so i'm pretty much set on getting the XL-2, but (and i realize you guys may be biased) are there any reasons not to get it? are there camera's that, in your experience, perform better in low light, extreme temperatures, have better resolution, etc? is there any camera that is just overall better? i'm looking to start shooting short form narrative films, and maybe one day a feature.

in short, what are the down sides to this camera?

so i'm pretty much set on getting the XL-2, but (and i realize you guys may be biased) are there any reasons not to get it? are there camera's that, in your experience, perform better in low light, extreme temperatures, have better resolution, etc? is there any camera that is just overall better? i'm looking to start shooting short form narrative films, and maybe one day a feature.

in short, what are the down sides to this camera?

I have an XL2 and love it, but I guess I can give some negative stuff!

1. You are not going to walk around in public without drawing attention to yourself! A lot of attention!

2. Some cameras, like some Sony and Pany models, are better in low light. So if very low light performance is something you need, there are better cameras.

3 It requires more sturdy support gear than say a small Sony or JVC. The tripod head will have to be beefier, and preferably have counter balance springs, like a Bogan 503, or better. It is heavier and it will wear you out if you try to lug it around a lot.

4. You will suffer a deep need, a hunger to buy additional toys to use with it, like cool lenses, lens adapters, a B&W viewfinder, and many other things. It can seriously hurt your pocketbook.

5. The camera is really good at making you feel stupid! All of those available settings!!!! A whole new world to learn and to play with! If you old and stupid like me, you get the urge to turn that dial to one of the auto modes, but you need to try and resist that.

I hope this helps somewhat. If you can, go to a store and put one in your hands. Try many cameras and get the one that suits you needs and pocketbook. Sometimes ergonomics and price are more important than resolution. Just be honest with yourself with what you really need and can afford. Maybe you will decide to spend less on a camera and more on lights and other items you need.

Have fun.

Mike

4. You will suffer a deep need, a hunger to buy additional toys to use with it, like cool lenses, lens adapters, a B&W viewfinder, and many other things. It can seriously hurt your pocketbook.


LOL

I bought this beast november 04. Now I have the following acessories:
- 3x wide
- Miller Arrow HD head/tripod (almost the price of the XL-2 itself!)
- Kata rainjacket
- Sennheiser MK 67 shotguns (2 each)
- A good headphone
- Spare batteries BP-945 (5 each)
- Canon ef-adapter
- ef-lenses (Canon 70-200mm, Canon 300mm)
- The Ronsrail and Ronssight
- Canon 1.4 extender
- Filters, uv, polarization, grey
- Pelicase 1620 (to be able to take with me all this stuff)



So, I realise that I don't need any pocketbook anymore ;-)


5. The camera is really good at making you feel stupid! All of those available settings!!!! A whole new world to learn and to play with! If you old and stupid like me, you get the urge to turn that dial to one of the auto modes, but you need to try and resist that.


Have you guys been looking at this site:
http://dvestore.com/theatre/index.html

Click on the link - Watch the XL2 Feature Tour Video!
I learned a lot about XL-2 settings from that tour!


- Per Johan

I haven't had the camera for *too* long, but I can say you shouldn't expect good results with it unless you really learn everything about the manual settings. For example, I only just recently started shooting everthing on full manual (not aperture or shutter priority, which are also very good), and the difference between good manual shooting and full automatic shooting is MAJOR, in my opinion. It's the differnce between a crappy-video look and a look that borders on cinematic, depending on many variables.

I also have to agree that you will have to buy stuff for it... for example, I've decided I need a mini35 adapter (but can't afford it) so I started making one ~ The things this camera will drive you to! ;)

Hmm, what else... you will see many people saying the gain should be left on -3 or 0 all the time, and I have to agree (assuming you like quality). Unfortunately, it does leave the camera lacking in low light like Mike said... you will need additional lighting if you want all the quality you can get.

LOL


Have you guys been looking at this site:
http://dvestore.com/theatre/index.html

Click on the link - Watch the XL2 Feature Tour Video!
I learned a lot about XL-2 settings from that tour!


- Per Johan

Per,

Man, I would love to see the tour movie, but unfortunetly it will not play for me. I have it saved, but each time I try to play it, it says it won't play because it has a "bad public movie atom" in it. I have no idea what that means, and it really sounds silly. Just won't play. I can't put QT7 on, because it interfers with other software on my PC's.

I won't tell you how much money I have spent, as the men in the white coats may show up and take me away!!!! He he ha ha ho ho!

Have fun--Mike

I have to agree with all the points mentioned by Mike.

Undue attention? Check!

Feeling stupid and the 'poor light performance' came hand in hand during a corporate conference shoot. Afterwards I discovered how grainy the image was, fortunately the clients never commented on it!

Urge to buy more gear? Check! I think for me the thing behind this urge is that suddenly I have this professional camera, which not only is professional but looks professional, then I realised that all my other kit, is really not up to it, e.g. poor microphones (tinny and no XLR), field construction lights instead of redheads, etc etc.)

Since I bought the XL2, i've spent at least as much again on the rest of the gear to go with it, and my next purchase is a FireStore drive ( I dont even really need one! I just wanna velcro it to the back of the camera so it looks cool! My poor bank! )

Sturdier tripod and feeling stupid also went together, at the exact moment my weak little £20 tripod buckled and I nearly lost my beloved XL2 to some white water rapids!

Other than those little problems, all external to the camera, buy it, its the best money you'll ever spend and the only big purchase I haven't experienced buyers remorse on.

One of the big criticisms of the camera when it first came out relates to the fact that color reproduction is more accurate than it was in the previous (XL1s) member of this series. The XL2 was thought by several to produce pale, muted colors which, relative to the XL1s, it does. Most came to appreciate the accuracy, eventually, and those that wanted brighter colors learned to boost them by increasing the chroma gain in the camera or, preferrably, in post.

Man, I would love to see the tour movie, but unfortunetly it will not play for me. I have it saved, but each time I try to play it, it says it won't play because it has a "bad public movie atom" in it.

Mike, QT sucks for the reasons you mentioned. Definitely anti-PC software. I got the exact same results as you. If you can find the file on your machine, then download the VLC player from Videolan. It'll play it, no problem, and no hassle from the Mac-a-bees.

- Kata rainjacket
- Pelicase 1620 (to be able to take with me all this stuff)

Per,

Now that my XL-2 outfit is on the way, I'll be thinking of a raincoat for it, especially as we are in our 25th consecutive day of rain! So far I see there's CamKote, Porta-Brace, Petrol, and Kata. I assume that you have their CRC-11? They say it's "custom fitted to the XL-1s" which isn't a ringing endorsement. The XL-2 is longer, and I'll have an IDX Endura battery adapter out back, too. I was curious as to your impressions about it.

I've also peered at the Pelican 1620 case (25 days of rain and that water is rising fast). I don't know if I'll need to carry the whole kitchen sink, but it looks right, given the internal length dimension.

so i'm pretty much set on getting the XL-2, but (and i realize you guys may be biased) are there any reasons not to get it? are there camera's that, in your experience, perform better in low light, extreme temperatures, have better resolution, etc? is there any camera that is just overall better? i'm looking to start shooting short form narrative films, and maybe one day a feature.

in short, what are the down sides to this camera?

Can't think of any reason, you should have it already, you said it yourself, you're pretty much set on getting so what's the hold up?

Enjoy the cam, you're going to love it.

I assume that you have their CRC-11? They say it's "custom fitted to the XL-1s" which isn't a ringing endorsement. The XL-2 is longer, and I'll have an IDX Endura battery adapter out back, too. I was curious as to your impressions about it.


You are right its the CRC-11, and its quite small with the 20x lense, but using smaller lenses like the 3x wide it match well. But you are not able to fit it with any battery-pack out back!!

The Pelicase 1620 is large, but you are able to get room for most of the "stuff" you need in one case!

- Per Johan

I've had mine for a little over a year, and love it. As to reasons NOT to buy one, for most people it's because it's NOT HDV.

But if you're not on the HDV bandwagon, or looking to get on soon, then I'd say it's the best DV camera out there. Different cams have their strengths and weaknesses, but all around, I'd say it's the best.

Nit picking issues I've discovered with mine.

The little 'door' that covers the RCA line ports is kinda cheezy. Tends to pop loose now and again.(At least on mine)

The eject button can sometimes be bumped by your hand while holding it by the handle, causing the cassette to rise, without opening the door.

It's HEAVY. I shoot mostly on tripod, and I shoot with a full ENG setup - that means the FU-1000 viewfinder and 16x Manual lens, with the Dual batt pack on the back.

You can FRY the main circuit board of the camera or the lens if you change the lens without powering down.

If you are not paying attention, it's easy to accidently set the 'gain' button... turning the gain to 'automatic'. In this position, NO GAIN INFORMATION will show in the viewfinder. Funny, when the gain is OFF, it reads +/-0 When it's ON -3, it shows up in the VF, when its ON +3,,9 whatever -it shows up. But if it's on AUTOMATIC you can have the gain running up and down in the course of a shot, and never know it till playback. (Admittedly this is entirely Operator error, but I'd like to see an "AUTO" reading in the viewfinder when the gain is on automatic.)

You can accidently hit 'standby' when reaching for the white balance button. Again, this is an ergonomic operator error that comes from not taking my eyes of the viewfinder while pushing buttons. Lesson learned.

But really, it's a great camera. Mine has already paid for itself in a year, so no regrets if later I want to sell it and go HD. But frankly, my choice is to sit out HDV/HD for at least another year.

hey, thanks! i didn't expect such prompt response. so it sounds like you've all pretty much confirmed my intention to get this camera. awesome.

now can anybody out there loan me five grand?

hey, thanks! i didn't expect such prompt response. so it sounds like you've all pretty much confirmed my intention to get this camera. awesome.

now can anybody out there loan me five grand?

Benjamin,

Do you know what vigorish means? :)

Mike

BTW, I have the Kata CRC15, and it fights very nicely over everything, including two BP945's, 20X, lens hood and has slots for external monitors and such. Good rain cover

Mike, QT sucks for the reasons you mentioned. Definitely anti-PC software. I got the exact same results as you. If you can find the file on your machine, then download the VLC player from Videolan. It'll play it, no problem, and no hassle from the Mac-a-bees.

Must be a problem with your PC. I checked the file info on those movies and they are PC friendly Sorenson 3video with MP3 audio.

Mike, QT sucks for the reasons you mentioned. Definitely anti-PC software. I got the exact same results as you. If you can find the file on your machine, then download the VLC player from Videolan. It'll play it, no problem, and no hassle from the Mac-a-bees.

Doug,

Thank you VERY much! It did work and now I can watch it. Funny thing is it said it was already on my computer, but it couldn't find it anywhere, so just added the new one.

Glad you are still speaking to me! :)

Will drop you an email.

Mike

edited for content...

It's HEAVY. I shoot mostly on tripod, and I shoot with a full ENG setup - that means the FU-1000 viewfinder and 16x Manual lens, with the Dual batt pack on the back.


Damn Rich, how much does all that weigh!!! BTW, why the B&W viewfinder over the color one? Also with the battery pack on the back, where are you mounting the wireless mics that you surely have?

Miguel

Man, I would love to see the tour movie, but unfortunetly it will not play for me. I have it saved, but each time I try to play it, it says it won't play because it has a "bad public movie atom" in it. I have no idea what that means, and it really sounds silly.

Mike, (and others)
this mean that the Digital Right Management (DRM) is corrupt in the file... you need a player that doesn't read DRM like the latter post.

For me the XL2 is like the Money Pit - I keep wanting to buy more and more and more for it... I just wish we had the time to use it.

Miguel.. the B&W viewfinder is used because color screens emits radiation that will eventually damage your eyes. Also it's easier to focus amoung other things.

back to video server configs.....

Mike, (and others)
this mean that the Digital Right Management (DRM) is corrupt in the file... you need a player that doesn't read DRM like the latter post.

For me the XL2 is like the Money Pit - I keep wanting to buy more and more and more for it... I just wish we had the time to use it.

Miguel.. the B&W viewfinder is used because color screens emits radiation that will eventually damage your eyes. Also it's easier to focus amoung other things.

back to video server configs.....


Thanks Frank,

Using Doug's suggestion I downloaded the Player and it works great! This is the movie I have been waiting for. I have "The Ultimate Guide to the Canon XL2," but it is very disapointing, IMHO.

The FU-1000 Viewfinder uses a CRT instead of LCD screen, don't know and never heard of the radiation factor. The CRT is a higher ressolution, and I believe it also has underscan or at least is more accurate in frameing. Most find it very much better at obtaining a correct focus.

Just finished watching the movie and feel really energized now.

Good luck all---Mike

BTW, I have the Kata CRC15, and it fights very nicely over everything,

I'm kind of surprised by that. It looks like it's designed for smaller handycam-style cameras. I'm leaning towards a Cam-Kote.

the B&W viewfinder is used because color screens emits radiation that will eventually damage your eyes. Also it's easier to focus amoung other things.

That's something I've never heard of, either. Any circuit operating at or above 16 kV will emit x-rays, but I believe these 1.5" CRTs operate at much lower voltages. B&W is used because there is no shadow mask and you get the maximum resolution and luminance detail necessary for critical focusing. Any color display, be it LCD or CRT, will have less resolution. The downside of the CRT viewfinders is the power drain of a couple of watts or more.

Frank, do you have any sources for your opinion about viewfinder radiation dangers?

I'd be amazed if both viewfinders were anything but perfectly safe from a radiation standpoint. But **theoretically**, IF one were a risk, it would be the FU-1000. The color viewfinder is an LCD screen, so should emit only negligible RF; the FU-1000 is an actual CRT, so uses an electron beam like any TV set. That is radiation, but at a very low level and the same as with B&W TVs. So I'm doubtful pending reading source documents.

I'm simply not aware of any concerns related to the use of such a device. But I'll double check with our eye expert at work on Tuesday just to be absolutely certain. If you have a source, let us know -- o/w let's not get into FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt).

I've had mine for a little over a year, and love it. As to reasons NOT to buy one, for most people it's because it's NOT HDV.

But if you're not on the HDV bandwagon, or looking to get on soon, then I'd say it's the best DV camera out there. Different cams have their strengths and weaknesses, but all around, I'd say it's the best.

Nit picking issues I've discovered with mine.

The little 'door' that covers the RCA line ports is kinda cheezy. Tends to pop loose now and again.(At least on mine)

The eject button can sometimes be bumped by your hand while holding it by the handle, causing the cassette to rise, without opening the door.

It's HEAVY. I shoot mostly on tripod, and I shoot with a full ENG setup - that means the FU-1000 viewfinder and 16x Manual lens, with the Dual batt pack on the back.

You can FRY the main circuit board of the camera or the lens if you change the lens without powering down.

If you are not paying attention, it's easy to accidently set the 'gain' button... turning the gain to 'automatic'. In this position, NO GAIN INFORMATION will show in the viewfinder. Funny, when the gain is OFF, it reads +/-0 When it's ON -3, it shows up in the VF, when its ON +3,,9 whatever -it shows up. But if it's on AUTOMATIC you can have the gain running up and down in the course of a shot, and never know it till playback. (Admittedly this is entirely Operator error, but I'd like to see an "AUTO" reading in the viewfinder when the gain is on automatic.)

You can accidently hit 'standby' when reaching for the white balance button. Again, this is an ergonomic operator error that comes from not taking my eyes of the viewfinder while pushing buttons. Lesson learned.

But really, it's a great camera. Mine has already paid for itself in a year, so no regrets if later I want to sell it and go HD. But frankly, my choice is to sit out HDV/HD for at least another year.

Hi Richard

Thanks, your comments are very interesting. I am sure there are a number of us with the XL2 who are thinking about HDV and would echo your thoughts about waiting a year. I though am more interested in your comments about the ENG set up you use and the mono viewfinder. I have been using my XL2 on wildlife for a year and would appreciate your advice about the 16x manual lens in terms of image quality - with the idea that it could be used on the XLHI body as and when it is purchased - (I wonder if a 2/3" Canon ENG could be adapted - especially one with a X2 adapter). The same goes for the viewfinder system - I had a chance to have a look in a Sony mono HD viewfinder recently and I was very impressed with the clarity, I wonder how much advantage the Canon mono viewfinder would give me. Incidentally, when I was using Polaroid for image determination in my artificial light photographic studio, pre -digital, we were recommended to use black and white rather than colour because the contrast ratio and highlight rendering was closer to colour transparency. I wonder if there is an element of that in using a mono viewfinder, notwithstanding the obvious issue of clarity and resolution. Relatedly, most directors in the old days used to use a green filter in their 'prime simulation viewing optic' to get a monochrome effect so as to gauge contrast ratios when using real film.

I have to say, for an ex 16mm man, there have been some quite disconcerting anomalies with the XL2 when used in combination with the standard 20x lens set up: Dramatic purple colour fringing at full zoom, where there is a strongly delineated darkish image against a grey sky= chromatic aberration. Jaggies on moving leading edge highlight areas =clash of frame rate and shutter speed, and or aperture, which I have still not solved...

I would appreciate your further comments.

Rod Compton

UK

Rod,
The 16x manual is a tad sharper than the 20x. Of course, you loose the image stabilization. It's also a bit faster, especially at the long end. This can come in handy if your trying to achieve the apparent look of shallow DOF as you know.

I don't own a 20x, but I don't see the kind of CA you are talking about on the 16x. Is it as good as BROADCAST glass for 2/3 cams??? Mmmm, Ive seen worse.

There's a thread going somewhere, that speaks to the use of the 16x with the new H1. Apparently, it holds up well. Not TECHNICALLY HD mind you, but holds up well.

The FU-1000 is definately a great aid in critical focussing. And the underscan is nice too.

Best thing I can recommend is to borrow/rent them and give them a whirl. I had used them (and the 14x, which is a sweet lens) on an Xl1 for years before purchasing the xl2.

Rod,

I too have a full ENG setup XL2. I love the FU-1000 because of the aid in focusing it provides. It also shows the full frame and is about 700 lines of resolution. The FU-1000 is actually made by Ikegami for Canon. You wouldn't be disappointed with using one. The peaking control acts as a focus assist. Objects in focus will have a white highlight around them. Another less talked about feature of the FU-1000 is that it has a small lens light on the bottom that can be turned on or off with a switch on the underside. Great for seeing the barrel markings of the 16X manual when shooting at night.

Because the human eye is more sensitive to luminance than chrominance, having a b/w viewfinder helps tremendously.

regards,

-gb-