First off, if this has been discussed before..I'm sorry! But I cannot find the threads.

I am an event videographer currently using SonyPD150 cameras. I have bought an HD100 to expand my knowledge and services.

My initial experiences with the camera were good and for doco and film making I think it is a great camera.

However I am not sure I am brave enough to use this camera in HDV mode for, say a wedding. (DV mode no probs) The tolerances for unexpected movement in the shot seem to be just too tight! Objects moving accross screen in the immediate background etc. A wedding can be a hectic environment and the 'unexpected' has to be 'expected'

I do not over use slowmotion but it does have its place and I cannot get good HDV slomo on this cam. You filmmakers out there MUST use slomo at some point. What settings do you use?

Shooting a 'once in a lifetime' event such as a wedding is difficult enough without having all the extra disciplines of progressive to worry about!

I have also had dropout problems which is worrying for live events. I think the FS-4 would have to be an essential addition if the 'must get' shots are to be guaranteed dropout free. Does the footage gathered on the firestore differ in look in any way to that gathered on tape?

Can anyone here let me know if they have used this camera in a 'live' situation and what experiences they have had. Are they happy with the results,(is the client happy!?) If so could they share their settings or better still post some footage?

Cheers

Tony Goodman

I don't own JVC HD100. I can't answer your question but weddings are low light events and SSE should be a problem with this camera.

Also, my company wants to upgrade to HDV. We do mainly weddings. You said JVC with DV mode works fine for you. Compare to PD150 how good is it in low light? Some weddings we have to use 9db on our PD170.

I felt the same way a few months ago. I moved recently from a PD-150 experience into the JVC HD100 progressive world. I'm still in the learning curve sort of speaking since this camera is not just a camera to turn in the ON position and start shooting.
This camera was ideal tool for me to take the step from DV to HDV.
Because the camera can also work in DV mode (=ideal if you are not familiar with the camera). And in HDV there are settings like smoothing ON, which helps you to take the step to shoot in HDV progressive while not 100% respecting the 'progressive rules'. If you move the camera is smears out the fast images or objects a bit without seeing the foreground strobing too much.

Progressive is also the format to come along with all these LCD/Plasma screens. That was another reason for me to move to progressive.
I shoot much more static shots now, and the end-result looks also more filmic due to this alone. If you need to pan, follow a subject or person passing by.
And for static scenes pan slooowly if you need to.
It's a learning curve, but the results are so stunning with this camera, that I shoot any event now in HDV and also edit in HDV. Depending on the clients needs, I export the finished video in WMV-HD or to SD or DVD. And I keep the edited HDV in case the customer later on wants HD resolution afterall.
I'm sure other guys on the forum have much more experience then me to share.

Bora, I do own a camera and the SSE is no problem as long as you don't go into high gain. Please check it out at a JVC dealer before mentioning the SSE as a 'problem'.
And yes the PD150/PD170 are better in low light. Higher resolution on a 1/3" inch chip just needs more light. I never use gain on any of my camera's higher then 3 db. The PD-150 also becomes grainy in high gain like any camera.
For my 0.05 Euro cents, on events I always carry a dimmable camera light.

I don't own JVC HD100. I can't answer your question but weddings are low light events and SSE should be a problem with this camera.

Also, my company wants to upgrade to HDV. We do mainly weddings. You said JVC with DV mode works fine for you. Compare to PD150 how good is it in low light? Some weddings we have to use 9db on our PD170.

The SSE is not a problem on weddings, I shot 2 weddings already with my HD101 and the result was better than when I used my PD150. It is not the most light sensible camera, but is better than a Z1 and SSE is not an issue you should concern about. Split screen is a reality, but you can hardly see it under extreme situations, so extreme that your footage would be trash anyway.

Stop undervaluing this camera just because first units had a visible split screen, have you ever tried one under low light situations and found a SSE? I'm sorry Bora, but if you don't have experience with the HD100 you shouldn't especulate based on what you've read. Well, I own one and I've been using for live events, documentarys, sports and brodcasting stuff, never had problems with split screen.Try searching this forum for late complains about SSE... you won't find. This is an excelente camera. If your problem is light forget HDV, these cameras are less sensible than some DV cameras.

Tony, I have no experience with HDV on weddings. I shoot in 16:9 DV 50i mode because I don't have yet a capable PC for editing HDV. I use interlaced because it is better for slowmotion, however progressive is better for low light.

Diogo, you should try cineform. I downloaded the trial version and it is great for editing HDV (www.cineform.com). I used it with my P4 3.2 system. I can do realtime color correction. I downloaded some Z1U and HD100 footage over internet and converted to cineform avi. I couldn't get good slow motion from JVC but I guess It was shot 24p 48 shutter and I don't know If 30p with 60 shutter will be better for slow motion. Any idea ? We do lots of slow motion for preparation section.

Stop undervaluing this camera just because first units had a visible split screen, have you ever tried one under low light situations and found a SSE?

By the time, I wasn't undervaluing anything. It was my assumption. I can't rent the camera or buy to test it. And thanks for the information. So now I know there is no SSE problem.

Some of our clients don't like on camera lights so we have to shoot in high gain (sometimes even 12db

Have you tried 480p60 for the slomo and uprezzing? The softness of the uprez is better than the alternative.

If your company wants to upgrade to HDV and progressive is good for you, than this is the camera. About the SSE, it is always good to check the camera you're purchasing. It is a characteristic and not a defect, but some units may be not so well calibrated and the split can be more visible. Don't forget to let it turned on for at least 5 minutes before shooting... and if everything is ok believe me, SSE won't be a problem.

Thanks for the advice about cineform, but the problem is with my hardware. I will purchase a AMD dual core next month, my AMD Athlon 2600XP+ can't handle HDV nor the Adobe Premiére Pro 2.0...

By the way, you should say to your clients that on camera light is better than a grainy image. They don't ask the photographer not to use flash, do they? I never shot a wedding without the light, I don't even ask for their permission.

By the way, you should say to your clients that on camera light is better than a grainy image. They don't ask the photographer not to use flash, do they? I never shot a wedding without the light, I don't even ask for their permission.

I use a dimmable light to add light upto the level were I need it. I never had complains about using light in 15 years. The customer knows I want to make the best footage for them. They have no message in dark and grainy stuff afterwards.

QUOTE Marc Colemont. I use a dimmable light to add light upto the level were I need it. I never had complains about using light in 15 years. The customer knows I want to make the best footage for them. They have no message in dark and grainy stuff afterwards.[/QUOTE]


At last, some posts on event lighting I can relate to!. I cannot believe any bride would rather watch dark grainy images of the biggest day of her life for the rest of her life than having one or two extra lights amongst all the other lights around (daylight, lightbulbs, flashbulbs (and not just from the official photog but from countless friends and relatives) I have never met one.

As long as you soften the light with a diffusion filter or even a soft box then how can this be a problem. I have also been looking at dimmable lights, the IDX X3 LED is really interesting me at the moment. I think the problem has arisen by some videographers blasting the bride with too big a light, no softeneing and being too intrusive with it. There is a series on TV in England at the moment called Wedding Stories (great viewing) One recent episode, which is filmed by the BBC showed a couple getting into a limo after the event. There was a private videographer in the limo with a MASSIVE cam light blasting back at the BBC crew, it made the limo look like Blackpool Illuminations! (Las Vegas in US)

With regards to SSE lets hope this issue has now died a natural death. Yes I had SSE problems with my unit but it went back to JVC and, yes, it CAN be fixed, mine has.

Marc, it is really encouraging to hear that this camera can be used in HDV progressive mode for weddings, I have had these images in my head of what a wedding could look like in HDV and really want to do it! I might be brave enough to try it now. One other point, how much of an issue is dropout for you? Do you use a firestore yet?

Edwin, I will experiment with your suggestion for 480/60p (576/50p for here in the UK). I have always been a bit dubious about using DV and HDV on the same project but I suppose a slowmotion sequence is the one time you could get away with it. It is usually a good idea to put a bit of smooth blur on the clip anyway in post. The one time I always use slomo is for the confetti throw. That would look like c--p in 24/25/30p! And I think the motion smoothing function of the camera is not something I would ever use, it just does not work for me, you end up with judder AND smear!!!

Cheers

Tony

I ordered this cool-lux with a soft box from BH: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=403163&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation
Does anyone had experience with it?
I read somewhere in this forum that the IDX led light has a strange green tone... I don't know how reliable that source is, but the only advantage I find in it is the low power consumption.

Tony, I wouldn't use different formats on the same project. But if you really want to try it I advize you to use different tapes.

Tony, no I don't have a Firestore yet. It's on my list.
I use HDV-rack were I can. Great tool.
The videolight I use is from Bebob in Germany:
http://www.bebob.de/international/lux_eng.html
You can even screw it on a microphone stand or hold it in your hand.

I had a friend bring in an old wedding tape and she asked me to fix it because it was 'too dark'. Apparently the guests complained about the video light and the camera man relented and turned it off. These guest were not the paying clients!

I shoot corporated events, and much of this is poor lighting for power-point presentations. Usually I'm too far away, in the back of the room, where a camer light would be useless. In my canon XL1s I can get a decent picture at 6db with very little noise, and it's acceptable. How does the picture of the HD100 hold up in the camera if I have to crank up the gain?

Pete

I'm going to quit posting on this board (I get the message folks). I'm justing going to rent these cams and judge all this for myself. No harm done (I'm not pointing fingers). It just ain't working here.

Pete

I'm going to quit posting on this board (I get the message folks). I'm justing going to rent these cams and judge all this for myself. No harm done (I'm not pointing fingers). It just ain't working here.

Pete

Peter,

Please don't leave because it took longer than 3 hours to get a response to your question on a Tuesday morning! The benefit of dvinfo is that most of us are working professionals, the downside is that you usually only hear from us on lunch breaks, evenings and weekends.

To answer your question "How does the picture of the HD100 hold up in the camera if I have to crank up the gain?" :

Video noise/picture "quality" in any camera is hard to quantify because it is up to subjective opinion. If you compare the current batch of 1/3" HD cameras (as Adam Wilt, Barry Green and company did) you will find that it may comparatively has a little more noise than the Canon.
Obviously every stepped increase in gain will accentuate the noise.
However, the HD100 has some professional gamma manipulation features that allow it to become very sensitive without adding gain & noise.
For example, you can manually increase the gamma response to create a low-light setting on 0dB gain that will be the equivalent of a DVX100 in +12dB (according to my own tests.) Cranking up the gamma response does add noise, but it doesn't look like random "video gain noise." I would liken it to film grain - which I find quite appealing.

So it becomes an apples and oranges comparison if you don't take gamma response into consideration. I think you are wise to borrow some cameras and test these things for yourself. Play with the standard gamma response and see what happens in a dark room. You may be pleasantly surprised!

[QUOTE=Peter Ferling]I'm going to quit posting on this board (I get the message folks). I'm justing going to rent these cams and judge all this for myself. No harm done (I'm not pointing fingers). It just ain't working here.

Pete

I composed this post earlier today but my computer crashed and I could not bring myself to write it out again straight away, but I know what you mean.

Anyway to give yo my honest if not expert opinion about the Hd100. I do not think the low light problem is nearly as bad as people make out. I have done my own amateur tests in my studio, just pointing the camera at my desk and monitors in what I would consider to be the very poor light, I would certainly have put my light on well before it got to this stage.

I observed the following, comparison between the DV and HDV modes of the HD100. The low light perfoprmance of the PD150 is better than the DV pic of the HD100. But I still prefer the overall HD picture to both of them.

The light source was almost no daylight and reflected light from an 11w fluorescent desklamp pointed directly at the wall about four feet away from the shot. It was pretty dark!

Iris was OPEN and shutter OFF.

Shot HDV-HD24p and DV-50i at no gain, 6db and 12db. I would never use more than 12 db at an event. In fact if I think ANY gain is neccessary I light up.

The DV signal was brighter but only marginally so to my eyes, and the better resolution and colour representation of the HD signal more than compensated. I much preferred the HD footage.

I really do not see low light as a problem with this camera, I am more worried about the disciplines of progressive, but that is more about my inexperience than any deficiency of the camera. I am gradually starting to get decent footage from it and following Marc's comments I feel I might be brave enough to do a wedding in HDV soon.

As for your corporate work if you get to know the camera before using it live, I think you will be really pleased with it, especially if the speaker is projected onto a large screen, that is when HDV REALLY does shine! When I bought my camera the dealer projected an image onto an 10ft screen and it was mind boggling how clean it was!

Can we finally NAIL one point for good. The SSE problem is no longer a problem! Mine had it and JVC fixed it. And I believe the new models do not have it in the first place.

Hope this helpful

Cheers

Tony

Steer clear of using the hd100 for wedding or live event videography.
The cam has bit me in the arse with some of my corporate work.
The camera's low light performance still leaves something to be desired, not to mention the SSE problem that may occur when shooting in a run and gun scenario where you won't be able to light each scene adequately. If you are a dedicated cinematographer shooting under controlled circumstances, then the cam will work great for you. Pro HD or HDV as a format is great and even a wedding vids will benefit from it's undeniable clarity. I don't care what anyone says, each and every unit out there still has the SSE problem. Adjust the knee-strech the blacks whatever. The SSE is still an intermittent issue no matter what you do-you must be able to control your lighting environment in a regimental manner in order to reap the full benefits of what this camera can deliver. Great if your a film maker-not so great for eng or event videography.

The camera's low light performance still leaves something to be desired,

In the 4 camera test I was involved with, all of the cameras behaved similarly in low-light. All had slightly different noise response in the blacks, but it was clear not one camera had a huge advantage over another.

Or, put another way, all the 1/3rd inch HD cameras leave a lot to be desired in low light (which is the way I'd put it).

I don't care what anyone says, each and every unit out there still has the SSE problem.

The unkind way to take that would be "Well, I find it hard to believe you've tested every camera in service"

The kind way would be to interpret as "I don't care what anybody says, each and every unit is built the same way and potentially susceptible to the problem".

Albert, we're interested in your experience in the camera and if you've had problems. What we can't have is people shouting down users like me who have the camera, have experienced the issue, and say "eh. Not a show stopper".

It's true that one can INVOKE the SSE problem probably in every camera, however, I found that one really has to work on it to get it. At least with the more recent cameras.

In other words, it's not any longer a problem in a day-to-day shooting.

Albert, we're interested in your experience in the camera and if you've had problems. What we can't have is people shouting down users like me who have the camera, have experienced the issue, and say "eh. Not a show stopper".

Exactly, I'm sick of people saying this isn't a capable camera because of the SSE. That's not true, I own one, I've been using it under all kinds of situations and NEVER had problems with SSE. I'm a professional like most users on this forum, I would never use a camera I couldn't trust. If the split screen could damage my footage I wouldn't use this camera under any circunstances.

Or, put another way, all the 1/3rd inch HD cameras leave a lot to be desired in low light (which is the way I'd put it).
Not only the 1/3rd inch cameras but also the 2/3rds inch HD cameras aren't as sensible as 2/3rds DV cameras. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the cinealta you tested had the iris set to the same f-stop as the HD100 under the same light.

Camera - f-stop - Effective ISO rating
HDW-F900/3 CineAlta - Just under 5.6 - Just under 320
HDC27F Varicam - Just under 4 - Just under160
Canon XL H1 - 4 + 1/3 stop - 200
JVC GY-HD100 - Just under 5.6 - Just under 320
Pana AG-HVX200 - 5.6 - 320
Sony HVR-Z1 - 4 - 160

Tony and Albert, I'm signing back on to thank you for answering.

I hear you Tony, I don't go higher than 3db, I try to keep it at 0 and crank the iris. If the stage is lit, I'm good. Many times I don't find out until the lights go dim, and a few times some uniformed worker just drops them all!

Albert, your experience doesn't sound too encouraging. I emagine that since it's 4 times the data, but the physical size of the CCD's and lens' are the same as with DV cameras, you have more detail but less light. Less light because the actual size of the pixels are smaller?

I don't have the luxury of lighting every situation as if it were a film shoot. I could emagine getting by with some noise, but wouldn't that be also magnified because it's HD?

Obviously when I head over to the vendor, we're gonna have to dim the lights. I have a rental source for the HVX and maybe the Canon H1 (still waiting for them to come in). It'll be a few hours drive to get a hold of an HD100.

I'm not gonna pit these cam's against any charts. I'm just going to see how fast and convenient these are in my real world terms. That is, can I be up and shooting on a tripod in 15-minutes? Can I unhook, shoulder mount and walk outside or into another room where setup changes on the fly. I just don't have the luxury of a 2 hour setup and crew -but have to stand and deliver (something I believe you'd find at your wedding shoots as well).

Ah, I'm rambling, it's midnight, I have two flash files, a photo-shoot and an edit session to do tommorrow...

Thanks for the input.

That is, can I be up and shooting on a tripod in 15-minutes? Can I unhook, shoulder mount and walk outside or into another room where setup changes on the fly. I just don't have the luxury of a 2 hour setup and crew -but have to stand and deliver (something I believe you'd find at your wedding shoots as well).


Peter

I do not know about the other cameras you are testing but the HD100 has an SD card which can store settings for upto three situations. There are other ways too, you get about six differents presets which can be easily accessed. The SD card can also be used in another HD100.

I have a list of all the venues I have shot and have a short description of each of the rooms I will be shooting in (ceremony, reception,) what type and amount of light available etc. If I have to go to a new venue I visit beforehand, trying to go at the same time of day as the event to get a idea of where the light is coming from and what type it is.

Cheers

Tony


"Failing to prepare, is preparing to fail"

I do not know about the other cameras you are testing but the HD100 has an SD card which can store settings for upto three situations.

4 scene files on SD plus 2 on the camera.

I managed three on the XL1s' internal memory. One for lights up, another for down, and a third for outside. These would get me close enough and I'd do a fine adjust on the iris (including a quick push of the ND filter for a walk outside), all within a fingers reach and without losing focus (the quick focus button also helped in a quick fix while trying to get other settings).

I see, judging by online images, that essential controls on the HD100 is relatively close, just gotta see how it feels when I'm moving about. Speaking of which, I found the XL1's to be very akward in carrying. I got a three point shoulder rig from Varizoom, but I don't want to repeat that again with the H1, which I believe is now even heavier on the front end vs. the XL1. If the HD100 gives me the crisp progressive images I need for trade shows and corporate training, and I'm not all thumbs with it, then I'm sold.

4 scene files on SD plus 2 on the camera.

Diogo

I stand corrected...but I did get the 'Six in total' correct!!

Tony