I have recently been contemplating buying the Micro35 from Redrock inc for my XL2. I am curious if anyone has used it and how they overcame the inverted picture problem with the viewfinder.

Also, did the rails interfere with handheld work?

Matt

matthew,

there are a host of lcd monitors that will do an xy flip. this seems like the most viable solution to me, as the magnet trick seems dangerous and an israeli arm is half the price of a new monitor...

check out the datavideo tlm-70, ikan7000, ikan9000, nebtek neb64h, nebtek 64h pro, tv one LM-681M, tv one LM-401, and lilliput lcds. they all flip on the X and Y.

hope that helps.

Is there anyway the SDK could be used to glip the monitor image? That would be nifty!

But yeah, noone actually uses the SDK. Sad really.

Anyhoo, The isralie arm is interesting. My only beef is that I like the ENG style of viewfinder as it is less fatigue on the eye.

that really would be great.

redrock has reported some people have had success opening the evf and carefully flipping the monitor inside, but i'm not going there.

Yeah, count me out. Ugh... then if I want to shoot normal I gotta flip it back around...

The easiest solution I've read is just to flip your EVF and put it on the right side of the camera body, effectively inverting the image vertically and horizontally. It may take some time to get used to operating from that side, but it is a quick fix.

I do like the simplicity of your idea Devin, however, I have been doing hand-held work for several years now (betacam SP and such), and am phenominally right handed (left is prettymuch useless). I can't honestly see operating the XL2 on my left shoulder :P.

I suppose no one manufactures a lefthanded viewfinder for the cam which could then be flipped over...

I have an XL2 and a M2 (micro 35)...

I use both an LCD monitor and the EVF on the right side. If you plan on spending a lot of money on a monitor then you cna get one with high enough resolution for adequate focus and color reproduction...otherwise you will need the EVF for focus for sure.

I spent like $300 on the Xenarc 700YV. I like it a lot. I still go off the EVF for focus though.

How do you like the Micro 35 Andrew? Worth the cash? What lenses are you using?

I have recently been contemplating buying the Micro35 from Redrock inc for my XL2. I am curious if anyone has used it and how they overcame the inverted picture problem with the viewfinder.

Also, did the rails interfere with handheld work?

Matt
Hey Matthew,
I have an XL2 also and I've been thinking about the M2 myself. Have you seen the sample movies on redrock website. They look amazing. What I'm wondering is if they used the PL mounts for such as arri lenses, other High end lenses to get that look. Or did they use SLR mounts with still camera lenses? Can the SLR Mounts with still camera lens give you that look we see in there sample movies?
What I also wonder is that with the M2 adapter, would you use the canon 3x wide angle lens or just use the XL2 20x lens and put a still camera wide angle lens on top of M2 adapter?

Zia

I was wondering ther same thing. The 3x would certianly make the rig smaller and lighter. Any word on whether you need the 20x in place or if the 3x will do?

I think the look the achieved could easily be achieved with Nikon or Canon SLR lenses. Cinema lenses would probably give a warmer look, but the fact is both record to a 35mm frame (although i believe that Technically speaking, a still 35mm frame is larger than a motion picture frame, due to the fact that an SLR runs the film sideways while a motion picture cam runs it top to bottom).

However, I believe certain Panavision cams (correct me if I am wrong) do run the film sideways resulting in a larger frame (back in the day when optical effects created great generational losses in quality).

Therefore, I would think an SLR lens would provide a similar look to some Panavision lenses, and may infact provide a shallower DOF.

Once again, please anyone feel free to correct me here.

Hey guys I have the M2 and XL2 (with the 20x lens). I use Nikon lenses with the adapter and have been FLOORED by the results. There were a few issues early with some hotspots and ghosting caused by the CineScreen, but all new units are being shipped with a kick ass CineScreen that completely eliminates that.

The images are crisp and the DOF is PHENOMINAL.

I bought an external LCD (Xenarc 700YV) for around $300 basically for composition (not reliable for focus and color). It works just fine. For critical focus I use the EVF.

I HOPE to have some samples up this weekend. We'll see. Our post guy just moved back to town and is getting settled in with his equipment. This weekend's goal is to shoot some test footage, get it flipped and color corrected, and post it online.

Please look into the adapter. The guys at RedRock are great. And they have other affordable projects coming soon (followfocus, mattebox, etc)

from everything i've read, the adapter will work perfectly with the standard 20x auto lens, since all you're using the lens for is to focus on the ground glass in the m2 adapter. the lens in FRONT of the m2 is the lens that will determine framing and angle of view. also, just to add, nikon lenses on the nikon mount seem to be very popular for folks using the m2 because of their availability and price on the second-hand market.

I know the 20X will work, but will the 3X? If I could save that length and weight I would be more inclined to buy the Micro35

the 3x probably wouldn't work because the wide angle of view would pick up a lot of the adapter in the picture. even if it did, how much room and weight are you expecting to save? the 3x is still a relatively large, hefty piece of glass, and, if you don't own it already, it's expensive.

I already do own the 3X, and in experience, it weighs less and is quite abit shorter than the Mammoth 20X :P

Doesn't the lens have to be zoomed in 100% anyway?

just checked on the redrock forum, in the public area, so you should be able to access this and other helpful info. the 3x lens is not recommended.

Hello,

I just received my Micro 35 adapter. Been working on adjusting and customizing it, no footage acquired yet.

You can't use the 3X lens, as the lens can't zoom in far enough. I have an EF/XL adapter, and using an EF zoom lens, I've measured the required focal length to be about 20mm. This is why the 3X won't work -- not enough reach. Even at 20mm, there still may be some light falloff at the corners of the recorded frame, I can't tell if this is the case through the viewfinder, but will have an answer after I capture some footage. If you want a more compact setup (as I do), you can use a prime lens with the EF/XL adapter, instead of the 20X.

I believe most of the examples on the Redrock site are shot with 35mm still-photo lenses. Someone on their boards commented that you can see the lens "breathe" when the focus is racked, which is a characteristic of most still photo lenses. (Breathing is when the zoom changes slightly when changing focus). I don't think most viewers would notice this, and I'm certainly not spending $20K to $40K on a cinema prime lens to avoid this issue.

Pat

nice one pat. i would think the ef adapter's magnification factor would make the attached lens too long, no? i mean, even if you could focus on the gg properly, wouldn't you lose the wide angle of view from say a 17mm lens up front?

in any case, i saw some stills from the updated m3 glass on the redrock forum today. there's a scene that was only lit with a lighter and computer monitor turned on, and the image was quite beautiful. please keep us updated. thanks...

has anyone confirmed the EF adaptor working with the Micro35 and a 20mm lens? I am jsut more concerned about how much scpae the 20X lens takes up.

Matthew-

I'm afraid I don't know what you're asking...

As far as the XL2 and M2 (the official name of the adapter) are concerned, I have no problem with the size of the rig. The rod support that RedRock sells (18inch 15mm rods) is more than adequate to support the xl2, 20x lens, and adapter.

If you are considering just using the EF adapter, you should know that you really can't achieve film-like DOF with just the EF, canon lenses, and XL2 combination.

If you are thinking of using the EF in conjunction with the M2 (not sure how that is possible), remember that the EF will skew the focal length of whatever lenses you are using.

To all concerned-

The image from the M2 with the new CineScreen is really quite incredible. I hope to have some footage up somewhere (or at least some stills) by the end of the weekend so you can see for yourself.

Having seen clips using other 35mm adapters, I can say without a doubt that the M2 is as good or better than anything else out there right now, especially for the cost.

Andrew, I think you misunderstood me,

I am aware of how the Redrock Micro35 works to achieve DOF.

I am basically a handheld shooter, so having the extra weight of the 20X in the front is quite a disadvantage.

Concerning the EF adapter, I was reffering to Patrick's post about using the EF adapter and a 20mm lens attached to the XL2 body, then using the Micro35. Because a 20mm lens and Ef adapter would be far shorter and lighter than the 20x lens. I am curious if this would work.
I understand about the 7.6 magnification and such... But if you have a wide lens on the ef adapter then zoom it in the GG image plane, would that work as a relay lens? or is the 20X really the only option?

Matthew has it right. The 20mm + EF/XL adapter is a substitute for the 20X as a relay lens. The Micro35 is mounted in front of the 20mm+EF/XL.

I used my 16-35L EF zoom lens to come up with the 20mm figure, so the measurement was made with an EF photographic lens. There is NO magnification factor in this focal length specification -- a 20mm lens is a 20mm lens. The XL2 does crop the image due to its small sensor, but all this means is that you need much smaller focal-length lenses to achieve the same field of view as a full-frame camera.

Just to note: the 20X zoom lens has a focal length of 5.4mm to 108mm. The 3X wide angle lens has a focal length of 3.4mm to 10.2mm.

Just to summarize, the potential benefits of a 20mm f/1.8 EF prime lens as a relay lens are:
1) More compact
2) Sharper image (prime vs. zoom)
3) More sensitive (f/1.8 vs. f/2.8)

Of these possible benefits, #2 may not be true for the Sigma prime I'm looking at, as I've read that this lens is a little soft wide open. OTOH, our images are only 720X480 pixels, while the softness was observed on 8-12 megapixel still cameras. #3 also may not be true, as the achromat (close-up lens) shipped with the Micro35 has a small diameter, on the order of 50mm, which may restrict the light entering the relay lens (72mm filter diameter for the 20X, 82mm for the Sigma).

I'm going to be investigating this, however I can't do it for the next 3-4 weeks. I'd be glad to report my results when I get them.

Pat

ps: Matthew, you may find handheld to be difficult with the Micro 35 rails, as I seem to remember that they extend under the shoulder mount. (I'll check it when I get home). You may need to add on a shoulder support such as: http://www.varizoom.com/products/supports/vzdvrigxl.html
to shoot handheld.

Thanks pat,

I expected as much from the supports, but I am used to handholding Arriflex BL's without a support, so that's fine. I have shoulders of steel (or at least Magnesium).

Now, all that is left is to solve the upsidedown image IN the viewfinder. How much does an second viewfinder cost? Does cannon offer the stock viewfinder for sale?

Matt

Hi Matthew,

Here's a photo of my current setup. I was wrong about the rails, they do not go under the shoulder pad unless you set them up "short" (slide them in that direction). I've tried handholding the unit, and it's not bad. Weight is definitely very front heavy, depending on the "front" (objective?) lens that is mounted. The only problem is that the whole setup doesn't sit on the ground well if you put it down. It tends to flop over on its side.

Note that the 20mm f/1.8 prime I'm looking at is bigger than the 50mm prime shown here (spec. is about 3.5" X 3.5", L X D).

http://static.flickr.com/37/87599587_d298149141_o.jpg

Pat

Heythat looks great Patrick. If I can ask, how much did the whole setup cost? And how is it working for handheld wiht the image being flipped?

Matthew,

Approximate costs are:
1. Redrock Micro35 + Shim kit: $885
2. EF/XL Adapter: $420
3. 20mm f/1.8 Sigma (relay lens): $380
4. 35mm SLR lenses: ???

I don't have prices for #4 because I've realized that I'm going to use Nikon primes instead of my Canon L zooms. Primarily because I realize that I want manual aperature control, and the Nikons seem to allow this. I'll be looking for used glass first. It seems a little pricey at first, but when compared to a mini35 I felt it was very reasonable. I hope to get Redrock's follow focus when it is available (should be this month or next), and perhaps a Redrock mattebox/shade if they produce that soon.

I haven't operated it handheld. I plan on shooting nearly everything on a tripod or a jib. I do have a 7" Panasonic monitor + Nebtek battery adapter + varizoom hotshoe mount. I still need a way to flip the monitor over -- I may just fabricate something for that. The Panasonic isn't quite good enough for accurate focus. I may look into the Redrock software that allows you to use your laptop as a reference monitor.

Pat

Sounds good to me. Does anyone know the price of a colour viewfinder for the XL2 from Canon? Would consider buying a second viewifnder and flipping the LCd screen backwards within the casing.

Tom Camarda - discusses the Redrock Micro MR being used with Nikkor lenses during the making of "Busgirl" in the section - 'Get a Film look with 35mm lenses'. Check the link url here:

http://www.studiodaily.com/filmandvideo/tools/tech/5451.html

Here are some sample stills from films using the Redrock adapter:

http://www.redrockmicro.com/samples.html

Very interesting results...!

I have been hearing something about a viewfinder-flipper for the XL2. Is it a prism that fits over the LCD?> This image flip is the ONLY thing holding me back from buying a Micro35. (I already own an external monitor, but it has an automatic image flip, so if you turn it upside down, the image inverts... GAH!)

Matt

This image flip is the ONLY thing holding me back from buying a Micro35.
Matt

One quick solution that does work is to mount the XL2 viewfinder on the right hand side. You can just about go shoulder mount with it, but really, IMHO, using one of these adapters should be on tripod anyway. It takes a little while to get used to the vf on the other side, but much quicker than trying to learn how to frame with flipped image!!

I tried putting the viewfinder on the otherside, and have found iot really doesnt fit well at all. It only sits VERY close to the camera, and it is basically impossible to look thru it. You also cant open it up when it's flipped

I tried putting the viewfinder on the otherside, and have found iot really doesnt fit well at all. It only sits VERY close to the camera, and it is basically impossible to look thru it. You also cant open it up when it's flipped

I agree it's not ideal but I can certainly open up the VF when flipped; the viewfinder opens downwards. Yes you can't use it very well at all horizontally, but point the viewfinder up and look down it, very possible on a tripod. You can't use the 35mm lenses effectively handheld (because the focus is so tight). With the FU-1000 viewfinder, you have more scope for shoulder mounting as the mount is longer, but I agree that with the standard colour LCD, you can't view through it when the VF is horizontal.

It's a tradeoff, I know, but I use the viewfinder mounted this way when using my 35mm adapters no problem, just takes a bit of getting used to (much easier with the FU-1000 though, and better resolution for focussing).

Once again, does anyone know if you can buy a colour EVF seperatly from Canon?

Guys,
I have a whole bunce of questions and I would appreciate any productive response.


What sort of lenses are some of ya'all using with your M2 to make the XL2 get that beautiful film look. I currently have a Nikon 50mm f1.8 and I am expecting the 50mm f1.4 soon. In regards to higher ???mm, which one is best for the M2?

Does anyone have any idea how to get a wide angle shot with the M2 adapter. because I have a .55x Century Optics wide angle lense but I am not able to use it to get any wide angle shots?

Also, I thought we needed different lenses for different reasons, e.g Nikon 105mm lenses I think are used for short distance shots or what sort of cases do we use the Nikon 85mm, 105mm, 135mm, 35mm lenses?

Under water shots, what under water covers or protectors can someone use with the M2 adapter.
Do someone still have to use the same Nikon lenses or are their any special lenses for under water shooting?

MatteBox, I just purchased a Formatte Matte Box and hopefully will be usable for the M2. Well, I have not received it yet though, but how do you attach it infront of the Nikon lens when it is originally a 72mm ring?

Hi guys -

Just a couple quick comments. All posted sample footage on our site to date is shot with still 35mm lenses, primarily nikon or canon (though there is a minolta one in there :) )

Regarding shoulder mount and rods, we do sell a shorter 9" rod set (as well as a longer 24" rod set) which may help (if I understand your shoulder setup correctly).

Also on wide angle lenses, pretty much any 35mm wide angle will do. I have had great success with 20mm, 28mm, and 35mm focal lengths. One of the last scenes in this trailer (where she gets up from the table) was shot with a 28mm canon fl (a vivatar actually, $30 at Sammy's):

http://www.redrockmicro.com/footage/DVX100A/the_letter_full_size_plus.mov

The production notes are here:

http://redrockmicro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1116

Hey Brian,

Any word on that viewfinder flipper I heard talked about?>

Matt

Well, it's still not public, if that's what you mean!

Can you possibly make it public for me. Therefore I would buy one ;)

(Denying it at this point is like denying Area 51)

*Is whisked away by men in black suits

If I told you here, it wouldn't exactly be just telling you, would it?

Now, where is my black suit.... *rummage*

Ha ha ha....
No I fully understand. I am not special, adn if you can't tell me, that's cool.
However, if there is any word on when this "non-existant" product might come into existence, I'll start saving now. :O

Hey guys,

I also have an XL2/M2 set-up. I use the 20x lens as my relay lens, and while genuinely concerned at first with the set-up (like you seem to be Matt), I can tell you that after a while, you really do get used to it.

What most people don't understand before they purchase these 35mm adapters is that when you put that sucker on the front of an XL2, it's not really a "digital" camera anymore. In the sense that run and gun "guerilla" type filmmaking isn't really THAT possible anymore. It's more like an actual film camera set-up. With the still lenses (I use a Canon FD mount), you have to be pretty precise with your composition, lighting, camera movement, etc. But when you do all that, the results can be quite astounding. Just don't go into it thinking you can accomplish "Saving Private Ryan"-type handheld movements right off the bat. It takes practice.

Having said all that, two days after getting my M2 set-up in the mail from Redrock, I went out around Austin with my brother and tested it out. First time using it, NO tripod, it IS handheld (but relatively static). Keep in mind that it was my first time using the adapter, and I had not correctly set my GG image element, so there is a noticeable amount of flicker, but soon after posting this footage online, the guys at the redrock forums helped me fix it and the thing is a beauty now.

So again, Canon XL2 with the M2 adapter, using a Canon FD 50mm 1.4

Here's the footage: http://suitedproductions.com/redrock_test.html

Jeff,

I understand what you mena, however I have shot handheld 35mm using arri and atton cams. I have a lot of experience doing complex hand held work with follow focuses and heavy cams. My style of film making nessecsitates the ability to go handheld, hence, wanting a proper viewfinder.

Hey guys,
I've read this thread and the Red Rocks website and I still have a few questions which you could probably clear up for me if you would.

1.) The M2 requires a 72mm barrel on the relay lens. Does this mean I can use the 16x manual XL zoom as a relay lens? Is there any reason I shouldn't?

2.) If using the zoom as a relay lens do you zoom it to 20mm(because a 20mm prime was discussed as a relay lens earlier in this thread)? What about the focus and iris on the relay? Do you set it to minimum and wide open respectivley and just leave it there(using the 35mm lens to make all focus and exposure adjustments)?

3.) If using the M2 with PL mount primes can I use my follow focus for the 16x on the 35mm primes? Its set up for 15mm rods, but does anyone know if their teeth have the same pitch?

Thanks- Hunter

BUMP!

Actually, I was curious Brian,

Can the redrock body be raised up from the rail clamps? I own a mattebox and rods and would love to be able to mount it on those 15mm rods (Cavision Matte box).

Is it possible to take the M2 off the clamp, maybe put some shims under it and raise it up a few mm's?

Hey Matt

Yes, we sell a shim kit that allows you to adjust the adapter vertically - however, it's a standard 15mm/60mm center to center, so all your normal rod-mounted gear should already work fine. We have lots of cavision matte box users, chorosziel matte box/ff, etc.

Hey Brian,

That is great to hear. Since I can get away with only buying the adapter, and not rods, makes me much more likely to buy it! HOORAY!

Still wish I could shouldermount (Darn image flip... I wish someone would make a view-finder flipper... hint hint wink wink nudge nudge say no more say no more)

OK...

so let me get this right...

I have a Canon XL2. What would I need to get up and running to get this film look?

EF Adaptor for XL2?
Micro35?
what else? I have a fairly inexpensive tripod ($200 Davis & Sanford FM 18 Fluid Head) and I also have a DV Rig Pro from Veri-Zoom for the XL2)

would the above be all I need and just use my 20X lens or do I need to get another lens? If so, which one will give me a beautiful look and where can I get it?

I am gearing up to begin shooting my third short film in a month. Is there a steap learning curve on this thing or is it a matter of being good at having a steady shot and knowing how to manually focus the lens?

also, do I need another moniter for this or is the viewfinder on the XL-2 anough? I know these questions may seem dumb but I am brand new to this technology and want to make sure this is the right thing for me to sink my $$$ into.

You do not need the EF adapter,

only to make it smaller for hand held work...

Mat