Is quick time pro with a G4 the best and cheapest way to capture from the HVX?

This is getting very expensive and I need to cut costs where I can, but still have good equipment for the film. I'm getting a couple of G4 power books (Old/new from MacMall) with 1.65g processors and 1.5g of ram to record from the HVX to a raid HD setup and I was wondering if anyone has any info on using Quick time 7 pro as the capture utility. I have FCP and a Quad G5 to edit with, but I can only put FCP on the G5. FCE is too expensive to buy for the laptops at this point, as I need to have enough money for new tripods, etc and to pay the cast and crew this summer during the shoot. I called apple tech support but they couldn't answer the question and suggested I post the question here.

David

You could pretty easily just use the Powerbooks to drag the files over from the cards. There may be some software out there that'd let you view them, but I'm not positive about that. If you could get Final Cut on one of the laptops, that'd be perfect, but you say that that doesn't look like it'll be possible.

You could pretty easily just use the Powerbooks to drag the files over from the cards. There may be some software out there that'd let you view them, but I'm not positive about that. If you could get Final Cut on one of the laptops, that'd be perfect, but you say that that doesn't look like it'll be possible.

I can only put one copy of FCP on one machine, and my G5 is that machine for editing. You know Jobs needs my money to support his many vices I guess, so they will not let it be installed on more than one machine. So I need a cheaper solution that will work for sure with 1080i 24p capture.

David

I'm assuming you're not planning on buying the P2 cards, in order to save money. Your plan is to capture directly through the laptop to the raid.

That being said, you need to have an application that captures DVCProHD over Firewire. I don't think Quicktime Pro even does that. I don't of any low-cost, standalone application that does that.

That being said, this camera will be hugely popular, so people may come out of the woodwork to support it. There may be several standalone capture apps for Mac by April for NAB. And Serious Magic is rumored to be developing an HVX model of the DVRack software, but that's for PC's. And you don't want to be counting on any of this 3rd-party development to be ready for your shoot by summer.

So, based on the known specifications of the camera, the cheapest way to capture is to either license FCP for your laptop, or rent P2 cards, then build in time to transfer the contents of the cards to a USB external drive. If you copy P2 to USB, then you can backup the USB drive on-set to a laptop, raid array, etc. That may not be the easiest solution, but it is probably the cheapest.

I thought you can put FCP on as many machines as you want as long as only one machine is being used at that time and if you are using the machines at the same time problems would only occur if they were connected to a common server.

I thought you can put FCP on as many machines as you want as long as only one machine is being used at that time and if you are using the machines at the same time problems would only occur if they were connected to a common server.

When I asked the Apple rep said that I would have only one machine that FCP studio could be on period. Also as I'll be running two cameras at times to the two laptops so I would have more than one machine in use at a time. So the question remains, is Quick time 7 pro the way to go? Anybody know?

David

I'm assuming you're not planning on buying the P2 cards, in order to save money. Your plan is to capture directly through the laptop to the raid.

That being said, you need to have an application that captures DVCProHD over Firewire. I don't think Quicktime Pro even does that. I don't of any low-cost, standalone application that does that.

That being said, this camera will be hugely popular, so people may come out of the woodwork to support it. There may be several standalone capture apps for Mac by April for NAB. And Serious Magic is rumored to be developing an HVX model of the DVRack software, but that's for PC's. And you don't want to be counting on any of this 3rd-party development to be ready for your shoot by summer.

So, based on the known specifications of the camera, the cheapest way to capture is to either license FCP for your laptop, or rent P2 cards, then build in time to transfer the contents of the cards to a USB external drive. If you copy P2 to USB, then you can backup the USB drive on-set to a laptop, raid array, etc. That may not be the easiest solution, but it is probably the cheapest.

I will have two 4g P-2 cards for mobil shots, but most of the shooting will be done from tripods to the laptops, hence my desire to find a good cheap way to capture from the HVX's. Do you know how much it would cost to licence FCP to the laptops? I did see on the Apple web site that DVCProHD is listed in Quicktime but I couldn't find out if it will work in 1080 24p.

David

I think the apple rep might have thought you were making copies to dispense to others in your "business". I don't think that they expect you to buy copies for every machine you personally own and I do not think this is illegal if that is your concern. If you own all those machines I believe you are allowed to put them on everyone for your own use. Again I think the problems arise when you are on a common server where a single use copy would be recognized, which I do not think is your problem. Since you are getting the machines just give it a try. I have done it on my desktop and laptop up to FCP 4.5 with no problems.

I think the apple rep might have thought you were making copies to dispense to others in your "business". I don't think that they expect you to buy copies for every machine you personally own and I do not think this is illegal if that is your concern. If you own all those machines I believe you are allowed to put them on everyone for your own use. Again I think the problems arise when you are on a common server where a single use copy would be recognized, which I do not think is your problem. Since you are getting the machines just give it a try. I have done it on my desktop and laptop up to FCP 4.5 with no problems.

What they told me is that one copy for one machine, period. Yes, the legal issues are my concern as far as FCP on all three machines. I'n not going to be making copies, I wouldn't know how to do that anyway given all the safeguards they have on the software these days. I'll see if your suggestion is workable.

Edit to add the Apple tech said that Steven Jobs would press charges if I went online with two machines with the same copy of FCP, but if I'm just using the laptops for the cameras and not online I can get away with it.

David

Edit to add the Apple tech said that Steven Jobs would press charges if I went online with two machines with the same copy of FCP, but if I'm just using the laptops for the cameras and not online I can get away with it.

David

I really have to say that that sounds like that Apple tech was being very sarcastic.

I really have to say that that sounds like that Apple tech was being very sarcastic.

Sorry, I made up the Job's quote, can't blame the tech for that.

David

Yeah, I'd say that this is a pretty legally sketchy topic, so I'd recommend taking any discussions on this out of the forum, before the mods close this down.

He's correct... about one copy per machine...

I called Apple a few months ago to see if I could just use an I-book and they told me I need the Power Book and I would have to purchase FCP 5 again...

Yeah, I'd say that this is a pretty legally sketchy topic, so I'd recommend taking any discussions on this out of the forum, before the mods close this down.
He's correct... about one copy per machine...

I called Apple a few months ago to see if I could just use an I-book and they told me I need the Power Book and I would have to purchase FCP 5 again...

As someone making a movie I can understand the desire to keep pirated software under control, but I'm not someone who has money to burn. As someone on a very small budget trying to bring my movie out, it sure is frustrating to have so limited a choice on software and most all of it so expensive that I can't do some of the shots I'd like to do because I had to spend that money on duplicate software that I already bought once. If I was a big corporation I could see Apples or windows point, but I'm just a struggling indie flick maker on my first film trying not to drown in red ink with my limited funds. It's a Hobson's choice. I hope that the new addition of QuickTime pro will solve the problem in a way that leaves me with enough money to finish the film, and not have to make that Hobson's choice.

David

It seems I was wrong. Steve, I'm immediatedley taking it off one of my machines. This from apples site if anyone cares to read:

This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time. The Apple Software may be used to reproduce materials so long as such use is limited to reproduction of non-copyrighted materials, materials in which you own the copyright, or materials you are authorized or legally permitted to reproduce. This License does not allow the Apple Software to exist on more than one computer at a time, and you may not make the Apple Software available over a network where it could be used by multiple computers at the same time. You may make one copy of the Apple Software in machine-readable form for backup purposes only; provided that the backup copy must include all copyright or other proprietary notices contained on the original. Except as and only to the extent expressly permitted in this License or by applicable law, you may not copy, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, modify, or create derivative works of the Apple Software or any part thereof. THE APPLE SOFTWARE IS NOT INTENDED FOR USE IN THE OPERATION OF NUCLEAR FACILITIES, AIRCRAFT NAVIGATION OR COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL SYSTEMS, LIFE SUPPORT MACHINES OR OTHER EQUIPMENT IN WHICH THE FAILURE OF THE APPLE SOFTWARE COULD LEAD TO DEATH, PERSONAL INJURY, OR SEVERE PHYSICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE.

OHMYGOD, YOU'RE NOT SHOOTING IN A NUCLEAR FACILITY ARE YOU????

BTW, the thing with Quicktime Pro is that it will read DVCProHD files, and it will allow you to export in any Quicktime codec you have, including DVCProHD. It just won't allow you to live capture from firewire.

OHMYGOD, YOU'RE NOT SHOOTING IN A NUCLEAR FACILITY ARE YOU????

BTW, the thing with Quicktime Pro is that it will read DVCProHD files, and it will allow you to export in any Quicktime codec you have, including DVCProHD. It just won't allow you to live capture from firewire.

Well that sucks. I guess its a Hobson's choice for me if there is no good option here.

David

Well, there is a sort-of solution, if I understand software distribution practices correctly:

Install FCP on a hard drive, and plug that drive into whatever machine you happen to be using at any given moment.

That way, FCP only "exists" on one machine at a time.

Now, technically, you may continuously install the software on new machines as long as you delete it on the other machines. Many contracts (or interpretations) loosen this to mean "you can install on more than one machine, as long as you never RUN it on more than one machine at a time", since, technically, you could achieve the same effect by deinstalling and reinstalling.

This might work for you if you don't plan to use the laptops simultaneously.

-Barry

Well, there is a sort-of solution, if I understand software distribution practices correctly:

Install FCP on a hard drive, and plug that drive into whatever machine you happen to be using at any given moment.

That way, FCP only "exists" on one machine at a time.

Now, technically, you may continuously install the software on new machines as long as you delete it on the other machines. Many contracts (or interpretations) loosen this to mean "you can install on more than one machine, as long as you never RUN it on more than one machine at a time", since, technically, you could achieve the same effect by deinstalling and reinstalling.

This might work for you if you don't plan to use the laptops simultaneously.

-Barry

I'll have a two camera set up running quite a bit and the feed will be to the two laptops so that dosn't look like a good solution. I'll just have to see if Apple does something positive in this matter, or some other software solution from a third party presents itself. There is always a work-around for these types of problems. And I have some time too.

David

I thought you can put FCP on as many machines as you want as long as only one machine is being used at that time and if you are using the machines at the same time problems would only occur if they were connected to a common server.

that's not what the license says.

it may be installed only on one machine at one time.

it doesn't say you can install multiple times on multiple machines, but use it only on one machine at a time.

Only FCP will work with DVCPRO HD and 24p to capture from the camera according to the chart on the Apple web site.

David

that's not what the license says.

it may be installed only on one machine at one time.

it doesn't say you can install multiple times on multiple machines, but use it only on one machine at a time.

Duh. Try reading through the thread next time. I posted the license.

cheap solution - buy another copy off ebay- jaywalking is illegal but you should still look both ways. A ticket is nothing compared to getting wacked by 3 tons of steel.Kurth

I did a pretty large scale 24P DV shoot (DVX100) a while back and since it made me nervous to put a ton of labor costs onto a $6 cassette I bought a portable DV deck to connect via firewire so I would have a back-up of all the shots. Fortunately, I didn't need the back-ups, but I did learn just how un-"production-friendly" a firewire connection really is - it would frequently fall out or come loose (despite the gaffers tape). The time I lost was the small price I was going to have to pay to make sure I had a shot to edit with -- adding a day because a tape failed was not in the budget. My point is this: trying to tether two laptops to your cameras, while a seemingly cost-effective solution, is likely to cost you a lot of time, on top of what you might spend trying to make it work. If you can figure out a way to swing P2 cards you'll have greater flexibility/mobility with your cameras -- cameras that will start recording with the push of a button, as opposed to making sure FCP is capturing on two separate laptops. I've seen productions where someone comes up with a "half-price" solution, only to have it work half of the time and they wind up spending more than if they had gone with a more traditional approach. Making a movie is hard enough -- a rigged recording solution, while feasible may prove disastrous.

And for something totally different -- I thought I heard that FireStore has a solution for the HVX, of course this solution is not inexpensive, but it may be more cost-effective than P2 cards.

Best of luck -- and thanks for having the integrity not to abuse FCP's software license.

I did a pretty large scale 24P DV shoot (DVX100) a while back and since it made me nervous to put a ton of labor costs onto a $6 cassette I bought a portable DV deck to connect via firewire so I would have a back-up of all the shots. Fortunately, I didn't need the back-ups, but I did learn just how un-"production-friendly" a firewire connection really is - it would frequently fall out or come loose (despite the gaffers tape). The time I lost was the small price I was going to have to pay to make sure I had a shot to edit with -- adding a day because a tape failed was not in the budget. My point is this: trying to tether two laptops to your cameras, while a seemingly cost-effective solution, is likely to cost you a lot of time, on top of what you might spend trying to make it work. If you can figure out a way to swing P2 cards you'll have greater flexibility/mobility with your cameras -- cameras that will start recording with the push of a button, as opposed to making sure FCP is capturing on two separate laptops. I've seen productions where someone comes up with a "half-price" solution, only to have it work half of the time and they wind up spending more than if they had gone with a more traditional approach. Making a movie is hard enough -- a rigged recording solution, while feasible may prove disastrous.

And for something totally different -- I thought I heard that FireStore has a solution for the HVX, of course this solution is not inexpensive, but it may be more cost-effective than P2 cards.



Best of luck -- and thanks for having the integrity not to abuse FCP's software license.

The FireStore and Cineporter are as expensive as the laptops and not as functional, so that doesn’t make much sense to me, as most of this shoot will be from tripods and good quality well secured FireWire can handle 25 feet of length with no drop off of quality according to what I've read about the subject. So I don't really see that attaching the laptops to the cameras should be much of a problem. I'll also be using the laptops as field monitors, so if the firewire falls out I'll know it right away and I can take steps to fix the problem in a very timely fashion. I will have 2 P2 4 gig cards as well for truly mobile shots, where firewire isn't an issue.

As for not abusing the FCP software license, after over $9,500.00 worth of Apples (A G5 Quad and 2 G4's) and the FCP software as well as some other software and computer upgrades, I'm pretty sure Apple is isn't feeling too abused by me. As I said there are always 3rd party solutions and workarounds that are fair to all parties involved, and I have some time anyway. Who knows perhaps apple will upgrade "QuickTime Pro" to a really "Pro" app. That way they can't be accused of ripping people off by offering a "Pro" product that isn't up to "Pro" standards, right? After all Apple can easily incorporate the ability to capture DVCPRO HD from a camera into QuickTime Pro, they already know the codec for it.

(Memo to Steve Jobs: Hey Steve, do the right thing and help us small time Indie flick guys out and really up grade QT Pro so it will capture DVCPRO HD. After all it will funnel all that film shot in QT Pro into your computers and software, and its win-win baby, and you win both times to our one! ;) Your new pal, David M Payne.)

David ;)

Hi David,

I was just sharing my experience with 4-pin firewire in a production environment to say that it's rather touchy. Unfortunately, someone hasn't devised a type of firewire connector that is as robust as BNC or XLR.

As for QuickTime Pro, I did notice under the recording preferences you can choose "Device Native" under the quality option -- this may only go as far as the DV codec, I didn't find a definitive answer elsewhere online in my brief search.

I know it goes without saying, but thoroughly test your workflow before you sink too much money in any one direction. Also realize that if it takes an extra 5 minutes every time you need to relocate the camera(s) to accommodate moving your laptop stations, you're easily loosing an hour or more a day, after 10 days of shooting, you've lost more than a day. You're probably not in a situation where you have to pay your crew over-time, but that kind of productivity loss will affect morale.

-David

Hi David,

I was just sharing my experience with 4-pin firewire in a production environment to say that it's rather touchy. Unfortunately, someone hasn't devised a type of firewire connector that is as robust as BNC or XLR.

As for QuickTime Pro, I did notice under the recording preferences you can choose "Device Native" under the quality option -- this may only go as far as the DV codec, I didn't find a definitive answer elsewhere online in my brief search.

I know it goes without saying, but thoroughly test your workflow before you sink too much money in any one direction. Also realize that if it takes an extra 5 minutes every time you need to relocate the camera(s) to accommodate moving your laptop stations, you're easily loosing an hour or more a day, after 10 days of shooting, you've lost more than a day. You're probably not in a situation where you have to pay your crew over-time, but that kind of productivity loss will affect morale.

-David

With pay and points and a flexible schedule I think that the cast and crew that take this film project on will be able to get behind it and do a good job. I have no inexpensive perfect choices in this venture, but I think the equipment I'll be using and the way I see making this film will work fine for a first effort. The story is original and has good potential for doing at least two things a good movie should do, tell a good tale leaving the audience entertained; and fire their imagination and perhaps give them a little something to think about too. What I find so interesting about the cameras and computer advances is the unique way that it allows one to tell their tales in HD, which is easily uprezed for film. Its also much more interesting that just writing is right now. I have other tales as good or better than this one that suitable for filming IMHO, but with "Holy War" I just want to get in some practical experience and see if I have what I think I do as far as this film is concerned. I've been a film fan since at least "Shane" and probably longer, and have taken a few film classes over the years. I know It's a crapshoot to try and break into films, and I'm comfortable with my chances. I have a good story, good equipment and enough cash to hire a crew. The story is good enough that a competent cast of unknowns could tell it well. If I can do my part and my cast and crew can do their part, I think we'll make a pretty good movie.

David