Hey shannon, if you're still here, your 5 page post was both entertaining and troubling, but that aside, i'd really like to hear what you thought of the cameras and how they performed. seriously.

the fact the you're more the lay type makes your evaluation all the more interesting since that's the category i fall in to also.

By the way, I have always advocated that ergonomics should govern camera selection above all. I've been saying that for years, and will continue to do so. DV Info Net is a place to discuss technique, not senseless Ford vs. Chevy arguments. It's always been that way around here, and unfortunately more posts may have to be pulled before some folks make that realization. Those who are interested in the technique and art of digital media creation will stick around. I'm not worried about losing the mental measurebators who like to argue numbers and specs and "mine is bigger than yours;" this community was never meant for them in the first place.

Why is it so difficult for some one to shoot footage with two or three or four cameras with same subject matter, and let us look at it?

That's doesn't involve people, personalities, biases or marketing.

If we like what we see, we then have a purchasing decision to make.

at least you can test drive an automobile.

They run thousands more than any of these cameras.

Why can't we test drive a couple of lousy camcorders?

For David, we're working on that... a "Texas Shootout" involving Mike Curtis of HD For Indies and Adam Wilt as well. I'll be there to take pictures. Coming up in a few weeks.

Quite frankly, the victims here are the vast majority of the nearly 20,000 members who DO follow this board's policy (http://www.dvinfo.net/network/policy.php), but of late have had to endure an epidemic of posts with blatant violations by a few overly opinionated members. My feelings are about as vehemently stated as you'll ever see me write on this board here (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=56107).

Now, are we going to get some FACTUAL info about the CAMERAS from the shootout from any of the participants? No matter, now that Chris has said so here, yes, we have been planning to hold a Texas Shootout soon that I'm CERTAIN will avoid the acrimony of the past days.

Now, are we going to get some FACTUAL info about the CAMERAS from the shootout from any of the participants? No matter, now that Chris has said so here, yes, we have been planning to hold a Texas Shootout soon that I'm CERTAIN will avoid the acrimony of the past days.

Can we possibly get default and optimized footage from each camera of the same subject matter?

Hell (can I say that), I would even pay or agree to provide DVD ROM footage of each if someone is willing to involve me.

Now, are we going to get some FACTUAL info about the CAMERAS from the shootout from any of the participants? No matter, now that Chris has said so here, yes, we have been planning to hold a Texas Shootout soon that I'm CERTAIN will avoid the acrimony of the past days.

I agree Pete.. i swear something has leaked into the water because in the last two weeks alot of people are acting strange.

The shootout is something that should of been a very useful tool for all of us, instead it kinda turned into a war of the gods. Unfortunately there where personal attacks, which goes against mine and chris's policies. Not much useful information about the shootout actually came out.. almost a waste of alot of very talented people's time.

Its funny.. but I am glad Adam was there.. as it seems like his response is going to be the most unbiased, and probally most informative review of yesterday. I guess we gotta just wait and see.

I woke up today and really had no idea that the shootout was going to be a liablity rather than an assett for everyone that was so interested.

From the posts on this and many sites that are more into the mechanics of making film rather than the art, I see it's going to be a long journey that will show we can measure differences in millimeters but tell stories that are in kilometers. Or are miles better? Hey that could be a good topic here, which is better miles or kilometers? Will I travel farther using kilometers? Will I go faster? Hopefully at least one of you will get the point and I will have freed another person from the cabbage that is attached to their neck and has taken over their minds".

Unfortunately there where personal attacks, which goes against mine and chris's policies.

Great to hear. A consistent even handed approach to this type of conduct is to be commended.

Just to play Devil's advocate, I think discussion of specs and numbers, and shooting charts and so forth IS useful. I gives us a good starting point when assessing certain things, BUT Walter is right, it shouldn't be confused with the art of film/video making.

I think some people hoped that this test would show some kind of clear winner, that it would be some kind of "smackdown tournament", where one camera would KO the opposition. Well, surprise surprise it's NOT that easy. As Mike Curtis predicted, it turns out that each camera has trade offs and compromises.

I'm sure some people wanted the test to PROVE that their purchase decision was the best, and in some cases there may be a business agenda to push (eg. "I'll shoot this project on a **** cam, and it's been proved to be the best.")

Keep up the good work Chris. Some poeple may get sniffy about the law and order you keep around here, but frankyl, if they don't like it they can head over to usenet, rec.arts.movies.production, or rec.video.production, where they'd be torn to shreds!

I'll second that. The policies that Chris has in place are the reason that the signal to noise ratio is pretty decent around here. If that bothers people, they can visit a number of forums with 14 year olds arguing endlessly about their favorite camcorders. Do they even own those camcorders? Probably not. Do they shoot compelling video with them? Certainly not.

And I think I agree pretty much 100% with Walter. Just yesterday I gave up on the "shootout" thread elsewhere because it mostly degenerated into more 14 year olds arguing over their favorite cams. Who has time to sift through so much nonsense to get at any useful information?

Between that particular thread and other posts, I've concluded that I'm going to spend more time reading up on my weak areas: lighting/cinematography and audio. And I've got a 3 day weekend coming up here, so I might even set up my light kit and practice with my trusty $450 consumer camcorder.

Thanks for your very poignant post above. I share that same view. Like the old saying, "It's not the size, it's what you can do with it." On the golf course we've used the expression, "It's not the arrow, it's the shooter." And, just as in your examples above, those golf club manufacturers want you to think that plonking down mega cash for their latest and greatest set of irons is going to transform you into Tiger Woods. It won't.

As for your message to Pete, you'll notice we are both Wranglers here and so we 'have to endure' those posts and people in the course of keeping this place clean. That's what Pete was talking about.

-gb-

I'd really like to discuss the 4/6 camera test here. DVX-user is a very nice forum, but I 'm not registered there and it's called DVX-user fer chrissakes so the discussion is a bit tilted- But then again it's their forum.

It's curious to see the number of people reconsidering the HD100 cameras because the camera did not embarrass itself on the live tests. Personally, I think it's because ergonomically, the HD100 is a clear winner for 'Which camera is easiest for me to have grafted to my body without backstrain'. Though forum post wise it didn't look like the DSPs/lens held up very well. But with this test and the Madascar report, it looks like the JVC is THE camera to get for a documentary destined for film.

The H1 did seem to get a little shafted on the tests but I think that under such controlled conditions the DIGIC chip that Canon has grafted into the camera adds an interesting element to the sharpness. On one hand, it's sharper on res charts than it has any business being, but isn't that a good thing? Technically - Science wise- I mean the suspected digital enhancements might not hold up well in high motion - but then how often does it comes up and isn't that better than nothing?

On paper, it has SO many similarities to the Sony that I can't help but focus on the differences. To me the question becomes: Are the differences between the Canon and the Sony worth the 3-5 thousand dollars in difference?

As for the Panasonic from the test reports (not results) I'm more and more convinced the CCD's are 960x720 pixel shifted to 1080i. Unfortunately for me, I've accepted a documentary assignment in the mountains of China in March, so the p2 workflow has removed this camera from my consideration. But anyway, how much pixel shifting or uprezzing can you get away with before it becomes unacceptable? I'm not knocking the Panasonic, btw, it's a 5k camera that acts like a Varicam. I suspect that the uprezzing has been balanced by the lens. If you isolate the lens, the Leica would be the best glass of the 4 cameras.

As for the Sony. I have nothing to say. It's the measuring stick for which all the other cameras are compared against which speaks well of Sony since they were out a year before anyone else.

Thoughts from anyone else?

Hi Philip, I've been using your Greenscreen Page as a reference for years, by the way. I still give you page to all your students who approach me with questions about compositing in DV! Has the address changed as it won't load recently.

Anyway, the responses to a lot of these threads (on this forum and others) remind me of something I was told years ago, that most people pay attention to car advertisments AFTER they've made a purchase, and the ones they're most interested in are the ads for the car they've already bought.

Too many people are looking for affirmation rather than information.

I certainly hope we can get some objective tests with downloadable footage we all can evaluate.

I have the feeling that we will get nothing usable from the tests the other day. It seems it turned into a battle of egos, not cameras. It must have been a great show though! Maybe they had a security camera running and we can get a copy of that footage, of them all trying to do the tests. Might be interesting.

I'm sure the tests to be performed in the "Texas Shootout" in a few weeks will give us much more information, and it will be a fair and honest match-up. Seeing the names of those who will be there fills me with confidence.

As for other sites, I go there when linked to from here, then I leave. DVX was the same, I went to read part of the results and left shaking my head. I grew up and matured many years ago, but it seems that some just never do.

Chris and his many Wrangler helpers run a fantastic site and I belong to no other. No crazy pictures, real names, and civility. How did you like the one guy, on DVX, that had the picture of a gun pointed at a kitten?

I'll stay here and contribute in any way that I can. My thanks to Chris and all.

Mike

I've read Barry's report, and became ill reading the threads that turned from shootout into SHOUTout. I agree that many forums have become pig pens (no offense Chris - I find yours well monitored). Many times I'll be half-way into a reply, think out it, and give up for fear of being verbally attacked.

Reputation in this business is very important, and what you write and say in public forums is legal fodder that can be used against you. If anything, a moderator whom pulls a thread based on biased or personal attacks is protecting the poster from damages. Being sued for slander doesn't sound like fun.

I'll wait for Adam Wilts report, as I find he's more factual and backs things up with data.

I'm also interested in Mike Curtis' test, I hope it fosters a more mature response.

Pete

Back to the subject of this thread- first, thanks Chris for giving us a place to discuss the art. Walters' absolutely correct- way toooo much attention to tools but the truth is, the craft can only be learned in the doing and watching so we are left discussing the technology that we share.About Shannon-excuse me I didn't even bother to read the pdf copy of Shannons diatribe this time. I have enjoyed his posts in the past but his point of view about a basically private event is impossible for anyone who was not there to judge. So , since , for the most part , it was not relevant to the answers I was after, I didn't follow the bait. Life's too short. I just want to know how the hammer swings. How the brush applies the paint. There is , however, one point to be made. Users do affect the outcome of experiments. Basic quantum mechanics 101. So if what Shannon experienced made him believe that the participants would/did alter the outcome then I think his reporting is valid - i.e. w/o calling people inapporpriate names. So Chris was absolutely correct if this occured. However , and I'd like if Shannon could reply , if the characters of this scene did affect the outcome , and explain his point.
In the next 2 years , probably 90% of the people here will think seriously about buying one of these 4 cameras and we've got plenty of time esp. if you've had a sony for a while already.And I know Shannon doesn't appear to have any product loyalty so I would like to read his take on events but w/o any personal diatribes except where's it's relevant to the discussion. That can be a fine line if you're talking about peoples capacities. Some people think I'm a great painter- some think I'm not worth a crap. Guess which group are my friends. That's just life. Kurth

it looks like the JVC is THE camera to get for a documentary destined for film.


That's what I'm using it for right now.

Chris and his many Wrangler helpers run a fantastic site and I belong to no other. No crazy pictures, real names, and civility. How did you like the one guy, on DVX, that had the picture of a gun pointed at a kitten?

Some of the avatars, screen names, and language really bother me.

As to the Texas Shootout, that's were I'm looking for some downloadable footage.

I'd even agree to burning a data DVD and provide it to anyone for cost.

Test the cameras yourself and make your own decision

As for me there was so much tech talk analyzing these cameras to the molecular level that it didn't take long for me to ignore it and go try them. My interest with the tech abilities of other cameras ended when i made my choice, now i'm focusing on getting it to do what i want.

Andy.

"And, just as in your examples above, those golf club manufacturers want you to think that plonking down mega cash for their latest and greatest set of irons is going to transform you into Tiger Woods. It won't."

I have proof! In the last 15 years the average score for golfers has gone down. No Big Bertha does not make you a better golfer, nor does a camera make you abetter filmmaker. If half of these people would keep the camera they have and learn how to get better at the craft rather than getting the latest greatest thing because it keys better or it's got a nifty viewfinder or the cream of the crop, it's HD, we have better "golf averages" and then people buying clubs because they actually can benefit from it.

As someone said to me today; "I feel the DVX and the lighting kit is enough for me to learn and develop my skills". That person will be a better filmmaker than the guy who needs to have a P2 because it makes sharper pictures.

I think the proper mantra is work on being a pro and then you will not care what camera you use. I know I don't care. I use what is good for a job, but all these "wannabes" for lack of better term all think that if they get a prosumer HD camera they are somehow going to add a notch to their belt. All they are doing is adding a notch to their debt because at the end of the day when the sharper picture wears off, all you have left is the same thing you had with the camera you hocked to get this new fangled toy. In away it is not different than when was a kid and had to have something my father could not afford for Christmas, and after a month, when the hype wore off, it ended up in the closet.

Here is the reality at the end of the day, all these HD cameras are really more alike than dissimilar making just about the same picture with slightly different looks and camera ergonomics, but the same camera. Test one yourself and stop downloading some spoiled brats footage where he is riding a bike and then making a DVD to see if it's all true. Test one yourself and if you can't buy what seems to sound best for you or watch someone else's footage but make your own judgment, don't read what everyone who has no idea what they are talking about posts on the subject. . At the end of the day, it's all about taste. But somehow instead of waiting on line for vanilla, chocolate or strawberry, we are being held up because the group in front of use can't decide which would be better to order.

As for DVX, it's a nice site mostly filled with young kids and hobbyists who know little but clamor for more. Sorry that the site doesn't offer much in the way of real learning, but rather so-called "experts" who don't seem to work in the business but act as if they do and slant opinion like a Geraldo Rivera program. And all the folks like myself who do work professionally and enjoy helping others, we get banned because that disrupts the bias of the site.

Of course this is all my opinion, not fact, so if anyone disagrees don't take it personal. If these posts we make were not fact, then there would be no manes attached to them. Mine is over there in blue on the left so anything in this box is my thoughts, not necessarily yours. That holds true when you read posts on those camera by lots of different names. Even if their name is Bill Fact, it's only opinion. Just thought I remind everyone. :)

I'm logging in from a United gate at SFO, seriously delayed departure home from MacWorld, a bummer but I feel much better now that I had those drinks last night.

Here's what's up. I'm no longer interested in hosting any video from the L.A. shootout, perhaps DVX User will do that if they wish, right now I consider that project to be a DVX User thing since Barry Green gave a pretty clear report (thankfully free from personal diatribe). I too look forward to Adam Wilt's write-up in DV Magazine.

For the Texas Shootout we will offer a DVD at cost (as low cost as possible). All right, looks like we're boarding! I'm outta here.

"And, just as in your examples above, those golf club manufacturers want you to think that plonking down mega cash for their latest and greatest set of irons is going to transform you into Tiger Woods. It won't."

I have proof! In the last 15 years the average score for golfers has gone down. No Big Bertha does not make you a better golfer, nor does a camera make you abetter filmmaker. If half of these people would keep the camera they have and learn how to get better at the craft rather than getting the latest greatest thing because it keys better or it's got a nifty viewfinder or the cream of the crop, it's HD, we have better "golf averages" and then people buying clubs because they actually can benefit from it.

Ok Walter. First thing about golf you need to know is average scores going down is a good thing. Golf is an attempt to make the fewest strokes possible during the round(grin). But seriously, I know what you meant.

And I'm still having a good time with my XL2 cameras and loving the pictures that come out as I become a better camera operator.

-gb-

For the Texas Shootout we will offer a DVD at cost (as low cost as possible). All right, looks like we're boarding! I'm outta here.

Great, that's what I've been suggesting all along.

If I can help, please let me know.

And we are talking about a data DVD. Nothing compressed

Hi Philip, I've been using your Greenscreen Page as a reference for years, by the way. I still give you page to all your students who approach me with questions about compositing in DV! Has the address changed as it won't load recently.

Hi Dylan, glad people are still getting good use from the Greenscreen page.. or at least were until recently :(

Long story short, my free hosting dissappeared unexpectedly a while back. I've got a new server sitting in Atlanta waiting to be hooked up next week. philipwilliams.com will be alive soon, I promise!

Snip For the Texas Shootout we will offer a DVD at cost (as low cost as possible). All right, looks like we're boarding! I'm outta here.

Chris, is there no chance of hosting some clips from the Texas shootout? A low cost DVD is a great idea - if you can find a UK distributor, as the cost of mailing across the atlantic I think would make it prohibitive for many over here.

Philip, looking forward to seeing www.philipwilliams.com the rebirth. Its so much easier for me to give my students a link than go through the explanation myself. (I'm not lazy, honest, it's just its not core curriculum stuff). Any chance there will be some HDV greenscreen tests up there in the new future? :-)

The thing is, great tools are there to give artists and craftspeople opportunities. There has to be a balance between technology and artistry. Yes you can create great films with cheap DV cams, or even hi8, and you can create dismal lumpen trash with big budgets, 35mm, vanloads of kit, and hordes of experienced crew behind you. However, there are still virtues in well designed kit, and filmmakers or videomakers should know how to get the best from their materials. Da Vinci knew everything there was to know at the time about how to get the best from oil paints, and how to mix certain colours and materials (including,m I believe, egg white and urine) as well as having the eye to compose a great image.

Dylan, hopefully Chris is finally winging his way back home, so I'll jump in here. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn, but I think that regarding not posting clips, he was just referring to this past weekend's shootout in CA. I don't think the offer of a DVD was meant to imply that no clips will go online from the TX Shootout.

But of course, with the high interest in this and the large file sizes, you'll probably see more frame grabs online than clips...gotta watch that server bandwidth! But heck, if it came to that, I only have a little personal web site and I'd even be willing to post a limited number of short TX Shootout clips myself, and I'm sure others would do the same. No worries, friends.

since the header of this thread has Shannon Rawls name in it let me say this...

i just read his very funny and long post, i think he should hire a writer and turn it into a short story, this camcorder shootout turned out better then i have ever dreamed, it was all very funny for someone like me standing on the outside looking in, thanks to Shannons complete honesty...

in the end it touched my funny bone so it was all worth it

That , Chris, is exactly what is needed. Please let us know when, where , & how. Back to the cameras- I love hearing that my zbaby is in the same league with the new babies but the feature set , esp. on the hvx is so unique that I , for one , want a robust discussion. My problem , and I'm sure I'm not alone , is I don't live where I can handson each of these cameras. I might be foolish , but I've bought every camera I own in the last 17 years since I've lived in mexico w/o handson trials including the z1 and I haven't been sorry yet. I used the opinions here to decide on the z1 and I'll probably do the same if I decide to get the hvx. That said , I'd 10x prefer a dvd to help me decide . I'd love a dvd w/full feature set tests on these babes. It's the next step and I can't believe the manufacturers don't do it themselves. If Chris can pull this off, he should get a kickback , let's say a point on each sale influenced by his dvd. That'll buy some new servers or pay for his new camera !Thanks Kurth

Walter, quite frankly, the victims here are the vast majority of the nearly 20,000 members who DO follow this board's policy (http://www.dvinfo.net/network/policy.php), but of late have had to endure an epidemic of posts with blatant violations by a few overly opinionated members. My feelings are about as vehemently stated as you'll ever see me write on this board here (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=56107).

Now, are we going to get some FACTUAL info about the CAMERAS from the shootout from any of the participants? No matter, now that Chris has said so here, yes, we have been planning to hold a Texas Shootout soon that I'm CERTAIN will avoid the acrimony of the past days.

Can we get this Statement mailed in triplicate to every forum member on the dvinfo / dvxuser planet ? This sums it up perfectly.

People are acting unstable.

Snip

Chris, is there no chance of hosting some clips from the Texas shootout? A low cost DVD is a great idea - if you can find a UK distributor, as the cost of mailing across the atlantic I think would make it prohibitive for many over here.


How do you define prohibitive? I distribute some books and software to clients all over the world and typically ship via Registered Airmail. My shipping cost is typically under $20 USD.

Walter--Love the West Side Story comments! How appropriate.

Dylan, hopefully Chris is finally winging his way back home, so I'll jump in here. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn, but I think that regarding not posting clips, he was just referring to this past weekend's shootout in CA. I don't think the offer of a DVD was meant to imply that no clips will go online from the TX Shootout.

Actually I assumed the other way, I got the feeling Chris has handed the California standoff (if we're going to give out titles) over to DVXuser, for Jared Land and Barry Green to over see, seeing as Shannon's post seems to have got things off on the wrong foot over here.

If it could be kept to under $20 then yes, that would be doable. provided the package would be marked as "no material value". I had a friend badly stung by a company that sent a training DVD worth about $80 and labelled it as software worth $150. Customs picked him up on it and charged him import duty on the fictional $150. I tihnk the DVD produ cers were hoping to gouge some extra money on any lost or damaged discs.

When DV found a way into the professional market in a limited aspect, dreams of folks who could never afford professional equipment were suddenly realized and answered. Now "I" could shoot just like a pro. It is no different than wanting to be like Michael Jordan. No one could but once Nike put his name on a pair of shoes and paid him millions to wear them in commercials, anyone could feel closer to that dream. And the marketing of prosumer cameras has taken a step further.

I differ on this opinion. My Air Jordans don't make my basketball game the slightest bit better. My prosumer camera does make my footage better.

Thanks to Michael Pappas' link I was able to read Shannon's initial post - with much amusement. I however would like to see future comments as a video, for I can imagine this to be much more genial than the pure text. While fully understanding and supporting Chris' strict devotion to polite professionalism, I would definitely see Shannon's "in-the-face-street-cred"-style as an enrichment for this site - in addition to and not despite of its seriousity. From the text I can find not even a hint that anyone cheated on the settings. Since the only appropriate comment on this "character assassination / attorney counsel / allegation"-wannabee-drama-trash would probably lead to my banning, I leave it to your imagination.

Humour anyone? Ever heard of Hitch's practical jokes? I wonder how he ever managed to make films without being crucified.

Okay, now that I'm finally home... been a long day at the SFO airport and in the air...

This weekend I will restore the Shannon Rawls report, the pertinent technical parts, minus the personal diatribe and flames. Too bad I couldn't do this earlier as it might have avoided a lot of the ruffled feathers, but I was too busy with real-life work at MacWorld.

Regarding the L.A. shootout, DV Info Net will not host video clips from that event. Hopefully DVX User will. It's in Barry and Jarred's hands to do as they see fit. I wash my hands of that affair completely. I'm hoping that there's some benefit to the L.A. shootout video that makes it worthy of hosting at DVX User, but of course it's their call completely. I hope they choose to put some stuff online.

Regarding the Texas shootout, DV Info Net *will* host *selected" video clips... not a lot, but a few... plus still frames plus production shots. We are planning on a companion DVD or set of DVDs with plenty of material, to sell at or very near cost. This will not be a DV Info Net item and I will take no personal profit whatsoever from those sales. Rather it will be an HD For Indies item or an HD For Indies / DV Info Net joint collaboration. Whatever it is, sales of the DVD will be used only to recover the cost of producing it and anything made beyond that will be applied to offset the cost of doing the shootout. Hope that's clear enough to understand.

Regarding Michael Pappas and Shannon Rawls, I would like to strongly encourage them to start their own website / message board / blog / whatever, which they can run however they see fit, and indulge themselves in all manner of conspiracy theories, urban legends, street drama, virtual drive-by's, manhood measuring, number crunching, pixel counting, ranting, railing, whining, crying, he-said she-said, mine's better than yours, who stinks revelations, who's biased judgement calls, and all the other crap that I wish they wouldn't post on DV Info Net and have asked them time and time again not to. And I hope *that's* clear enough to understand.

JUST HUNG UP THE PHONE WITH BARRY GREEN. We talked for 2 hours 2 minutes 34 seconds.

*smile*

It's remarkable how when two "real men" talk face-to-face or phone-to-phone, things get understood and resolved so much more then they ever could have on the internet or through email.

Listen Everybody.....and I hope everybody hears me well......
BARRY GREEN DID NOT DO ANYTHING "UNDERHANDED" OR "SNEAKY" OR "DISHONEST" DURING THE CAMERA TEST. IF ANYBODY DEDUCED THAT FROM MY REPORT, YOU READ IT WRONG. BARRY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING LIKE THAT. I DID NOT SEE ANYTHING LIKE THAT, I DID NOT WITNESS BARRY GREEN DO ANYTHING LIKE THAT....AND HONESTLY, I DO NOT THINK BARRY EVEN "TOUCHED" ANY OTHER CAMERA THERE BESIDES THE PANASONIC HVX200. HE REFUSED TO HANDLE THEM, SO IT IS "IMPOSSIBLE" FOR HIM TO PUT ANY CAMERA AT A DISADVATAGE OR CHANGE ANY SETTINGS ON ANY OF THOSE CAMERAS. BARRY GREEN ONLY HANDLED THE PANASONIC HVX200 AND DID HIS VERY BEST TO MAKE SURE THAT CAMERA PERFORMED IT'S VERY BEST DURING THE TESTS. WHICH IS WHAT WAS CLEARLY STATED EARLY THAT MORNING AS OUR ULTIMATE GOAL.

basically, HE DID WHAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO DO.

ADDITIONALLY, WHEN TESTING THE PANASONIC HVX200, I WATCHED BARRY AS CLOSE AS I COULD. EVERYTIME JAY ASKED HIM TO CHANGE A SETTING, THAT IS "ALL" HE CHANGED. I NEVER SEEN HIM CHANGE SOMETING "OTHER" THEN WHAT HE WAS INSTRUCTED TO CHANGE.

SHANNON W. RAWLS <---- IS WRONG FOR MAKING ANYBODY THINK OTHERWISE, AND AS A RESULT....I RETRACT ANY STATEMENTS I HAVE EVER MADE THAT WOULD GIVE ANYBODY THE IMPRESSION THAT BARRY UNDERHANDLEDLY DID THINGS THAT HE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DOING. BARRY DID NOT RIG ANYTING. THE TEST WAS UN-RIGABLE. BARRY DID NOT LIE TO ANYBODY EITHER, SO GET THAT OUT YOUR HEADS.

I would like to make this same statement at DVXUSER, but I can't, if someone can copy/paste it there, that would be appreciated.

Barry tried to have phone sex with me, but I refused. *smile*

.... JUST KIDDING...THAT WAS A JOKE.....I AM LYING...THAT IS NOT TRUE....but do you guys see what kinda guy I am now?.....So if you misunderstood what I wrote in my report, I am sorry, but you're wrong.

Chris.....slice & dice my report as you see fit! *smile* Also Chris, I responded to the JVCHD100 over in the hd100 area about how that camera performed well about 2 hours ago. It has been removed as well. Please edit that post and restore it too please.

- ShannonRawls.com

I would like to make this same statement at DVXUSER, but I can't, if someone can copy/paste it there, that would be appreciated.
I'd like to, but I'm a little worried, as one of my other posts had already been deleted when referencing the resurrection of your account here. If I do something similar again, I could get zotted.

Barry tried to have phone sex with me, but I refused. *smile*
LMAO, there's nothing like make-up phone sex.

i'd really like to hear what you thought of the cameras and how they performed. seriously.

the fact the you're more the lay type makes your evaluation all the more interesting since that's the category i fall in to also.
Brian, I would love to give you the REAL DEAL, but I can't. I don't know how. I am too harsh for DVINFO apparently. My style of writing would be PERFECT for DVXUSER, but only if anything made by Panasonic was exhaulted. Unfortunately I don't exhault any particular manufacturer, I only exhault the BEST equipment, and I do so with a sharp tongue. Currently, my style of writing doesn't agree with any DV website currently available on the internet. I tend to tell it like it is, and I use words that allow you to 'read' what I'm saying as if you were actully sitting here drinking a beer and 'hearing' me in real life. Alas, when I sit with friends, I damn sure am not Politically Correct. And I need to be here.

Chris keep suggesting that me and Pappas start our own website.....Funny thing is, I already own an extremely popular discussion forum that I allow everybody to say what they hell they want to. *smile* So if I owned a DV forum website, the same would go there as well. So Chris' idea is a good one.

There's just one problem

I LIKE IT HERE! *smile*

- ShannonRawls.com

Great, then maybe you can get Michael Pappas to remove that pirated PDF he has been circulating. It carries DV Info Net branding and I have not given him nor anyone else permission to re-distribute my brand. Not very cool, and so very serious. And yes I will restore that HD100 thread, tomorrow.

Shannon.

In reading your posts earlier, it appeared that you were saying that Green was finding mostly no fault with the Panny's performance and characteristics, and finding fault with each of the other cameras on a somewhat consistent basis.

Not saying that was exactly what you meant, but that's how I at least was interpretting it.

Are you now saying that was not what you attempted to convey?

I'm just trying to evaluate a big purchase decision for us, and I'm like a lot people here and elsewhere looking for objective, unbiased information about performance.

thanks.

David, you're correct. That is exaclty what I was saying.

WHat I am addressing above is how some people are twisting my words up and taking things the wrong way.

Unlike you, some people are out there lying and saying I said Barry lied about something! (lies about lies....that's funny. lol)
Man, Barry didn't lie about anything! I never said that or even IMPLIED that he lied about something. Lied?? Lied about WHAT??? Yet & still, people are saying I said that.

People are even saying that I said "Barry rigged the test!" WTF??? I never said anything like that....Rigged the test??? HOW???? Dude, this is not the 2000 presidential election!!!!





*calm down shannon*







count to 10 (1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10)

Breathe In...........*ooooooo*............Let it out........*ahhhhhhhhhh*


David,

What I am saying is I never called Barry a LIAR & Barry did not "rig" any test. He couldn't, I was there!
It's kinda hard to explain in typed words.

- ShannonRawls.com

Can we move forward please. Thank you.

I agree. Actually, what does this thread have to do with the useability of HD/HDV. It should be locked or deleted.

- Shannon

Let's call the arbitrator in....

Wow. I'm bummed.

I worked too hard for too long that day for this test to be discredited. I'm sure soon enough that charts will be posted so people will realize the test was indeed worth paying attention to.

More than my own though were the efforts of Jay Nemeth and Adam Wilt. Jay, by far, worked the hardest that day. I'm sure right now he is shaking his head and telling himself he'll never do this again. I hope I'm wrong on that, though.

There will be a writeup by Adam Wilt eventually. He will be voice without hyperbole.

I'm not discrediting it, Nate. Not by a long shot. I know you guys worked hard that day. My position is that the results should all be housed under one roof for clarity and ease. So far the best technical presentation of the shootout results, meaning, the most useful write-up has been given by Barry Green at DVX User.

Therefore DVX User is the best candidate to host the accompanying images and clips. If I were you, I'd petition Barry and Jarred to do just that. Content of this type is best when it's all together in one place... the write-up, the clips, the stills, the discussions. So far, DVX User has the best, most useful write-up from a technical standpoint. Let's encourage them to post the charts as well. Those charts have no business here because there's no useful technical write-up to go with them. Instead all we have is one of the worst profanity-laden flame wars in our history and a boatload of locked threads and pulled posts full of worthless non-technical and inappropriate junk. Which seriously bums me out, so I know just how you feel.

Having known Adam Wilt for a number of years, I have no doubt that his forthcoming print article for DV Magazine will provide everyone with a clear, concise and understandable overview of that day's proceedings and will easily validate all of your hard-working effort many times over.

Does anyone know how long it will take Adam's write up to be published? Will his article as be on dv.com? It's pretty hard to find DV magazine in canada, in fact I'm not even sure if I've seen it here ever.

Typically print articles for DV Magazine require about a 30-day turnaround or so; some pieces make it to their web site upon print publication or shortly afterwards. I would expect that Adam's shootout article would go to the web.

I'm sorry but there wasn't going to be credibility to the shootout even before the mudslinging because each of the protagonists carries a brand agenda. An argument broke out over the terms of the spin being applied. Why would anyone expect more? Please let this die and learn from it.