needs is the XLH1. But the HVX200 also offers variable frame rates and a tapeless workflow as well as what should be a superior means of video capture (DVCPROHD vs. HDV). As has been hashed over in other threads, to gear up with an HVX200 plus new NLE software and a few P2 cards should be about the same as an XLH1 setup. I guess the extra $$$ for the Mac to run the new NLE software on and gain the framerate and DVCPROHD advantages would be worth it to me...

The trick is... How to get these native frame rate clips into the NLE? DV Film Maker doesn't like the MXF files flagged other than 24, 30 or 60p. Neither does Edius or Avid. Therefore we can only import 720pn if it's in 24, 30 or 60p.

Just to be clear Jeff, what I said was to shoot in the PN modes and then just import that file. And what you are saying is that it does not work?

Please asnswer asap, I have a call into my guy at Avid.

Thanks,

Jan

The current MacOS has plenty of its own shortcomings and is, at its heart, a BSD implementation with a candy-colored condom stretched over it. Sorry for the crude analogy, but hey that's what it is.

So strange you would say this. I'm in India and when I saw a CRT today my reaction was what a "clean interface!" Then I noted the little colored Apple in the upper-left corner and realized I was seeing information not obscured by a "condom." It felt good!

I bought a hot PC last year because of all the options for HDV support. Now it looks like I'll need to upgrade my Mac because of FCP and its DVCPRO codecs. I'm not sure these are only temp issues -- all to be solved by NAB 2006.

I'm afraid we are going to see an increase in the use of "alliences" to levergage mutual sales. I to have to buy a Sony deck to play 1080i "HDV" and a BR to view Sony movies, while having to buy a JVC deck for 720p "HDV," and a Toshiba HD DVD to view a TW movie. (OT2: TWC just turned-off the ability to record HD on JVC D-VHS decks via FW.) If I buy an hp computer will it be able to play an HDCAM or BR disc? If I buy a hot Apple Intel iBook, where do I plug in a P2 card? Lastly, the new iPod drops Firewire in favor of Intel's USB. I don't know how a small post house -- or consumers -- can deal with this level of deliberate fragmentation. Will we all need 2 kinds of HD DVD burners?

Lastly, lest we forget, Panasonic has publically (NAB 2004) announced that they will release MPEG-2 based, low-cost HD camcorders -- which makes far, far more sense for P2. All they need is a low-power 720p60/1080i MPRG-2 encoder. (It wasn't ready, so they switched, at NAB 2005, plans and went with DVCPRO HD.) So by the time DVCPRO HD is fully supported -- end of 2006? -- we may only be months away from a whole new line P2 HD products that will be significantly more media efficient. And, a whole new cycle of NLE non-support.

Happy New Year!

The current MacOS has plenty of its own shortcomings and is, at its heart, a BSD implementation with a candy-colored condom stretched over it. Sorry for the crude analogy, but hey that's what it is.

Interesting comment.

Note: http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/01/02/01FEtoyawards_1.html

2006 Technology Awards

"Best Client Operating System
Mac OS X v10.4 Tiger
A rich and friendly desktop OS built with professional users in mind"

Just to be clear Jeff, what I said was to shoot in the PN modes and then just import that file. And what you are saying is that it does not work?

Please asnswer asap, I have a call into my guy at Avid.

Thanks,

Jan

Jan,

I'm only basing all this off the limited amount of footage available right now. I don't own Avid, but have been investigating Xpress Pro HD as a possible platform to migrate to as I currently use Vegas. I have spent some time over the past week with a local dealer, trying various NLE systems with the limited amount of HVX200 clips that are available online. What I have found with Avid (and this seems to be confirmed by other Avid users here and on dvxuser.com) is the following:

1. Can not get a 720pn clip shot at 12fps to import. I don't have the exact error message in front of me, but it was essentially an unsupported framerate or unsupported data rate type message. This clip will also not load into DV Film Maker, which according to Barry Green, does support all the various frame rates. There may be a problem with this MXF file.

2. DVCPROHD @ 1080 does not import at all intoXpress Pro if it's wrapped as an Apple QT (this is may be a QT compatibility issue, 720p QT works fine). If being imported from the native MXF, Avid wants to insist that it's Sony's MXF for XDCAM and not DVCPROHD. It took some fiddling around and one of the guys at the local shop I'm working with finally got the 1080i clip to load - I think he had to manually remove codec support from the system and essentially eliminate anything related to Sony MXF and/or XDCAM. Another system had the same issue and I've seen at least one other user on dvxuser.com report the same issue.

Once the clips are loaded into Avid (720 or 1080), the performance is absolutely horrid! On a dual-core PentiumD (3.2GHz, I believe) with 2GB RAM and 4x320GB SATA-II drives in a RAID-0 config, we were only able to run 4 ~ 5 frames/sec with a single stream. Converting to Avid's QNxHD allowed us to run multiple streams simultaneously. Avid obviously needs to do some serious work with their DV100 codec. Results were the same on a secondary edit system and others have reported the same performance issues.