Footage recorded directly to one of these hard drive DTE devices is still going through the exact same HDV compression as if it were going to tape, correct?

that's correct it still goes through the encoder

Im thinking of buy one of these DR-HD100 DTE to bybass the 3,000+ dollars it is to get the BRU-DECK. Will this record the full specturm of what the JVC records in regards to 720 24p/25p/30p with any apparent issues.

WORKFLOW

JVC HDV_720 24p > DTE HDV_720 24p > A-PRO1.5 HDV_720 24p > HD_WM9& SD_DVD
JVC HDV_720 25p > DTE HDV_720 25p > A-PRO1.5 HDV_720 25p > HD_WM9& SD_DVD
JVC HDV_720 30p > DTE HDV_720 30p > A-PRO1.5 HDV_720 30p > HD_WM9& SD_DVD

Does anyone see a problem in here.......?

The Firestore, as it stands right now, only records .m2ts to it's disc. So if your NLE can deal with the m2t (of whatever format), then you'll be fine.

Right now Apple/FCP users are out of luck with the Firestore, but I suspect this is because they're needing to sync their firmware release with the new version of FCP coming.

At lease I hope to the heavens. Us FCP people are dealing with a lot of pent up expectations these days!

At lease I hope to the heavens. Us FCP people are dealing with a lot of pent up expectations these days!
While us, Avid-on-a-Mac people don't have to worry...because Avid is not even promising ANYTHING (to do with HDV support) until the summer. There you go...you lucky buggers...:-)

Heh. Right.

I forgot to mention, Focus has made an official statement about supporting 24P HDV, and HDV inside FCP's Quicktime wrapper. They are saying about April, if I remember right.

Right around the NAB/FCP rapture, I suppose.

Hi Nate,

Do you know if cineform or pp supports editing .m2t. If not what system does?

Cheers Greg C

PPro 2.0 will support the file format, but it is really slow and really not that great to edit .m2t files in there native format due to the GOP. Cineform has an Appliction called HD Link that will convert the .m2t file into the Cineform Avi so you can edit it with out having to render. This is much faster then to edit the .m2t file. I do not have PPro 2.0 but that is what I hear and Most people on this forum I bet would advise you not to edit the .m2t file. I am not sure but I think you might be able to have the Firestore record in the cineform codec. If not maybe the poweres that be at Cineform can think that one over.

Thanks Mat,

I think your right. I'm sure I've read that the JVC version of the firestore can store in a number of intermediate codecs, but I can't remember if Cineform is one of them. I need to nail this as my hdd is arriving, after some delay, next week. I'm goig to have a hunt around now see what I can dig up. I'll come back with anything concrete.

Greg C

Just found that bit of blurb on the jvc pro site under dr hd100 (surprise surpise). I was wrong. Only sd is supported at the moment with various inermediates. As Nate said, only .m2t for now with Hdv. Although, the site does state that ther will be an easy 'in the field' firmware upgrade as and when it becomes available. For now I guess I'll have to use the hd link and convert to cineform that way. I'm going be storing all my files on external drives anyway until my projects shot So they can all stay there as .m2ts until I'm ready to edit I guess unless anyone can see a problem with that?


Cheers for now Greg C

I'm sure I've read that the JVC version of the firestore can store in a number of intermediate codecs, but I can't remember if Cineform is one of them.

The Firestore, as it exists today, is never going to be a device that will transcode codecs.

When Focus says things like that, they are talking about encapsulating the MPEG stream into different containers. An m2t stream is one kind, the Quicktime file FCP writes when ingesting HDV natively would be another. Both keep the data in MPEG2 format, there is no re-encoding.

Cineform would be a re-encode, as would DVCPRO HD. The next step for devices like that is to get enough processing power eventually to take in MPEG2 via the firewire/HDV connection, and then re-encode in real time to a more useful codec.

Focus has promised me the first HD-100 to review and they say it should be April. They say it will have 720p30 and 720p24 support with FCP. That may be a hint that Apple plans its next HDV update by NAB.

The Firestore, as it exists today, is never going to be a device that will transcode codecs.

When Focus says things like that, they are talking about encapsulating the MPEG stream into different containers. An m2t stream is one kind, the Quicktime file FCP writes when ingesting HDV natively would be another. Both keep the data in MPEG2 format, there is no re-encoding.

Cineform would be a re-encode, as would DVCPRO HD. The next step for devices like that is to get enough processing power eventually to take in MPEG2 via the firewire/HDV connection, and then re-encode in real time to a more useful codec.

Hi Nate,

So what is the exact meaning of direct to edit then Nate? It says on the jvc site that in SD they can save with a number of different extensions but they do not yet support Hd. I understood this to mean that the footage coulld be recorded to dr hd100 in a codec of choice provided it is supported by the Hardware/software but it sounds like I'm mistaken. Have you had any experience with one of these yet? If so could you enlighten me on its capabilities.

Cheers Greg C

So what is the exact meaning of direct to edit then Nate? It says on the jvc site that in SD they can save with a number of different extensions but they do not yet support Hd. I understood this to mean that the footage coulld be recorded to dr hd100 in a codec of choice provided it is supported by the Hardware/software but it sounds like I'm mistaken.

You understand things correctly for the most part. It's just that when they say "codec of your choice", they mean "codec of your choice that our little box has the horsepower to convert to in real-time"...which rules out a lot of possibilities.

Some codec conversions would be what most editors call a transcode...meaning say, MPEG-2 to DVCPRO HD. Those are completely different and disparate codecs. Converting between the two is barely real-time even on my dual processor G5.

Then you could have what you call a "conversion", which I would NOT use the word "transcode" for. This would be say, taking a DV stream off a camera, putting the stream into an AVI file (which the FS can do)...and then converting to a Quicktime file. That operation uses the same core codec (the DV codec). That's the sort of thing the Firestore does...take your DV stream and put it in all sorts of "wrappers", hopefully one your NLE uses natively. That's what Focus calls "codec of your choice", which for you has been slightly misleading.

Thanks Nate,

I appreciate that. Just one more quick question. Do you see any problem with me downloading the .m2ts after each days shoot and storing on an external drive and leaving them there until I'm ready to edit for example with Cineform's Aspect and pp. If theres is no problem do you have any idea how long it might take to do this for say 1 hour of footage. (to convert)

All the best Greg C

To be honest, I know nothing about the Cineform workflow as it relates to m2ts, so I can't answer anything really. Sowwy.

I unfortunately though am all too aware of the sad state of FCP and the HD100 right now!

Thanks anaway Nate. Apparently there's an fcp solution on its way so don't dispair. Besides half the fun is wiating like a condemned at the mercy of big corporations (not). I 'm with you mate. Its frustrating, I guess we're supposed to channel the frustration into something creative trouble is thats not always as easy as it sound. Hang in there mate.

Regards Greg

Thanks Nate,

I appreciate that. Just one more quick question. Do you see any problem with me downloading the .m2ts after each days shoot and storing on an external drive and leaving them there until I'm ready to edit for example with Cineform's Aspect and pp. If theres is no problem do you have any idea how long it might take to do this for say 1 hour of footage. (to convert)

I would imagine that you can convert the m2t files from the firestore the same way you would if you had captured them with Lumiere HD or HDVxDV. I'm sure that you could use Lumiere HD or HDVxDV to remove the pulldown frames.

If anyone has a small m2t file created by the firestore, I'd love to check it out and see how well it converts.

Sorry Tim I had every intention of doing that for you but as usual there has been a delay from jvc here in england with regard to th dr hd100. I'm thinking I'm gonna have to go with the fs4 pro as I only have a week or so till I shoot. Once Ive got some of that downloaded i'll see if I can get a chunk to you. I'm still looking at 3 weeks minimum though sorry for the delay.

Greg

I would imagine that you can convert the m2t files from the firestore the same way you would if you had captured them with Lumiere HD or HDVxDV. I'm sure that you could use Lumiere HD or HDVxDV to remove the pulldown frames.

If anyone has a small m2t file created by the firestore, I'd love to check it out and see how well it converts.


Sorry Tim,

You seem to have some possible misgivings about the Firesore. You mentioned before about the repeat flags and, above, the pulldown frames. If you get a momemnt would you be able to explain to me what your concerns are with these two things. I'm going to the video forum at Earl's Court tomorrow and the uk rep for Focus Enhancements will be there I just want to make sure I'm armed with the right questions before I purchase.

Thanks again Mate Greg C

Does anyone actually have the JVC models yet? I've been waiting for any reputable retailer to have them in stock. I know I can probably buy the fs-4 pro, but I'm willing to spend the extra money on a more integrated product.

Well, this thread sure took off since last I was here. Good info, thanks guys.

I'm actually not sure that the units are released yet, let alone pricing. A search is turning up nothing reliable from any English-speaking site.

Well, this thread sure took off since last I was here. Good info, thanks guys.

I'm actually not sure that the units are released yet, let alone pricing. A search is turning up nothing reliable from any English-speaking site.

I can't imagine that they are. Focus intent was to release it sometime this spring I thought and I kind of doubt that they'd be ahead of schedule with it.
Until they have a working pre-production model that demuxes m2t files and delivers native QT 24p (and FCP follows through on there end) it's just a waiting game.
But for some reason I have this sense of confidence that Apple and they will come through before too long.
I'm an optimist.

I spoke to jvc uk yesterday. They are still waiting on field tests being done in Italy and Germany. As soon as jvc are happy they can put there name on it they are going to ship almost straight away. That's what I was told anyway. May be too late for me though. Might have to go for firestore instead. On the flip side fs4hdv pro 80gig is same price as dr hd100 40 gig so it aint all bad.

Cheers Greg C

I spoke to jvc uk yesterday. They are still waiting on field tests being done in Italy and Germany. As soon as jvc are happy they can put there name on it they are going to ship almost straight away. That's what I was told anyway. May be too late for me though. Might have to go for firestore instead. On the flip side fs4hdv pro 80gig is same price as dr hd100 40 gig so it aint all bad.

Cheers Greg C

That's good news Greg, I was really hoping to start the next projects on HDD.
I hope it works out for you...keep us posted.

Sorry Tim, You seem to have some possible misgivings about the Firesore. You mentioned before about the repeat flags and, above, the pulldown frames.

I think Nates answer was correct. The DV or HDV data stream is input via 1394 to the FireStore/JVC processor. Then, without opening either compressed or PCM data, it writes the data out WITHIN a chosen file structure.

These file structures are now independent of the 1394 format. They are READY for use by whatever NLE the product supports.

As Nate said -- these structures are "wrappers" for the DV or HDV data.

Tim's concern may lie with "what kind of data the wrappers can hold." Part of a wrapper is a description of the data. If the wrapper isn't able to store the information about HOW JVC and Canon store the 24fps HDV data -- in the way the NLE expects -- the NLE won't know what the data are.

<<< Specifically, does QT store MPEG-2 data that has Repeat Flags? I expect it does. >>>

And therein lies the rub. How do you store information that is required by an NLE in the WAY the NLE requires if that NLE has yet to define the WAY it will support the video format?

Given Apple and Avid and Adobe's fight for NLE market share -- any or all -- may be relunctant to disclose anything until their support is on the market (or at least in Beta). I suspect this is the real reason why Focus is delaying to April.

Lastly, when Focus talks of "conversion" I agree that this means no more than reading the data from one wrapper and writing it out under another wrapper.

Thanks Steve,

I'm gonna print that little sucker off and take it with me tomorrow. However, am I right in thinking that as long as I have the .m2t which I believe is in essence the native transport stream then I can just store those on a hard drive and convert at a later date to whatever intermediate I want or can handle the conversion. Hope I'm understanding this correctly?

Regards Greg C

<<< Specifically, does QT store MPEG-2 data that has Repeat Flags? I expect it does. >>>

And therein lies the rub. How do you store information that is required by an NLE in the WAY the NLE requires if that NLE has yet to define the WAY it will support the video format?

with fcp that is true but we know adobe can handle through cineform.

Additionaly, are there still repeat flags to contend with in .m2t's?

Additionaly, are there still repeat flags to contend with in .m2t's?

Yes. If you shoot 720P24 and capture with any sort of MPEG transport stream software you will have a 720P60 file (24P with 2:3 pulldown repeat frames.)

Software like HDVxDV will remove the flags on a Mac and create a 720P24 quicktime file in a new codec. Lumiere HD will remove the repeat flags during the demux process. I'm not sure how the workflows work on Windows.

I'd simply like to know if the m2t files written to the FS-4 are 720P60, no matter what shooting frame rate is selected in the camera.

I'd simply like to know if the m2t files written to the FS-4 are 720P60, no matter what shooting frame rate is selected in the camera.

Since the RFs are MPEG2 flags they will always be in the data that are untouched by Focus.

What's important is that the QT and AVI file descriptors are able to, and do, corrrectly indicate to the NLE what the data stream is. I have no doubt that QT can store such data or that Focus knows how to set the bits correctly.

Of course, if Apple's HDV implementation correctly handled MPEG2 it would correctly interpret the TS stream no matter what the QT header indicated.

Every HDTV can correctly handle 24p, 30p, and 60p based upon the RFs.

So I think we are back to Apple, Avid, and Adobe.