I tried to get some SSE on the camera tonight. Here is a brief clip (in AIC) of Tim D's lowlight scene file with 18db of gain in the dark. It's ugly. But SSE isn't all that bad. It's about 20 megs - very short but i didn't want to compress so everybody could see the nasties that come out to play at 18db gain and a boosted gamma.

I have a question about others experience with SSE: Does it pretty much stay constant with specific lighting level/gain, or does it fluctuate? In other words, could you have one shot with no SSE at 18 db gain and lo light and another shot at 18db and lo light with SSE?

http://protozoic.com/hd100/sse.mov

I take you need a Mac to view this file?

It fluctuates. The calibration process looks at both sides of the frame and makes decisions dynamically.

What I'm not quite sure of is with all the horrible noise and artifacts visible in your clip, why SSE would be of any worry? :-)

True,

Here's my plan on when to use +18dB gain:

NEVER


Maybe 3 to 6dB, but never more for me.

It fluctuates. The calibration process looks at both sides of the frame and makes decisions dynamically.

What I'm not quite sure of is with all the horrible noise and artifacts visible in your clip, why SSE would be of any worry? :-)

DING! You win the prize. I could care less if SSE shows up if the pictures looks this bad at 18db.

Sure if it shows up at 0db I'd take issue, but if you have to push the camera this hard to get it to show up, I do think SSE is not really a concern anymore.

...I do think SSE is not really a concern anymore.
Actually, it could be. Today I was shooting a 'talking head' indoors and behind the person was this creamy colour wall. There were some pictures and a plant in the corner yet there was still enough wall left to generate SSE. Fairly faint it was but I could see it on the camera LCD. I shot in SD at 0dB, manual WB and with a properly exposed image. The person was in the foreground and the wall was probably a stop and a half under. I think it's actually certain colours that are bad with SSE. I find that creamy beigey peachy browny combo is the worst.

Now, don't shoot the messenger, I am just sharing my latest first-hand experience...

DING! You win the prize. I could give a crap if SSE shows up if the pictures looks this bad at 18db.

JVC's position has always been that SSE is just one of many artifacts that occur under certain lighting conditions. The example, they use -- and I agree -- is that for those who like to shoot at night, vertical smearing is the worst possible artifact. Yet, you see it all the time. So often we are all "used to it." For me it is the clearest indication of video -- not film.

So for film lovers -- all the cameras should be compared on this spec. My guess is Sony has done the best job with their HyperHAD CCDs. And, CMOS which JVC wants to use, has no vertical smear.

JVC's position has always been that SSE is just one of many artifacts that occur under certain lighting conditions.

That may be their position, but under those conditions, if you are seeing SSE at 0dB, send it in to be calibrated.

There have been users that have had their cameras improved by sending them in to JVC.

You are really using this gain - +18db for a real project? I don't think so. It's like we don't have a subject and we must discuss something. If you have SSE at 0 dB I understand, but I don't know any persson who is using a camera (HD100 or not) with the gain at the value of 18 dB. In this industry nobody should use 18 dB - only my opinion.

I think this function can be used only when you are shooting some news for a television and you forgot to take the light - lamp with you.

I absolutely agree

You are really using this gain - +18db for a real project? I don't think so.

God no. It is hideous looking. I was torture testing the camera last night to see if and when SSE showed up. It kind of came at 18db with the lights off, so I'm not overly worried. I thought I'd share because there isn't a lot of footage out there and this was a "worst case" scenario for when SSE might pop up for others to see. In fact, its such a "worst case" scenario that the footage under these conditions is rendered completely unusable by noise, etc., far before SSE pops up.

For those scared of SSE - don't be. If you get a camera that exhibits it at low gain, get it adjusted - it can clearly be tuned to the point where it is just not an issue.

A lot of folks are trying to make decisions about which 6k camera to get. They all seem to be great. Don't be scared by the FUD of SSE, low res on the HVX, etc.

A lot of folks are trying to make decisions about which 6k camera to get. They all seem to be great. Don't be scared by the FUD of SSE, low res on the HVX, etc.


SSE isn't FUD, it's real and you can't make an informed decision or help people making one by wishing it away or saying that it only happpens at 18 db. Clearly is doesn't. Myself and another poster today have document it at 0 db...one in full daylight outdoors and one lit well indoors.

If it's an issue of older cameras then people need to know that and to make sure their camera comes from the newest stock.

If it's from firmware upgrades or can be tweaked otherwise from JVC people need to be aware that they may have to send their camera's in for that.

If JVC has in fact dealt with it universally with new "implementation" then that needs to be made clear.

I'm in the middle of just such a choice of scenarios and should have a pretty clear answer to which is which by the end of this week.

But, when a company states that SSE is a part of the camera's implemetation of true 24p, it's not helping anyone to say that it's been fixed and doesn't exist any longer or only occurs under ridiculous situations. As a producer, I've never shot above 0 db for anything but a "got to get it under this light or not at all" situation, and then maybe push it to +3....+6 is extreme to me.

If they have, in fact, completely eliminated SSE then I would expect that announced loud and clear from JVC.

So far they seem to be very responsive to the issue in our case and as I said in another thread, I'm very pleased with them as a company

Jim,
I agree it's not FUD, but.........

If anyone is seeing SSE at 0dB, they need to SEND their camera into JVC (as you mentioned).

No offense, but I found it almost impossible to believe that you are seeing SSE on the LCD. All documented cases of SSE that have been posted on this board are hard enough to see using STILL frames on an computer monitor, the fact that you are seeing something that looks like SSE in normal lighting situations at 0db and you can see it through the LCD (when the image is moving) indicates there is a major problem with your HD100. It might not even be SSE but something far worse.

Just get the unit replaced, that is NOT normal for the HD100.

It is FUD to suggest that SSE is a typical problem with the HD100, it is a RARE problem that occurs primarily with older HD100's. If our HD100 would have arrived from B&H with the SSE you describe we would have simply exchanged it for another one.

Did you buy from an authorized dealer so you can exchange it easily?

The FUD I am referring to is that all HD100's are ruined by SSE in all shots. I don't think that is the case with many cameras. Certainly not mine. If you have a problem at 0db, it clearly needs servicing.

When we were making decisions about which camera to buy, there was a lot of misinformation going around about how bad SSE was, how dropouts will ruin every shot, how the chromatic aberration of the lens would make footage a green/magenta mess, how HDV compression was unable to capture any detail in movement, etc. Not to say that this stuff can't happen.

I posted the footage to make the point that in this random HD100, the image was rendered unusable by other factors when SSE popped up. Most of us don't have to worry about it. If it is causing a major problem with your camera, it should get fixed. One of the reasons we got our camera a month before we needed it so we could run it through it's paces and get any issues resolved before we it became mission critical.

I think this thread has probably outlived its usefulness (if it ever had any).

I think professionals disseminating factual information is always helpful.
Perhaps this reply that I'm copying from another post will clarify things. Your not the only one that got the camera in advance and did rigorous testing in studio and on location. We even did film to HD comparisons in several situations.
We're not doing local cable, we're doing national work for the most part.


<<Will do Jiri.
The people at JVC have been very helpful so far and I'm expecting a quick resolution to this based on our conversations today.
As I've said before, we did some very rigorous testing on our own soundstage before we ever used it.
In fact, I set it up on set after shooting a commercial on film and had the talent stay for a second quick version with the HD100 for comparisons.
Then we shot for two days of various tests before heading out for the first serious broadcast work.
As I said...even at night under natural lighting in the Olympic village we got no SSE.
What concerned me was that we did get it a week later in full daylight and it was dramatic over 5 or 6 scenes.
So that's why I'm just dealing with it...because it just occured for the first time.
I think that's worth other people being aware of.
It's alot better than blowing an irreplaceable shoot and finding out when you get back to the studio and the talent has all flown back to NYC.>>

I am the one who can see the SSE on the camera's LCD. Interestingly, it's almost invisible on an SD monitor in my suite. I have to really strain my eyes to see it there. I don't currently have an HD production monitor and, therefore, I am concerned how much it's going to show on HD. Perhaps it's much less visible than I think. Once you have seen it, it's easy to see it again - but people who have never seen it don't usually notice anything.

And yes, I bought the camera from a reputable dealer, so it could be returned.

I think professionals disseminating factual information is always helpful.

I think that's worth other people being aware of.
It's alot better than blowing an irreplaceable shoot and finding out when you get back to the studio and the talent has all flown back to NYC.>>

I totally agree. I think we all hope that the issues you are experiencing get resolved quickly.

Sorry Jim, I was replying to Jiri's post about SSE being visible in the LCD, I wasn't replying to your post at all. I should have quoted Jiri's post so it would be more clear.

Sorry for the confusion. Wasn't trying to be preachy, just trying to be helpful because it would seem like a major problem that needs servicing or replacement if the SSE can be seen even in the LCD, I was thinking it was maybe something else and not SSE.

Jim, that's interesting that you got no SSE in a low light situation but then got SSE in a normal lighting situation later, that is useful info.

Ben

No offense, but I found it almost impossible to believe that you are seeing SSE on the LCD.
Why? It can show up on the LCD. I had a shot overlooking Hollywood, up by the Hollywood sign, and it was broad daylight and the SSE was clearly visible in the camera's LCD and viewfinder. 0db.

If anyone is seeing SSE at 0dB, they need to SEND their camera into JVC (as you mentioned).Quoted because it's well worth repeating. This statement is the best thing to come out of this thread.

Sorry Jim, I was replying to Jiri's post about SSE being visible in the LCD, I wasn't replying to your post at all. I should have quoted Jiri's post so it would be more clear.

Sorry for the confusion. Wasn't trying to be preachy, just trying to be helpful because it would seem like a major problem that needs servicing or replacement if the SSE can be seen even in the LCD, I was thinking it was maybe something else and not SSE.

Jim, that's interesting that you got no SSE in a low light situation but then got SSE in a normal lighting situation later, that is useful info.

Ben


No problem Ben, because I've been very strong in endorsing the HD100 and making a point that It looked like the SSE issue was a non issue now, I felt it was that much more important to mention that it had occured under very normal circumstances.

I've been so pleased with the over all quality of the lens and image...things that seemed to get a bum rap for quite a while that I asked Barry if perhaps he had a bad, early version of the camera.
He responded that he was sure that he had and that it appeared that those issues had largely been QC issues at the time (I'm paraphrasing).

Anyway, I've had nothing but great support from JVC...I mean like no other tech company (and we've got audio, film/video and design studios so that's a lot of tech).
My initial contact with my regional people got me right to Ken Freed, (both of these connections actualy happening over the weekend via email).
By today I had a great talk with Dwayne Kersey from Perfect Experience that said that all that was important was that we were satisfied and that we were going to have what we needd for an important shoot this week.

Because there has been some discussion about this over all, I and because I said I'd share what I learned regarding this, I'm going to start a quick thread on it. I'm pretty comfortable that I've got the whole skinny, these people are very forthright and very responsible.

Quoted because it's well worth repeating. This statement is the best thing to come out of this thread.


Not to be contrary, but this is not necessarily as simple as that.
I believe, and JVC does as well that any HD100 CAN exhibit SSE at 0db.
"Can" being the operative word.
That's why I made the analogy that I did regarding the Mini35 and solid backgrounds and light skies.
I think it's more important that you know why, and whether it's repeatable and/or correctable.
JVC expects that if it happens it will be in "extreme" circumstances (not necessarily at 18db and low light)
Our big concern was seeing it against blue sky and snowy mountains, when we've got a big shoot coming up with lot's of open sky and snowy mountains

It may have been a fluke, it may have been not "warmed up" enough.
Obviously as a producer I don't want to see it at all, hence the dialogue but there was no SSE "out of the box" and no SSE in hours of other shooting including 6 hours in the studio today, and an all night shoot last night.