Hi... I have no experience with camera except professional digital slr... I have a low budget shoot plan for next week and we will not be able to engage a cameraman.

Do you think its realist I can rent the HVX200 by morning, learn it with the manual from 9am to 5pm and shoot at 6-7pm?

in the deal is include;

HVX200
mattebox
tripod
60gig hd
2 p2 cards

Its for a bicycle on greenscreen setup... with slowmotion too.

I have a pc laptop (centrino 1.8ghz) for use dvrack... is dvcpro hd is easy to transfert?
if not we have some G5 at job...

or should I use dvrack for digitize HDV in realtime?

thanks
thierry

well dude, id recomend u download the manual and start reading NOW...

Ive had my DVX100's for over 4 years now and to this day they still surprise me..

I am not sure about...One thing is to know what to do with the differents camera buttons, how to make the white balance, etc.....And another very different is how think in takes, how to shot....how to make the pans.....etc......If it is just to shot a static take...may be you can do that without prob....

I think I will be ok with the composition... all static shot... maybe we will try some pan on shoulders (should I need a spiderbrace?) but its not our priority.

But all the buttons are another story... I will try to find the manual right now and study.

how about leaving the cam on auto mode?

I plan to put the shutter speed at around 100 or 120... for get less motion blur. I wonder too if I can get nice wideangle shot from the lens?! (I have the option to take a wide angle 82mm for the hvx200 for 40$ more)

no auto for great footage:
Learn where and how to find these:

manual white balance
Focus
exposure
shutter
zebras

set the camera before hand to the framerate you'll be shooting and the shutter to your preferred setting (generally 1/48 for 24fps, 1/60 for 30fps). Don't used any of the interlaced modes (60i, 1080i) unless you plan on going to film and your film house requests you do so.

If you're running sound into the camera, do a short test of it to be sure you're getting good sound...use the zebras to help you expose the picture correctly. Don't let your whites blow out if at all possible. Move the camera slowly and smoothly, you'll get better looking footage. If you can rent it for a day before hand, do that and never let it leave your hands, shoot all day to get used to it. On set you want it to feel natural so you're not spending time looking for the controls.

how about leaving the cam on auto mode?

I plan to put the shutter speed at around 100 or 120... for get less motion blur. I wonder too if I can get nice wideangle shot from the lens?! (I have the option to take a wide angle 82mm for the hvx200 for 40$ more)

"Auto" for greenscreen is to be absolutely avoided. Greenscreen demands consistent exposure and color to work properly, and auto-anything will foul that up.

You might not need the wide angle lens as the HVX200 already has a nice wide lens. Also, you will want to get a really good wide angle adapter if you're doing green screen work -- edges are important and cheap glass means lousy edges for mattes.

Good keying software will handle motion blur very nicely so you won't have to get too concerned with that unless you're after a particular effect.

In short -- getting up to speed with that particular camera isn't going to be easy. If you want great results, you'll have to find a way to get familiar enough with it. I've been doing this kind of work for years and I just spent the weekend getting to know just the basics of this camera.

ok... no auto. I swear! but I ear (meaning read) its better to shoot 1080i for greenscreen ntsc down convertion cause you get more definition for your key than 720p... their example look quite convincing..!

haaaaaa I wanna go Hawaii..!

I will get the camera in two days by morning 8h30am and will be shooting by 6pm. I downloaded the manual but cant find the manual for the external HD AJ-PCS060G... im sure its not too complexe.

What im more worrying about now is how to get the footage out of the cam to the computer...

I read I will need P2 Viewer, but on the p2 viewer download page they say to install the p2 drivers from the cam before install it... I dont have such driver...

I will have both G5 and PC at my job but I think they still have FCP HD v4.0

Actually I just need to read the p2 file in After Effects...

Is cineform easy? I think I can get the aspect HD trial for premiere pro... is it enough for be able to convert those p2 files?

I feel I dont have all the puzzle pieces right now... If somebody can explain me the workflow step by step just like if im retard I will be more than happy! like 1- take your firewire cable... 2- stuck it in your cam to pc.. ect...


sorry for all the questions
and thanks for your replys guys! :)

Thierry...

Jarred Land and Barry Green are going to conduct an HVX Boot Camp here in Hawaii on the 18th and 19th of July. That's as good an excuse as any to come out here!

I think you saw the greenscreen example that specified settings for the HVX?
http://www.imageshoppe.com/HVX_bluescreen2.html

I was looking at that, too and it was impressive. That was done with 1080i. And I've seen elsewhere in which 1080i was compared to 720p, and 1080i held more detail.

Also, another good tutorial is by Andrew Kramer:

http://www.creativecow.net/articles/kramer_andrew/colorkey/index.htm

He also sells a tutorial DVD which is well worth the price.

I'm also new to this camera, having gotten mine on Saturday. I found the "on" button five minutes ago... I think Barry mentioned that there's about 80 possible setting combinations on just format and frame rates, plus gamma options, etc. So this is far from a grab-and-go item for the inexperienced.

haha! if only I could... carrying the kids! :) yes, you got it right... it was that example I saw! and I did the test of keying both the layers in the photoshop document... The uncompress one was definitively better and sharper but both became similar downsized to sd. then no problem for my shoot with dvcproHD!

Cole, what do you think about that test? (if you have some time to spend of course!)

zzzZZZmgoing to bed...

shooting which test? I missed something somewhere...sorry.

Cole...

This test: http://www.imageshoppe.com/HVX_bluescreen2.html

The lighting isn't intended to provide realistic results. But what's most important is how detail held up and how he managed to avoid making the edges look artificial.

I had received my brand new XL1s the morning of my step daughters cheerleading competition, charged the betteries on the way, and read the manual while my wife drove. The shoot went off ok. The first thing I learned, was I shoulda got a tripod.

As long as you don't need to do anything too fancy, you should do fine. Just make sure you light the subject and screen evenly.

thanks keith! now I have premiere pro 2 and cineform aspectHD 4.1 installed, all in tryout mode, and I cant get that mxf file to load in premiere pro... damn.. whats wrong?!

I read I will need P2 Viewer, but on the p2 viewer download page they say to install the p2 drivers from the cam before install it... I dont have such driver...

I will have both G5 and PC at my job but I think they still have FCP HD v4.0

Actually I just need to read the p2 file in After Effects...

Is cineform easy? I think I can get the aspect HD trial for premiere pro... is it enough for be able to convert those p2 files?


Thierry, this is pretty complex camera and the workflow is very different than what people are used to. Frankly there is no way that I would put myself in to the position you have. It could have disasterous results. You really need to be on solid ground before you start trying to be creative.

You need to have your workflow figured out and tested ahead of time. Basicaly, the P2 card is inserted into the P2 Store once the card is full. It then transfers and you can reformat the card, so that you may continue to record. The P2 Store will take about an hour to transfer to the Mac once it is full, maybe a little longer on a Mac than a PC as it transfers over USB2.

Your Mac has to be fully updated and be running at least FCP 5.04 with OS at 10.04. You only need the PC and P2 viewer if you want to look at the footage outside of FCP. Be aware that most PC laptops do not have the processor power to look at full HD without dropping frames, I have only seen success with the new round of dual processors.

Once you have transferred all of your files, then you can import them to FCP. Shane Ross has a very nice tutorial elsewhere, that would be worth watching, he also has a blog that has many insights to the workflow on the computer side.

If you really have to do this, work to get the best imaging from the camera and get the files from the camera onto the P2 store and transferred to the computer. Make sure that you keep the folders and files intact. Worry about importing to FCP later. The task of capturing footage ad transferring is enough to your head busy. If you want to check your footage you can do that with the P2 Viewer on the PC and you can use the PC to transfer your files to a hard drive for importing and editing later.

Good Luck,

Jan

wow... thanks Jan for the infos... you are right... everything is complex right now... I feel we still at the begining of the p2 era and the workflow is not yet very solid (too much apps!only drivers should be enough!)

I will pass every hours until the shoot to get all thoses details fix. your help is very precious guys! I will call the renting company and try to get the cam sooner...

I cant get the p2 drivers cause I dont have the serial number... (its not mine!) I will try to get that...

After Effects is not a real time software... I dont need real-time playback. from the description on cineform site, I should be able to run the codec from AE if Aspect HD is installed. Now the only thing I miss is the p2 drivrs and p2 viewer for make cineform work. (I hope!)

I have a mxf sample file for do my test of compatibility...

Sad we only have old version of fcp at job... and system 10.03...

haaaa that leasy tech department! they dont care about creativ people! ;P

thanks for all your help guys! cant wait to hold the camera for real!

why is using this camera, for a single shot, so important to you? why not use a more out-of-the-box solution like a Z1 where it seems like far fewer things can go wrong?

it seems like a fun personal challenge, if your goal is to be personally challenged by a sweeping learning curve with a lot of difficult-to-control variables, but if your goal is simply to get a clean shot of a bike on a greenscreen, isn't there an easier workflow with less possibility for a breakdown?

even if you get this one shot successfully, are you going to have to get it to work with other footages at other frame rates, etc? have you considered the workflow for that?

If you're a fast learner you might be able to pull this off, but I really strongly recommend against it. My brother and I had an HVX200 for a day back in February, and we're still digesting what we learned from that almost four months later. This is a much more complex camera than anything most of us are used to working with, and it could take weeks just to get a good feel for all the different recording modes and what they can do for you. I tell people who are considering using the HVX200 to allow at least a full week of preparation before doing any critical shooting, and that's conservative.

in addition to all thats been said, many people blame the tools they use for the weaknesses which arise from using said tools.

Hi... I have no experience with camera except professional digital slr... I have a low budget shoot plan for next week and we will not be able to engage a cameraman.

Do you think its realist I can rent the HVX200 by morning, learn it with the manual from 9am to 5pm and shoot at 6-7pm?

in the deal is include;

HVX200
mattebox
tripod
60gig hd
2 p2 cards

Its for a bicycle on greenscreen setup... with slowmotion too.

I have a pc laptop (centrino 1.8ghz) for use dvrack... is dvcpro hd is easy to transfert?
if not we have some G5 at job...

or should I use dvrack for digitize HDV in realtime?

thanks
thierry

You are in Montreal?
There are many qualified HVX shooters located there.
You could probably hire one for 1/2 day cheaper
than renting the equipment.
Hire out especially if you have never shot greenscreen much less with the HVX. An HVX shooter can provide you clips on a DVD. My rec is to buy the HVX and learn how to use it before tackling a job like you described.

why is using this camera, for a single shot, so important to you? why not use a more out-of-the-box solution like a Z1 where it seems like far fewer things can go wrong?

it seems like a fun personal challenge, if your goal is to be personally challenged by a sweeping learning curve with a lot of difficult-to-control variables, but if your goal is simply to get a clean shot of a bike on a greenscreen, isn't there an easier workflow with less possibility for a breakdown?

even if you get this one shot successfully, are you going to have to get it to work with other footages at other frame rates, etc? have you considered the workflow for that?

The Z1 (HDV) would be the worst camera for Greenscreen.

no choice anymore... I have to take the hvx200... on the good side, I will get the camera soonner for be able to test it and make the p2 workflow functionnal. Cause I think I have to plug the cam on the computer for be able to download the drivers...

I will get the cam tomorow at 2pm... I will shoot day after tomorow at 6pm...

If I can get a constant aperture in 1080i... I think we should be all right!

For the key, dont worry, its not my first and I will have 4 helper who work usually on post-production set...

We shoot a guy on a professional bicycle for the Tour De France Opening... It will be all silhouette... like the Ipod ads... a lot of backlights should cut the
guy very well.

Tonigh im constructing a rotating platform for make the guy turn when biking... should be lot of fun!



I did few key from the Z1 recently... I think it will be a good performer cause we downconvert the result to sd (edge was poor in HD)... but I hope getting better result from DVCproHD for be able to zoom in the image sometime keeping good quality. I didnt know the Z1 is more user friendly than the HVX200... and they dont have it at the renting shop...

anyway... I guess I will need more help with the cam tomorow!

thanks everybody!

ps: I reaaaaally love my job! ;P

If I can get a constant aperture in 1080i... I think we should be all right!

Tonigh im constructing a rotating platform for make the guy turn when biking... should be lot of fun!

anyway... I guess I will need more help with the cam tomorow!

thanks everybody!

ps: I reaaaaally love my job! ;P

Good luck with the shoot.

By the way, if you're making a turntable in hopes of getting a dramatic shot of the cyclist leaning into a turn while being stationary, it won't work. He has to actually be cutting into a turn to allow him to lean like that.

As the cyclist carves through a turn, centrifugal force is pushing his weight toward the outside of the curve. He shifts his weight toward the inside of the curve to maintain bike balance.

This is a simplified explanation. The cyclist is actually forcing himself away from a straight line. Inertia wants him to continue in one direction, the cyclist is using his tires to force his mass into a different direction, and there's also the technique of leaning the body further over while keeping the bike relatively upright to avoid "dishing out" if the road is wet. I did a lot of riding and even raced one year. Got fourth place after a 45-mile road race -- there was only six racers. One guy was 60 years old and the other guy had two flat tires.

So you'll probably have to tilt the camera and get the cyclist to position himeslf as though he's leaning into the curve.

Take a look at this
http://www.imageshoppe.com/HVX_bluescreen2.html

hi dean, I understand inertia m..maybe!... I actually didnt plan emulating the cyclist turning a corner, but more emulating camera turning around him while going forward on the road... in CG we will replicate a fake France road background turning with him in the same time... the animation will not be so realistic cause we have only 1 weeks and half for deliver the final and lot of bumpers and transitions but the abstraction of all the elements should give us a nice piece of design for an opening. I was annoyed by the fact the bicycle stand is straight up then I will concentrate on close-up for get the look I want... all the far away shot will be done in 3D animation.

Hi Mike! yes... its that article we talked about few post ago... really convincing! thanks for post it! The worst is we have at job a HD digital deck for record but I just cant ask the techniciens to move it for the shoot... I know they will be piss off... and also we have a G5 with HD capture card but the guy who work on didnt did is back-up since long time then is 250gb of raid are pretty full...

then I feel I have to make my way with the P2 workflow... sad but it will be a constructive experience. Im sure I will rent that cam more in the future.

aaaargh... I installed p2 drivers for pc (without hardware plug n the pc), p2 viewer, premiere pro and aspect HD 4.1 tryout and I still cant get the mxf file to import in premiere... unsuported mode message...

???

The Z1 (HDV) would be the worst camera for Greenscreen.

maybe. but i always think of the best camera as the one which you know how to operate. a corollary: the best camera is the one you have ready when something interesting actually happens....

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=69027

someone should be following thierry around with a Z1 documenting his efforts! could be entertaining meta-cinema. "how i learned to stop worrying and love the hvx 200"

Lol..........

aaaargh... I installed p2 drivers for pc (without hardware plug n the pc), p2 viewer, premiere pro and aspect HD 4.1 tryout and I still cant get the mxf file to import in premiere... unsuported mode message...

???

Theirry, Premier Pro does not support P2 which is why you are having a problem. You had said you were going to work in FCP but your FCP needs to be updated. These are not optional ideas. Either you have to work with the systems that work with it or choose a different camera. This is part of what I was alluding to in my prior post.

Best,

jan

Jan, you are right... I just catch this morning I have to convert the footage from p2 to cineform before do anything in premiere... I will have the camera in like 45min... so I will post my result soon.

for B solution, if cineform is not working, we will try to plug the component out of the cam directly to an HD VTR we have inhouse... and trim the footage after on a smoke or a flame...

hope it will work!

thanks!

ok...

1- im able to drag the content folder from the 60gb drive to the pc

2- opening HDlink (cineform software) I can select the videos file and convert them to cineform codec by pressing start. (its quite long)

3- Im able to open the resulting AVI file in premiere and after effects.

question: the resulting AVI is stretch horizontally by 75%... I guess this is due to the native capture and ratio of the HVX200. I make my comp in 1920x1080 and scale x by 150%. is it ok? (there is no 1.5 pixel ratio in After Effects 6.5... maybe in the 7)

but the overall workflow is quite slow on my poor laptop and I cant trim it too on that station... too much stutter on playback. should be better on my dual Xeon.

pfffffffff... what a relieve!

a 27sec file weight 265mb in the cineform codec.

ooops... their is heavy 32pulldown on the AVI file... I have to check that!

just did a slowmotion test yesterday night with splashing water... very very nice! will be usefull when the cyclist take the water glass from a crowd member, splashing a bit, raise it to is face and spill it to is face! yes yes yes!

I hope the water will key well on the green screen!

Did the shoot yesterday night. Everything went nicely! thanks for everybody who helped. I will post pict of the shoot and result in a new thread soon... The cam is awsome and quite easy to use with the manual near in case. Of course I should be able to deliver superior performance with few years of practice but it was a nice first try!

only problem was the component out look broken, only showing the green channel... we had to watch it in composite out... quite soft.

thanks again...

thierry

ooops... their is heavy 32pulldown on the AVI file... I have to check that!

What did you shoot? 720 or 1080?
p, pN, pA??

I know in After Effects you can remove the pulldown.
Not sure about Premiere. Check with the CineForm guys.

no problem anymore with the pulldown... I just had to check the "remove pulldown from p2" option and everythings ok!

so far so good...

I shot both 1080p and 720p 24pa. 720p for slowmotion.

t