Sony has quit making the FX1. Most stores are sold out, so they're already rid of their old stock. So, could you NAB reporters please quit drooling over the cameras most of us can't afford (RED etc.) and please stop by the Sony booth and extract the information from them, as to whether they'll release an improved model, a dumbed down one, or no replacement at all?

You have my permission to go all Jack Bauer on their ass and shoot them in the leg if they are not forthcoming with the intel. Just kidding.:) Seriously, if Sony releases a dumbed down version or none at all, they'll already have shot themselves in the foot...again.

i think the answer is pretty clear.
HC1 has been downgraded to HC3
Z1 is not disappearing, FX1 is almost the same camera, so why should they replace it with a better camera (making the Z1 obsolete).
Certainly sony try to sell a lot of HDV camera because then they will sell a lot of LCD screen and blu-ray.
But selling a lot of camera means selling cheap camera, especially that all people looking for a good SONY HDV probably already buy the FX1 (they sell a lot of them , so market is probably saturated for a while now)
So we will see more HDV camera but with weaker specs (after all the sanyo is selling well, and PANA prooves you can build an HD camera with low resolution CCD).
If you want a good HDV camera for cheap, i think you should get an FX1 now, or wait and get 500$ rebate on a Z1 if you can afford it.

Sony has quit making the FX1.

Well I realize that this is the "net wisdom," but can anyone point to an official announcement from Sony that says the FX1 has been discontinued? All we have is anecdotal information as far as I can tell. B&H doesn't list the camera as discontinued, just "out of stock." And Sony still lists the FX1 for sale at their own "SonyStyle" site. So I'm confused as to what's really going on here....

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_BrowseCatalog-Start?CategoryName=dcc_DICamcorders_HighDefinitionVideo&Dept=cameras

Well EVS still has it listed http://www.evsonline.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=HDRFX1 I know I know, you all are passing out that I'm listing a sponsor............Boyd.....hehe. (just kidding)

So who knows. I also want to know if Sony or anyone is going to release anything comperable with the Z1u. I've been pounding the web all week waitng for something. I need to purchase around the middle or end of May.

I'm confused as well, Boyd (I'm also confused how to delete my double post, sorry). In the Sony FX1/Z1 thread people are reporting retailers, and Sony themselves, telling people it's been discountinued.

I just called B&H Photo and they said it's just out of stock, not discountinued. I was hoping for a newer better model with 24P or at least something comparable to Canon's 24f.

You guys at NAB can still pester Sony for something new and better from them.

Thanks.

See this other thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=65575&page=3

And it's true... the FX1 now shows up as being in stock again at B&H for $3,050:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=351515&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

Veeery interesting.... before I made that other post (3 or 4 hours ago) I looked at B&H's website and it was still listing the FX1 as "out of stock." Heh, I bet they're gonna get a bunch of orders now :-)

the price is up probably simply because the petrol is up and everthing made of plastic and travelling a way or another will be more expensive.

HC1 has been downgraded to HC3.
What is the thinking behing this? was the HC1 too good, they did this with the GS500 as well, conspiracy?

No, the HC1 was not too good. If you read some of the threads in the HC1/A1/HC3 forum, it is not good enough. The HC1 makes red look a little pink and the HC3 is reported to fix it. And, it is Sony, so rational thought may not have been used in the decision.

depends what you name better.
for regular consumer whom the cam is targeted to, yes HC3 is better.
better picture, smaller sized, cheaper, better sensitivity, hdmi output, better LCD.

for amateur, like probably most of us here, we loose micro input,video input, manual focus ring, about half milion pixel on sensor, component output.

Brendan Sundry,
The only logical explanation for this is what a lot of people are speculating. Both the GS500 and HC3 aren’t really successors to the GS400 and the HC1 even though both Panasonic and Sony may claim them to be. Both of them will receive true replacements later on this year. If I’m not correct then their truly aren’t any other explanation at all.


Imagine what the picture quality would be if the Z1u and the FX1 both had 3 CMOS chips instead of 3 CCDs as well as an option to run the tape faster to achieve the data rate of XD CAM HD.

No, the HC1 was not too good. If you read some of the threads in the HC1/A1/HC3 forum, it is not good enough. The HC1 makes red look a little pink and the HC3 is reported to fix it. And, it is Sony, so rational thought may not have been used in the decision.
Somebody posted links to the sensor pattern of the HC3, with much less colour pixels then bayer and turned pixels that don't fit rectangular/square pixels. This would mean less colour definition and pixel resolution then HC1's 4:2:0 pixel format.

Brendan Sundry,
Imagine what the picture quality would be if the Z1u and the FX1 both had 3 CMOS chips instead of 3 CCDs as well as an option to run the tape faster to achieve the data rate of XD CAM HD.
Yes, that would be a good enough reason to buy. I like the HC1's picture compared to the FX1 (though it is a compromise).

The ClearVid in the HC3 has poorer colour resolution and a smaller number of total pixels. The HC1 has to downsample, the HC3 has to upsample. The pixel layout is the usual square pixel array turned by 45 degrees. This is actually a very dirty trick, because when an image processing application then compares the HC1 to the HC3 to find out the 'true' resolution, the HC1 sensor is oriented so the weakest spacial lines are vertical and horizontal, whereas the HC3 is oriented so the weakest spacial linea are on the diagonals. So the HC3 has a boosted number for both vertical and horizontal resolution, even though this is hiding the weak diagonals.

Sony's excuse for this, is that most straight lines in the real word are horizontal and vertical, and they do have a point, but this should not be instead of a decent resolution sensor it should be as well as.

Real test shots have shown quite clearly that the HC3 has poorer resolution than the HC1, though Sony have quite clearly tried to compansate for this by using more agressive sharpening on the camcorder.

The single partially redeaming feature the ClearVid chip has, that the one in the HC1 does not have, is progressive scanning. It could just as easily as 60i give us 30p, or even 24p. True 24p. But they haven't bothered to impliment this on the camcorder. My cyncism gland is telling me to watch for a a more expensive camcorder that does do true 24p but with the same poor chip.

I say single, in that better low light performance ought to be, but for me this is just a fringe benifit of throwing away resolution (bigger pixels) lower red/blue resolution (a larger green area means higher signal) and much more processing needed to generate the image (interpolation/sharpening).

the FX1 wasn't really a big success.

Welcome to DVinfo John. Do you have any support for that statement, or is it just your opinion? It is contrary to everything I've read elsewhere.

I actually don't have any support for my statement, but I have heard how Sony rushed the FX1 for all the new HD technology.

I actually don't have any support for my statement, but I have heard how Sony rushed the FX1 for all the new HD technology.Yes, maybe, but even *if* it was 'rushed' (hey every new product on any market is almost always rushed to market) that doesn't have any correlation at all with whether or not it was a big succes or not.

I agree with Boyd, the FX1 was ground-breaking and a tremendous success. It brought capabilities to market that previously were the sole province of really quite expensive pro gear. The FX1 i think will go down as one of the all-time great camcorders, and as far as i know, was a big sales success as well as a technical marvel.

I also think that it [the FX1] will be around for a long time, despite the new technology. The advent of new cameras does not mean that the FX1 will stop working :) , the VX Series endured for a long time (just sometimes you still see people using them).

*One mans Old technology is annother mans New technology*


Anhar Husssain Miah

the FX1 wasn't really a big success.

Unless you have sales figures to suggest otherwise, I'd call it one of the most successful camcorder products ever in terms of "bang for the buck." A year and a half after it started shipping there still isn't anything to compete with it at a similar price, and no indication that any other camera manufacturer intends to try to rival it. If Sony truly has stopped making them it will be interesting to see what their next move is.

John Ashton,

You are way off here. First, it wasn't rushed, it came out 14 months after a public announcement that Sony was onboard for HDV in September 2003:

www.hdv-info.net

More than enough time to get it right. In fact, the "footprint" for how it's recorded to tape is superior to DV.

Also, how can you say the FX1 was a failure? It indeed was not, and did very well. The Z1 may have done more, but there are over 200,000 HDV cameras on the market and of that, 65,000 are Sony. (Source: www.vasst.com -- new book on HDV by Douglas Spotted Eagle, Mark Dileo and myself.)

So, before you start putting up false information, get the facts straight and also read our policy:

http://www.dvinfo.net/network/policy.php

heath

ps-The HC1 isn't listed on the www.sonystyle.com site.

hwm

I think it's safe to say that the FX1 was in fact a tremendous success. It reminds me of the VX100 and the impact that camcorder made on the industry. It's certainly popular around here anyway!

the FX1 wasn't really a big success.

Umm....the FX1 is simply the second biggest success in the history of mid-level priced camcorders, and the biggest success in it's market timeframe. Unlike your comment, I *do* have numbers to back up my statement. No camcorder in the 3K price range has ever been so successful other than the DVX100, and even then, the differences aren't that great. (I don't have confirmable numbers on DVX sales)

Overall, Sony announced that they've sold just over 150,000 HDV camcorders in the market compared to a third that of Canon and JVC combined. The Z1 and A1 were announced at NAB as being in the 60k+ units sold range (US). The rest would be FX1's and HC1's. Remember tho, Sony has had a full year jump on both competitors.
Additionally Craig Yanagi (marketing dir) has stated publically that JVC's HDV camcorders now outsell their SD camcorders. In other words, HDV is selling, and selling well.
Additionally, according to the US sales manager of consumer HDV, he's unaware the FX1 has been discontinued, and they still are receiving camcorders and taking allocations for more units in the US. A specific *market* might discontinue the camcorder, but that certainly doesn't mean Sony as a whole has discontinued them. But to say it was a failure is quite absurd.

Thanks, Spot, for the numbers. And for clarifying that it's 65,000 pro HDV Sony cameras sold so far.

heath

I have been watching this thread closely (as I own a FX1E).

For what it is worth - here is my two cents worth:

I do know that Sony has had to go through a huge 'green' (you know - 'environmentally friendly') compliance excercise (for the South African market anyway - I do not know about the rest of the world) and this has resulted in the manufacture of a number of products being delayed.

This information was given to me by Sony (broadcast) here in South Africa about a month and a half ago because I could not understand why I could not get a hold of certain Sony accessories and would have to wait at least eight weeks for the stock to arrive.

Being that kind of person I just had to find out for myself from alternate sources so I ended up calling Sony UK, Sony Hong Kong, Sony Holland (the warehouse), and Sony Japan (the factory), etc. etc. and was given pretty much the same story.

I was looking for Sony (professional and broadcast) mics at the time but I was told that this compliance 'move' was affecting stock availability of all sorts of products so - putting two and two together - I have a sneaky suspicion that this is the reason that a number of Sony products (possibly including the FX1) have been out of stock at certain retailers.

In a general discussion with a representative from one of the two big Sony (broadcast) distributors here in South Africa the big 'green' compliance 'move' was confirmed and he was not aware of any new replacement for the FX1 or the Z1 (and I do know that these are the type of guys that 'have the inside track' on things if you know what I mean).

So - this is another take on things that I have not seen mentioned in this thread (or any of the other similar threads that have been started by the same members on various other message boards).

Hopefully - this is the case.

Regards,

Dale.

the FX1 wasn't really a big success.


Neither were you, but I like you anyway.

ps-The HC1 isn't listed on the www.sonystyle.com site.

hwm

I think they are ushering in the HC3

Jerome,

Absolutely. It looks like the HC3 replacement as a consumer camera makes it more consumer and less pro, like the HC1. Likely because the pricepoint between the HC1 and A1 was so tiny. A lot of people (likely pros hoping for an FX1-style bargain) were buying the A1, I'm guessing, not enough true consumers were buying the HC1. That's a guess, but an educated one.

heath

In my city they don't even sell HC1's off the floor, you have to order them in. The problem over here (and in other PAL countries) is that they cost so much extra that nobody will even stock a HC3, and in this country even the $799 Sanyo is not dues to be released for months. The A1 is still an enormous price over the HC1 here, not like the massive discounting in the States and Japan. Buying the pal AI or pal HCI at internationally discounted pricing is like $1K to $1.5K price difference from globalmedia.

I wonder who bought all those HC1, that was so immensely successful, and how much more successful it could have been in Pal countries if they had got their act together? I think, one reason, they sell more in the US and Japan, then in many PAL countries, si that they have a higher standard of living then PAL countries but yet, they charge people in the PAL countries a lot more.

All this offering of ten or more consumer models nonsense by companies must drastically bite into profit as it lowers productions runs drastically. The sales of some of these consumer cameras and the prices are laughable. I prefer to see a camera fro a price bracket (3 good models before you hit prosumer).

Why don't they fire people over all this sort of stuff.

Sorry for the irritation, but I hate seeing that stuff.

There is supposed to be other HD models coming out, I confident that the HC1 and AI will eventually be replaced with a capable camera. The HC3 sends the wrong signal (if you look at the threads on it and the new "superior" sensor design you can see why. It is like the HI8 of the HDV world compared to HI8ex, a good compromise format for the cheapest camera at $500, but missing that bit extra. If the HC1 replacement was $1K with a true (not summed line/single field) 24/25/30fps, 25mb/s+ progressive mode (even if it was only 1440*540) and the HC3 was $500, we would have a better balance.


Thanks

Wayne.

Wayne Morellini,

The standards of living in a lot of Pal countries is about the same as the United States because in Portugal for example you see people with expansive computes, big flat screen TVs, satellite channels and kids buying lots of video games that cost about 70 to 90 US each. I sometimes get shock when I see the things that people have but the strong Euro is definitely part of the reason. But you’re right about one thing, the prices are too high when trying to but pal electronics such as video games and camcorders but you still see lots of people walking around with expansive camcorders and no its not just the tourists but the residents themselves.

This has also been bothering me ever since I was a kid because besides America having bigger markets which can allow the prices to be cheaper, it’s still no excuse for companies keeping the prices high. A reason could be because the stores want to keep the prices high as well. Hopefully this all change because I heard the PS3 games from the US will also work in PAL/SECAM countries and vise versa. This should keep the prices the same at least for video games.

I also agree that the HC1 and the A1 will receive true replacements later this year. It seems to me that a lot of camcorder companies are now trying to copy Apple by keeping any new technologies secret until the products are ready to ship.

Usually similar in European Pal countries but usually not as high (though I often see Northern European countries way up there) a list usually turns up in the news every year or so. In most nations, even in third world nations, there are concentrations of well off people, it is more obvious when compared to impoverished rural areas.

I still think it is off, to just get more money off less well to do people because it si possible, and I think that in goods terms the European/Pal markets outweigh the US. In real production line cost terms I think the differences are very small. If some of the Pal cameras were available at the same price as the US models, it would be a case of "I'll go down and buy one tomorrow). It would be very feasible to buy three low cost 3chip Panasonic MiniDV's and sync them together side by side, to make extra wide 720p at a cost much less than a HC1.


Thanks

Wayne.

I think, one reason, they sell more in the US and Japan, then in many PAL countries, si that they have a higher standard of living then PAL countries but yet, they charge people in the PAL countries a lot more.

My experience was different. I only paid about $3200 for my DVX100A in HK about two years ago. That's way cheaper than in US at that time. Anyway, I have left HK for two years already, things might have changed in Asia.

Paul

Was that a PAL camera?

Wayne I'm an aussie overseas, and currency has got something to do with it among other factors; Maybe Sony Australia ordered the cameras from overseas when the AUD was not as strong as it is now, that could be one thing, also because Australia has just above 20 million people and the population of Tokyo and Chiba are well over that, it is hard to keep business up with such profit margins and markets.

One more thing, if they have built models with prices normally seen in Australia there would be no way they would sell a Hi-Def camera just above it, it would eat up their other models. I'm not exusing them, but these could be possible factors.

Smartest thing to do is buy online, B&H have PAL models online, dunno bout HC1 but I know with the XL2 they do.
Goodluck, BTW I bought my GY-HD100 for a good deal here in Japan, then I got curious and looked up the RRP on the JVC Aus website, I nearly Sh!t my self!

Jerome, Hi.

The difference between the same cameras, and particularly the cost difference will be very small. They can be manufactured from most the same parts on the same assembly line a batch at a time, one gets labeled this and a manual and box for that country, and another something else, and it is shipped off. They know their business and how to cut costs to the bone. It is even possible to manufacture one version for all markets, or a number of markets (which does happen with some products in the Consumer Electronics industry) but apart from having to supply a multi-way power plug and a manual in twenty etc languages you don't want to do this because it destroys the ability to charge different prices for different markets to make more profit (as people can start importing it from the cheapest market instead, which is why my speakers can be bought from wholesalers at a lot cheaper cost then the recommended price).

The price of PAL equipment on line tends to be more then NTSC on line, and yes, the people, here are charging too much for the HD100, HVX, and Canon, shudder. the cheaper the camera the less difference you notice, sometimes. The problem is if I buy from overseas and it breaks down, it may have to go back overseas for a warranty repair. We are lucky to have one place in NZ that does it, so it is not too far away, stable country, similar culture, less rorts and same language, for if anything goes wrong. But they charge just enough over the cheapest American providers, and close enough to the Australian price, as to not make it worth it, plus they don't believe in email or talking to customers that much, sign in, sign up, give us your money, and bye bye. Under such conditions, with mechanical devices requiring high maintenance, I prefer to buy locally (and you still have to send it one or two thousand miles :( ).

How much did yours cost? There is a secondhand one here for around $5KAU, but realistically I can't afford to buy it and buy other things, it is sort of thing I would want to replace too quickly.

I was wondering, can you advice me of good places you know of to get cheap cameras in Asia? I am interested in Korean Japanese brands, and also those upcoming HD solid state cameras, like the Sanyo HD1? I might get one of these or a HD1/PDI, while I am waiting for a better camera.

I'm curiouser, is the price of Pal equipment in Asia less then in America and the International discount price?


Thanks for your help.

Wayne.

Just converted the price from Yen to AUD and it works out to be $7,600. Aussie dollar is pretty strong atm so maybe it might have been weaker when I bought it which was in November. Pro Dealers in Japan strictly tells its customers that it is for use in Japan only, because alot of people in other NTSC countries usually go to Japan to get their gear first.

On the other hand you've got Akihabara which is also called the Electric town, with much reason, tourists that want electronics will get anything and everything there, it is the Mecca of electronics. You can get Duty free PAL stuff there easily.

Hope that helps

Thanks fro your help Jemore.

With my Japanese, I would never make it there (I don't know any) :)

Any do mail order?

So the price you paid is Equivalent to nearly $8K. Has it dropped since then?

I wonder, the Japanese HD1/10, is the menu easily resettable to English. Must be some going there cheap.


Wayne.