Once and for all can someone say/explain if/how/why/why not there is a slow-mo 48 fps mode/60 frame per second mode IN FULL RES. I've heard that doing slow mo only will work when one shoots at DV resolution and not HDV, is this true? Is there anyway with the HD100 to acheive full res true slow-motion? Please someone settle this debate once and for all!

Bruce, stop yelling, it hurts my ears.

The answer to your question is all over this board Bruce.
No, no way to do 60p (for slow motion) to tape unless you use SD... OR you capture live out of component to a system / card, and that route will cost you additional $$$$$.




I'm sorry guys... I know, it's like answering the "why kid" who never hears the answer because he is too busy thinking about another "Why".

The funny part is, I've never heard any confusion on the matter on this board. Somebody asks the question, and one of the same 4 people answer it. Over and over :-)

Usually it's Tim. He has unending patience for that stuff it seems!

The funny part is, I've never heard any confusion on the matter on this board. Somebody asks the question, and one of the same 4 people answer it. Over and over :-)


Yeah, so is the lens any good and can I shoot a movie with SSE?

The lens is fine for the price of the camera. What do you want? A 30K lens on a 5K camera? Also, enough of the SSE, there has been way too much made of this. I don't see any SSE under extreme conditions. Then again, I'm using a later production run and I let it warm up for a few minutes.

Yeah, so is the lens any good and can I shoot a movie with SSE?

Heh.

Tim, Jim was making a bad joke. We'll not be starting a lens discussion here.


Pretty please ? :-)

Heh.

Tim, Jim was making a bad joke. We'll not be starting a lens discussion here.


Pretty please ? :-)


Well I didn't think it was that bad of a joke <g>. Tim obviously hasn't followed any of my thoughts on the lens or SSE etc. He's just got to get up to speed on the players.

Ah, yes. It's all making sense now. I just needed to read some past threads. :)

Maybe because we are sick of people talking about SSE and how it can demage your footage. That was a good joke :)

So what about the lens? I also heard something about SSE?

......... ;)

Maybe because we are sick of people talking about SSE and how it can demage your footage. That was a good joke :)


For the record I've been wanting to do a decent "Jim's first impressions of the HD100" thread. Once I got through the Winter Games project I though I was free for three months to work on this pilot and new screenplaybut they keep pulling me back.
Actually I really can't complain because the last minute Olympic stuff forced the decision on the JVC and paid for the decision.
So I'm going to sit down and do a first impressions piece that comes from the perspective of a production company typically shooting primarily 16mm, XL2/Mini 35 combos.
I really want a bit more set experience to be balanced and we're doing a series of nicely lit intereior moves this week for a promo that should give me that.
But I'll give you a little teaser - I really love this camera.
I'm really interested in my new DPs impressions...he just finished shooting MTVs new High School Stories on the DVX and primarily works with his Aaton.
He was pushing me to go Varicam, but I just think that this was too good a deal and things are moving too quickly to go that route right now.

Once and for all can someone say/explain if/how/why/why not there is a slow-mo 48 fps mode/60 frame per second mode IN FULL RES. I've heard that doing slow mo only will work when one shoots at DV resolution and not HDV, is this true? Is there anyway with the HD100 to acheive full res true slow-motion? Please someone settle this debate once and for all!

The 480p60 mode is not DV(AVI) it is HDV (MPEG2) and will scale to 1280x720 very nicely. So, for me, the answer is yes (so far). The results of scaling 480p60 to 1280x720 have been very good. Try for yourself.

The 480p60 mode is not DV(AVI) it is HDV (MPEG2) and will scale to 1280x720 very nicely. So, for me, the answer is yes (so far). The results of scaling 480p60 to 1280x720 have been very good. Try for yourself.


Holy maroley, now I'm confused?

The 480p60 mode is not DV(AVI) it is HDV (MPEG2) and will scale to 1280x720 very nicely. So, for me, the answer is yes (so far). The results of scaling 480p60 to 1280x720 have been very good. Try for yourself.

There goes my weekend.

Right, the HDV 480p60 mode is an SD mode but scale it to 1280x720 in your NLE and then push it out to HDTV. Amazing quality. I think Michael Pappas took some of my 480p60 stuff and sent it out to a 50" HDTV and could hardly tell the difference (so I hear).

Give it a try. The 480p60 HDV mode is the "hidden gem" on the HD-100. It is very versitile.

Right, the HDV 480p60 mode is an SD mode but scale it to 1280x720 in your NLE and then push it out to HDTV. Amazing quality. I think Michael Pappas took some of my 480p60 stuff and sent it out to a 50" HDTV and could hardly tell the difference (so I hear).

Give it a try. The 480p60 HDV mode is the "hidden gem" on the HD-100. It is very versitile.


Stephen, are you saying (for instance in FCP) create a custom setup capturing 720x480 native DV anamorphic with a 1280x720 timeline?

Okay not so confused now. Thanks Stephen. Words can be so misleading sometimes.

luego G

Stephen, are you saying (for instance in FCP) create a custom setup capturing 720x480 native DV anamorphic with a 1280x720 timeline?
Not exactly, What you can do is create a 720p30 timeline and then trim the 480p60 file and place it on the 720p30 (29.97) timeline. Now scale the 480p60 clip to "fit aspect". Now I don't use FCP (I use Liquid) so from this point some of the FCP guru's can probably tell you how to get the slow mo from the 60p clip. My guess is that you conform the clip to 29.97 which will give you slowmo by 50%.

S.Noe

I need to try that out, except with PPRO.

But I think what Bruce and everyone else wants to know is...
Can CA and SSE when shooting HDV over SD for NTSC with a DTE and FCP without invoking FA on the JVC cause the GOP in your NLE to have PMS? ;)

Can CA and SSE when shooting HDV over SD for NTSC with a DTE and FCP without invoking FA on the JVC cause the GOP in your NLE to have PMS? ;)

Well... no!! But maybe when shooting SD or DV over HDV for PAL and not NTSC with a NLE like PPRO or even FCP invoking FA on the JVC may cause the GOP in your NLE to have PMS when psuhed out to HDTV.

Not exactly, What you can do is create a 720p30 timeline and then trim the 480p60 file and place it on the 720p30 (29.97) timeline. Now scale the 480p60 clip to "fit aspect". Now I don't use FCP (I use Liquid) so from this point some of the FCP guru's can probably tell you how to get the slow mo from the 60p clip. My guess is that you conform the clip to 29.97 which will give you slowmo by 50%.

S.Noe


That's pretty much what I'm saying in FCP lingo...you still have to bring the 480p footage in and therefore would have to capture it as 720x480 DV anamorphic in order to be able to drop into the 1280 by 720 29.97 timeline.
Otherwise it won't rescale at the proper aspect ratio.
That's the way you'd do it in FCP.

That's pretty much what I'm saying in FCP lingo...you still have to bring the 480p footage in and therefore would have to capture it as 720x480 DV anamorphic in order to be able to drop into the 1280 by 720 29.97 timeline.
Otherwise it won't rescale at the proper aspect ratio.
That's the way you'd do it in FCP.
I guess that's the difference. In Liquid you just capture the 480p60 file through the firewire and it ends up in the rack as 720x480 59.94fps MP@H-14 and ready to edit (ie a raw HDV clip). There is no cross conversion to DV. I guess that's the difference in NLE's. Once it's in the NLE then you do the proceedure I listed above. It's a snap and the results are very good. The slow mo is excellent and I'll be using this proceedure when I need slow motion.

I guess that's the difference. In Liquid you just capture the 480p60 file through the firewire and it ends up in the rack as 720x480 59.94fps MP@H-14 and ready to edit (ie a raw HDV clip). There is no cross conversion to DV. I guess that's the difference in NLE's. Once it's in the NLE then you do the proceedure I listed above. It's a snap and the results are very good. The slow mo is excellent and I'll be using this proceedure when I need slow motion.

Not quite. The process for 480P60 has nothing to do with DV. It is still HDV, just not 720P

The procedure in FCP for "HDV-SD60P" (aka 480P60) footage ingest is:

Capture using a m2t capture application like Lumiere HD, HDVxDV, or DVHSCap. Use Mpegstreamclip to cross-convert and up-rez (1 step) to AIC 720P60 (just set 1280x720) as resolution. You can do this as a batch process for a bunch of clips.

Alternatively you could use iMovie HD or the HDV to AIC digitizer in FCP (transcodes to AIC on-the-fly) but you will have to uprez to HD later.

Then open Cinema Tools and batch conform all of your new 720P60 clips to 23.98fps (or 29.97 if you like.)

Drag the clips into FCP and edit.

Not quite. The process for 480P60 has nothing to do with DV. It is still HDV, just not 720P

The procedure in FCP for "HDV-SD60P" (aka 480P60) footage ingest is:

Capture using a m2t capture application like Lumiere HD, HDVxDV, or DVHSCap. Use Mpegstreamclip to cross-convert and up-rez (1 step) to AIC 720P60 (just set 1280x720) as resolution. You can do this as a batch process for a bunch of clips.

Alternatively you could use iMovie HD or the HDV to AIC digitizer in FCP (transcodes to AIC on-the-fly) but you will have to uprez to HD later.

Then open Cinema Tools and batch conform all of your new 720P60 clips to 23.98fps (or 29.97 if you like.)

Drag the clips into FCP and edit.



Tim, any reason (other than the simultaneous uprez) why getting Lumiere would be preferable using the FCP AIC digitizer?

The procedure in FCP for "HDV-SD60P" (aka 480P60) footage ingest is:


Tim, I looked at this and, after reading the manual I noticed that HDV-SD50P is actually 576 lines instead of 480. So we get a 20% resolution increase using 50P. Now, since I plan on shooting 24P, the 50P gives me a 50% slomo effect plus a spurious frame that we can easily ingnore. I did some quick test and it came our quite nicely. Am I missing anything?

--
Paolo

I need to try that out, except with PPRO.

But I think what Bruce and everyone else wants to know is...
Can CA and SSE when shooting HDV over SD for NTSC with a DTE and FCP without invoking FA on the JVC cause the GOP in your NLE to have PMS? ;)


I feel sorry for trhe poor buggers reading that who have no idea what half of those abbrevationa mean. There should be a Sticky on that i.e Abbr. What do you think guys? In fact I may chuck a thread up?

Greg

Tim, any reason (other than the simultaneous uprez) why getting Lumiere would be preferable using the FCP AIC digitizer?
Not in the case of slo-mo - unless you want to maintain sync audio. However you wouldn't have that luxury anyway if you shot on film.

I feel sorry for trhe poor buggers reading that who have no idea what half of those abbrevationa mean. There should be a Sticky on that i.e Abbr. What do you think guys? In fact I may chuck a thread up?

Greg
I've been working on a definitive FAQ. I should have it finished in a couple of weeks if I get a few days off.

Tim, I looked at this and, after reading the manual I noticed that HDV-SD50P is actually 576 lines instead of 480. So we get a 20% resolution increase using 50P. Now, since I plan on shooting 24P, the 50P gives me a 50% slomo effect plus a spurious frame that we can easily ingnore. I did some quick test and it came our quite nicely. Am I missing anything?

Paulo, I've done it and it works, and yes the uprez looks even better because it is PAL resolution (576P50).

The only thing to watch for when shooting in North America is flicker from 60Hz cycle sources like flourescent bulbs or possibly HMI lights. Square wave ballasts on HMIs should be fine.

The same would be true for those on 50Hz countries shooting 60P.

I feel sorry for trhe poor buggers reading that who have no idea what half of those abbrevationa mean. There should be a Sticky on that i.e Abbr. What do you think guys? In fact I may chuck a thread up?

Greg
I agree with you, I think Daniel was making a joke about that. There are lots of abbreviations that many of us don't know what they mean, still more when English is not your language.

How about in Edius? What is the best procedure to make nice slowmotion with 480/60p footage on the 720/30p timeline?

Laszlo

[QUOTE=Laszlo Horvath]How about in Edius? What is the best procedure to make nice slowmotion with 480/60p footage on the 720/30p timeline?

Laszlo

I don't know if this is what you mean, but you can export your 480/60p footage through ProCoder Express and convert it to 720/30p. Although I really cannot see the point. If I place the 720 copy on top of the original and toggled the video preview on and off to show each one in turn and really cannot see any difference!.
Am I missing something here? If so, someone please tell me!

Cheers

Tony

[QUOTE=Laszlo Horvath]How about in Edius? What is the best procedure to make nice slowmotion with 480/60p footage on the 720/30p timeline?

Laszlo

I don't know if this is what you mean, but you can export your 480/60p footage through ProCoder Express and convert it to 720/30p. Although I really cannot see the point. If I place the 720 copy on top of the original and toggled the video preview on and off to show each one in turn and really cannot see any difference!.
Am I missing something here? If so, someone please tell me!

Cheers

Tony


No Tony you don't miss anything. I tried this too before, and now I just use the 480/60p footage on the 720/30p timeline AS IS.
What I tried to find out is, if any possibility to upconvert 480/60p footage to 720/60p. Edius is not support 720/60p
Or, convert 30p to 60p is unpossible?

Laszlo

Yes. it is impossible with Edius NX for HDV but you can record the 720/60p
analogue signal through Edius SP for HDV.
Unfortunately it is only available in a desktop configuration and sells in the UK for about £3000. So not really an option for weddings just yet, but I am convinced that people are working on it as we speak. This new breed of camera will be inspiring companies to come up with solutions. There is also of course Wafian but that again is for studio use and even more expensive.

I am having a look at the HDV upgrade for DV Rack but even if that works (and I cannot believe it will record 720/60p) it is still too awkward for live events.

No, the only way is as you are doing it right now, but you could do what Tim suggested and record in 576/50p. The picture is better but I do not know about the 'flicker' problems in the US as Tim mentioned. I have tried it the other way here in he UK and it seems OK. but use 576/50p anyway.

I think we will have to wait about another one to two years but I ams ure it will happen, maybe with Focus Enhancements?

Cheers


Tony

Thanks Tony!

So, let say if I use 576/50p outside daytime, I don't need to worry any flickering am I right?

[QUOTE=Laszlo Horvath]Thanks Tony!

So, let say if I use 576/50p outside daytime, I don't need to worry any flickering am I right?

Lazslo

Should be fine outdoors, but am willing to be corrected.

You can still tell it is SD and not HDV but as I assume you will only be wanting to change this for slo-mo sequences (bouquet toss/confetti throw)you should be OK.

It's a bit like a 'slight of hand' trick, the change of speed should distract all but the very observant from the change in rez. On top of that I normally put a bit of smooth blur on slo-mo, or on a very few ocasions even a bit of soft focus if making a 'dreamy' sequence, which covers it even more . Not ideal but a half decent work around. I have asked others for a better solution but no one has replied with anything yet, so I will carry on with this.

Works for me.

Tony

Laszlo
No, the only way is as you are doing it right now, but you could do what Tim suggested and record in 576/50p. The picture is better but I do not know about the 'flicker' problems in the US as Tim mentioned. I have tried it the other way here in he UK and it seems OK. but use 576/50p anyway.
Tony

The flicker is visible when using fluorescent lights (neon tubes) and shooting at a speed different from the frequency of the electricity used to run the lights.
This is visible in the LCD display of the camera. You have to pay attention but it's very visible. The same is true for shooting 24fps in 720p, in the US since we use current at 60Hz. The neon tubes flicker by nature, their rate is different from the shutter speed in the camera hence the disturbing effect in the footage.

If you are in Europe or other countries where the current is at 50Hz and you're shooting in 50P you don't have to worry.


--
Paolo

Can ANYONE please explain to me how you can really take a 720x480 SD clip and make it into a 1280x720 HDV clip? Where does the extra pixels come from? If you can create an HDV clip from an SD clip why would you need to buy an HDV camera?

Yes, in Edius I can convert from 720x480 to 1280x720 and my video info tells me I have a 1280x720 clip in fact I can make an HDV 720p and HDV 1080i and lots more besides...but when I play these clips on the timeline, side by side to the original SD clip it looks no different! and it certainly does not look anything like as sharp as an original HDV-HD capture.

Am I not really understanding what is going on here or is this a case of 'The Emperor's New Clothes?

Someone please explain

Tony