Just curious about what people think abotu the HVX (at this time) for longform work..

heres what im considering to be a decent workflow, but again, this is newar future, not now...

Shoot HVX P2, use P2Store and transfer data on the fly
Will def need at least 2 8gb cards, hopefully we'll see larger cap cards soon... but for now, 8gb is what we got to play with..

Now, seeing as there is a mountain of work, i ned to archive these jobs... the only real option at this time for archiving is either HDD, or BlueRay.
Now for me, i usually have about 10 jobs waiting in the que, average between 6 to 12 hours of raw material for each job, be it wedding seminar, party concert etc etc..

HDD archiving at this time will just be too much $$ (ive got 2 TB on one machine and 1TB on another and even these are pushing their limits using DV and HDV)
So next opion is BlueRay... hopefully bluw ray will be out withn the next 4 months or so.. but it seems to be the only viable option at this time when it comes to archiving...

basiclaly from the P2Store, to PC, to BluRay, then to the fireproof safe for archving until the edit begins...

I am yet to be able to think up of another option of archiving, and of course this is all relative to cost.
Im seriosuly considering jumping ship to the JVC or Canon simply for the archiving abilities of tape, but i am loathe to jump on teh HDV ship as im using Z1s now as well, and im less than impressed. Like DV, over time, u DO start to notice the HDV nuances as as i require either umcompressed audio, or audio bitrates higher than 448kbps HDV jsut doesnt cut it for me...
Another option ive seriosuly been considering, is the SonyF330 XDCam. Th eonly issue with this is the Cost, and with this, i WONT be able to have 2 identical units, as id only be able to afford one.. if that...

so what are your thoughts on this??
Were talkin archiving for at least 3 to 6 months before i can even get to an edit from teh day of shooting.. another option of course is to get another staff member, but that in itself i anoher headache..

thoughts are greatly appreciated...

I dont think the HVX as it is presently configured makes much sense for long form work (particularly in the HD mode). If it is HD you want--then HDV is the way to go and the Canon or JVC make the most sense. I am kind of in the same situation as you are and I'm currently researching the other two cameras.

Actually, the project I have coming up wil absolutely be long-form - we'll probably end up with 8-15 hours of content just for Volume One!

To me, the issue of archiving would be the same regardless of which camera I'd be using. One way or another, whether it's capturing to a PB, shooting to P2 or even traditional tape, eventually all that original footage has to be stored in some way.

Once the project is finished I plan to archive to HDDs. The shelf life will outlive me, they're not limited to Blue-Ray disc size and they don't have the limitations of tape - especially when stored for long periods.

Did you know that commercial tape libraries have a rotational schedule whereby they cycle-wind each tape from begining to end once a year just to keep the tape from sticking to itself? Who wants that kind of hassle?

There is no perfect archiving solution, but my logic says that HDD's are more cost effective long-term, more stable and will outlast even Blue-Ray. But on that last point, I'd be long dead before either a Blue-Ray's pits were unusable or a HDD's platter lost it's magnetic integrity. (laughs)

Working on a two-hour documentary for a well know cable channel right now, using Varicam as well as the HVX-200. About 50/50 split, as we have two HVXs and one Varicam. All the B-Roll and interviews done with the varicam, but the recreations...a majority done with the HVXs.

5 4GB cards and a P2 Store make the swapping out of cards fast and easy. Transporting to a big 1TB G-Raid for me to convert, and transfer the footage to internal 400GB SATA drives, that I take out and shelf. The cost of the one drive easily outweighs the cost we would have incurred with the 30 hours of P2 footage. (DVCPRO HD tapes are $26 each).

Sure, there are a LOT of clips to sort thru and label, but that is what I'd be doing had they come in on a tape. Once Blu-Ray comes out, we might back up again to them...but we wouldn't rely on them. Scratches can be murder.

With BlueRay(XDCam discs) they come in PSP like disc enclosures, so scratches arent an issue.. also with scratches, u can take them to ur video store and get the scratches buffed out with their high speed disc repair systems.. either way, there is always an optical option..

predominately im considering the HVX for weddings and stage shows/concerts which run for at least 3 hours... and storage wil be for no more than 1 year either way..

Also, with the amount of work i do, and the fact im a one man band, i need a surefire quick solution without too many convoluted steps. I really dont want to add to much to my existing workflow, and Ive compensated for teh P2, and it can be managed, but from here, im seriously considering the the JVC, simply for the archival options...

I would honestly prefer the HVX.. i use DVX and Z1s now and the DVX is jsut a seriously kick ass system with a stunning dynamic range and colour rendition. The HVX is obviously the same, but if it comes down to it, i wont have a choice but ot jump ship.. which is something i do not want to do...

Last night at Moviola that very question was asked. Michael Cioni the Director of Operations DI supervisor at PlasterCity Digital Post said that the HVX200 is not ready for long form Documentary work.

Many of us were shocked to learn last night the Firestore is still having issues with the 100mbs stream from the HVX200. We were told that it's sw related and would get worked out, however I would stick with P2 for now.


Just curious about what people think abotu the HVX (at this time) for longform work..

Many of us were shocked to learn last night the Firestore is still having issues with the 100mbs stream from the HVX200.If you're referring to the FireStore FS-100 for DVCPRO HD, that product isn't even out yet, it's still in development. It's a pretty far stretch to proclaim "issues" with something that hasn't even been released to the market. It's not fair to judge something until it's finished, is it?

I'm a LOT more interested on the Cineporter. Firestore just doesn't seem like such a good option, to me. I hope they deliver the product soon. As it stands, I'm still going for an HVX- just don't know if I shoud go with the NTSC or Pal model (this is my main issue- do Broadcast ready material, or do filmout ready material? Extra 20% on slowmotion, or Pal broadcast 720p 50 ?)

Sorry about the Rant :)

EDIT- I think for longform work, with the 8gb cards more Affordable, what is needed is an update to the P2 Store. a 300gb version would be the ideal, but a 200gb would suffice, I believe, for a good day of shooting for both concerts and event coverage (3 and a half hours of 1080i, I believe). What would also be needed was 2 8gb P2 cards and one 4gb one, (to give time for the first 8gbcard to dump to the p2store- some extra 4 minutes of time for the backup)

Oh, and the p2store should keep the current price for this upgrade :)

Many of us were shocked to learn last night the Firestore is still having issues with the 100mbs stream from the HVX200. We were told that it's sw related and would get worked out, however I would stick with P2 for now.

Could you provide further details on what these problems are and what support you have for the information.

A serious issue for us is the ability to work long form with the Panasonic. The Firestore is one critical issue in that equation, and greatly affects our significant purchasing decision.

For that reason, our company is greatly interested if the information you provided came from a credible source.

Thank you for any further information you may have.

I believe the CinePorter, like the FS-100, is being aimed for an NAB release, or at least Spec-Comm and Focus will say at NAB when they expect to release the CinePorter and the FS-100.

But I'm not even certain that Cineporter, which is supposed to be a p2 device will record 24PN.

These are workflow issues for long form

Our company is very concerned them. I'm just wondering about the source of the information.

I also heard that the CitiDISK™ HD isn't a capture device, but a download device.

Doug from Panasonic and others still said that the confidence is in the P2. I just wouldn't trust the Firestore until some time into production.

I like P2, when the prices drop it will be even better....

Shannon Rawls uses the Firestore with his two XLH1's. He has called them to report the timecode issues he has. It appears that Firestore is slow to deal with this, even though the XLH1 will be going on 4 months in the market place soon.


Could you provide further details on what these problems are and what support you have for the information.

A serious issue for us is the ability to work long form with the Panasonic. The Firestore is one critical issue in that equation, and greatly affects our significant purchasing decision.

For that reason, our company is greatly interested if the information you provided came from a credible source.

Thank you for any further information you may have.

I wonder if the P2 Store can be user upgraded with a Seagate 160GB 2.5" drive. Anyone opened up the P2 Store? Hopefully the software in the P2 would recognize that it has a larger drive when the drive is formatted.

The only issue I've had with 8GB P2 cards is for continuous recording (eg concert). But the same problem exists with tapes, just not as often. For the bulk of my shooting, the 40 minutes I have in the camera (at 720/25pn) seems quite comfortable. The ease of editing later is awesome. It feels more like sorting stills than capturing tape.

As for backup, I just ordered a terabyte RAID array. I'll probably just keep everything I decide to use (or save) while editing in FCP rather than everything off the cards.

My calculation are not researched very carefully but HDD looks pretty cheap per hour of 720/24:

- HDD at approximately $1 to $1.50 per GB, or $4.50 per hour of recording. This is based on 500GB drive pricing.
- DVCPRO HD tapes at $80 per hour of recording
- DVCPRO tape at $20 per hour of recording
- mini-DV at $9 per hour for quality tape

- HDD at approximately $1 to $1.50 per GB, or $4.50 per hour of recording.

huh?

An hour of 100Mbps is about 52GB - $52 - $80 at your GB price...

Regarding the FireStore FS-100, it is incredibly unfair to suggest that a product that hasn't even been released to the market yet "has issues" -- it's still in development, therefore how can anyone rightfully pass judgement on something that isn't even finished yet.

That would be like me coming over to take a look at your early rough cut, and saying, "dude, this sucks, it's not properly edited..." see what I mean?

Ugly rumors like this are horrible, they do more damage than any good, and they have no place here.

I wonder if the P2 Store can be user upgraded with a Seagate 160GB 2.5" drive. Anyone opened up the P2 Store? Hopefully the software in the P2 would recognize that it has a larger drive when the drive is formatted.

The only issue I've had with 8GB P2 cards is for continuous recording (eg concert). But the same problem exists with tapes, just not as often. For the bulk of my shooting, the 40 minutes I have in the camera (at 720/25pn) seems quite comfortable. The ease of editing later is awesome. It feels more like sorting stills than capturing tape.

As for backup, I just ordered a terabyte RAID array. I'll probably just keep everything I decide to use (or save) while editing in FCP rather than everything off the cards.

My calculation are not researched very carefully but HDD looks pretty cheap per hour of 720/24:

- HDD at approximately $1 to $1.50 per GB, or $4.50 per hour of recording. This is based on 500GB drive pricing.
- DVCPRO HD tapes at $80 per hour of recording
- DVCPRO tape at $20 per hour of recording
- mini-DV at $9 per hour for quality tape

I think the limit of the current P2store is stablished not only because of the hard drive in it but also because o f the limitation of its software design to be compatible with the 4gb cards (Which can only dump 15 times?). There might be some kind of software upgrade needed to be done in order for it to accept beyond the 60gb limitation (not only swapping internal hardware...)

huh?

An hour of 100Mbps is about 52GB - $52 - $80 at your GB price...
He said 720/24p. So an hour of 40mbps is about $21 at $1 per gig, but that's if you're buying 500gb drives. If you're buying 300gb drives it drops to about $12 per hour.

I shouldn't try calculations after midnight. Even at $12 to $20 per hour, HDD is in the ballpark with tape and much more convenient. This also assumes that each tape is full, which is very rarely the case for me.

The only real issue is the "all the eggs" in one basket situation. That's where RAID comes in.

It's all going to get a lot better fast, as the P2 cards get bigger and the disks get cheaper. But I think tapeless has arrived, at least for me.

He said 720/24p. So an hour of 40mbps is about $21 at $1 per gig, but that's if you're buying 500gb drives. If you're buying 300gb drives it drops to about $12 per hour.

Ah, yes... quite right! I was thinking of recording rather than just backup... which will be at 100Mbps unless the recording device can remove pulldown. But he did say he's happy with his 40-minute P2 recording time.

But on that last point, I'd be long dead before either a Blue-Ray's pits were unusable or a HDD's platter lost it's magnetic integrity.

Even if your hard drive still spins up in ten years, how do you plan to read it? Maybe it will still be supported if it's NTFS on SATA, but parallel IDE will be long dead by then, possibly SCSI too. And readable platters won't help you much if the bearings are stuck or the electronics are dead.

Personally I'd much rather trust long-term storage to Blue-Ray or tape than hard drives. We seem to be setting ourselves up for a future where much of our history is lost because it's simply unreadable after a couple of decades.

Agree. In my experience, any drives lasting longer than five-years shelf (two years for continous use) is rare. I have drawers full of them, and I also have the tapes. A few times I have to rebuild projects from the tapes, and the support files which are also archived to DVDs. Still, rarely do any of my projects last much beyond three years. By then the product, message, etc has changed and it is completely rescripted. So choose your archive based on the project life.

However, I can tell you that I have cheap VHS tapes from the 80's that play back brand new today. Even so, VHS is a dying/dead format, but I can still buy new VHS/Beta decks to reclaim the media from those tapes. The PC architecture is changing much to quickly to even suggest the same kind of accessibility.

What happens when tape itself (not just VHS) is put to pasture?

Two words: Media Transfer.

Nothing that is *current* today will be so 20 years from now. Since 70% of all media available today is a digital format, be it HDD, optical or tape, it's certainly not a huge thing to migrate footage from one media type to another and thankfully the process is lossless.

IDE, SATAII and SCSI going away? No problem, x-fer off to whatever comes down the pike. Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, XD-Disc being replaced by a TB disc format? Same thing - transfer!

The nice thing about technology today is that most of us have the ability to do these transfers right off our main edit systems and no longer require going to a specialized transfer house or service bureau.

Of course, I'm glad service bureaus still exist: Has anyone ever had a client show up with Hi-8 tapes and asked for a wedding edit or worse, transfer to DVD? I've never even owned a Hi-8 deck much less have one now! (big laughs)

Personally, I think the future of storage is solid state. Tapes are going away and spinning disks of any kind are going to be passe too. I ran across an article from NASA researchers working with German engineers to create the next-gen of RAM. Imagine one TB of RAM that is about the size of a current CF card - storage heaven.

Two words: Media Transfer.

Great if you've got the time and money to waste continually transferring the data: but if you're going to do that, why do you even care how long the media will last? Your original claim was that data on hard drives would outlast you and Blue-Ray disks... but to be actually readable you'll have to transfer to a different medium way before the data on a Blue-Ray disk will have 'rotted'.

Just how often would you really need to make a transfer? Once every 10 years or so? Heck, even if it's every 5 years that's neither a huge investment of either time or money.

We're not talking about migrating an entire library every other year when the next cool-fad hits the market, we're talking about long-term storage of archives.

My point about the longevity of digital media is that barring any unusual behavior like bearings freezing up (I have a handful of HDD's from the days of the Amiga and x486 machines and they still spin up under command and x-fer data just like they did when they were new) the actual data will outlast any human's life-span. Tape on the other hand won't. But that's an academic debate and not real world requirements.

The reality is for those who need viable library access and storage there are also built-in upgrade paths in the form of media migration which done on an archival schedule is neither costly nor time-consuming over the long term.