Does enybody know the difference between Sennheiser's mkh-416, mkh-60 and mkh-70?
I tried mkh-416 and love the quality it deliveres. However, some rental facilities in NY offer only mkh 60 and 70 models and soon I have to rent one for upcoming film project.
Please give me some feedback if you have tried 60 and 70 for field recording and how are they compared to 416...
Thanks,
Vic

Victor,
The difference between the Sennheiser Models you described are relatively easy to describe.

MKH 416 is a short shotgun good tight pattern, Fairly dramatic fall off off axis. Can be Phantom or 12 Volt AB Power. Very reliable for news and documentary. Not so good for groups of people unless they talk one at a time

MKH 60 is still a shotgun but closer to a Schoeps Hypercardioid pattern. Broader than the the 416 but not as good for longer throws. Better for group coverage becasue the fall off is smoother. Not quite as warm but more forgiving. Not quite as good as a Schoeps but more durable. Phantom Power only I believe

MKH 70 Longer version of the MKH60 for a longer throw. Similar to 816 commpared to 416. Phantom Power only I believe

Originally Sennheiser was going to phase out the 416 with the MKH60 but customer demand won out so they sell both.

Thanks Daniel.
In my short, I'll have very few scenes and in each one no more than two actors talking(one at a time).
I was thinking to place a mic in between them and slightly above, just to keep things easy. I think, it's better solution than to use two lavaliers on each actor and have another mic for location sound only; I'll try to keep things uncomplicated...
I'll appreciate if anybody has any suggestions?

Thanks Daniel.
In my short, I'll have very few scenes and in each one no more than two actors talking(one at a time).
I was thinking to place a mic in between them and slightly above, just to keep things easy. I think, it's better solution than to use two lavaliers on each actor and have another mic for location sound only; I'll try to keep things uncomplicated...
I'll appreciate if anybody has any suggestions?

If you're going to use 1 shotgun to record 2 speakers at once, you'll need to have a boom operator to aim it back and forth. The directivity of a shotgun is narrow enough that with a stationary mic you only have two choices - either one person is on mic and the other is off; or both of them are off-mic. Neither option makes for a good dialog recording. Of course, if you're shooting film-style you'll shoot the scene at least three times, recording each actor's dialog with an over-the-shoulder POV closeup shot from the other actor's position so you only have to worry about getting a good take of the one on-camera actor's dialog for most of the scene.

On the topic of the Sennheiser MKH range, I was just wondering if the 416/60/70 are appropriate for both outdoors and INDOORS shoots?

From what I've been reading over the past month or so, shotguns are simply inappropriate for indoor use. I'm just wondering if this advice is not appropriate for the more highend range of microphones, like the Sennheiser MKH range.

I know Daniel said that the 60 has a "Schoeps Hypercardioid pattern", but having never used a Schoeps microphone before, I don't exactly know what that's refering to.

And finally, if the MKH range are suitable for MOST locations, does that mean you can get away with only purchasing one highend microphone?

Please excuse my ignorance...

again, thanks everybody for responding...
Steve, yes I will be filming over the sholder or other POV shots but I"m thinking to use a Sennheiser shotgun for master shots as well... what would be your suggestion regarding that.
Vic
P.S. Also, what do you guys thinking about AKG's SE 300b with couple different capsules?

...
From what I've been reading over the past month or so, shotguns are simply inappropriate for indoor use. I'm just wondering if this advice is not appropriate for the more highend range of microphones, like the Sennheiser MKH range.

I know Daniel said that the 60 has a "Schoeps Hypercardioid pattern", but having never used a Schoeps microphone before, I don't exactly know what that's refering to.

...

The Schoeps CMC641 hypercardioid is arguably the film industry's standard boom mic for dialog and its sound and pattern has become sort of a comparison reference standard. A typical hyper has a moderately narrow front lobe and a very small, narrow, back lobe at 180 degress. A shotgun typically has a bit narrower and slightly longer front lobe (a bit more "reach") but it has 2 or 4 rather pronounced side lobes at about +/- 120 degrees. The shape of a hyper's pattern does not change much at various frequencies while a shotgun's directivity can be very frequency dependent, in some cases becoming almost omni directional at very low and very high frequencies. At issue is not high end versus low end shotguns but rather the acoustic physics of the way a line gradient mic achieves its directivity.

again, thanks everybody for responding...
Steve, yes I will be filming over the sholder or other POV shots but I"m thinking to use a Sennheiser shotgun for master shots as well... what would be your suggestion regarding that.
Vic
P.S. Also, what do you guys thinking about AKG's SE 300b with couple different capsules?

Haven't used an AKG SE300B "Blueline" series yet myself but I hear very good things about them and am giving the purchase of a kit of them very serious consideration until my budget will sustain Schoeps. Several users I've read compare them very favourably to the Schoeps and use them in risky situations in lieu of their mainstay but expensive CMC641. Nothing is perfect and one downside of the Schoeps is that it's fairly sensitive to moisture but the AKG SE300B/CK93 hyper is much less so and so a number of mixers will substitute the AKG for their Schoeps in very high humidity or moist environments.

I figure a pair of power/preamp modules with a pair each of the omni and cardioid capsules and 1 each of the hyper and figure-8 capsules gives you a flexible kit that can cover a very wide range of both stereo and mono recording situations from booming dialog to stereo music recording to whatever.

...From what I've been reading over the past month or so, shotguns are simply inappropriate for indoor use. I'm just wondering if this advice is not appropriate for the more highend range of microphones, like the Sennheiser MKH range...

The main issue is that in smaller rooms (like any room in a house!) there are lots of reflections of the sound off walls, ceilings and floors. All shotguns tend to be very non-directional for bass and low-mid frequencies. When the lower frequencies bounce off the walls and back to the mic, they will have traveled a greater distance than those coming from whoever is talking - and the mic will pick them up because of that lack of directionality at those freqs.

This leads to a very un-natural sound. If you wanted to read more about this, the audio engineering terms are phase cancellation and comb-effect.

So many productions are now shooting indie-style in real locations like houses, businesses & classrooms, "shotguns are simply inappropriate for indoor use" has become accepted as truth.

Shotguns are used all the time in larger rooms that don't have the issues with reflectivity - hotel ballrooms, theaters, large sound stages, etc. - by pro sound mixers. The real issue is not indoors vs. outdoors, it's reflectivity of bass frequencies in the location. And yes, as Steve wrote, all shotgun-style mics are susceptible to it.

But no mixer goes in blindly and says "hey, it's a big room, my shotgun will work for this scene." Any experienced mixer will be listening to everything and changing mics to get the best sound they can, because even a big room can have troublesome reflections, or might in one area of the room. And a small room may not have this issue, depending on the architecture, and the floor, wall, window and ceiling coverings and furnishings. Sound does some funny things.

This leads to a very un-natural sound. If you wanted to read more about this, the audio engineering terms are phase cancellation and comb-effect.


I call it "sounding hollow". Once you hear it you
really shy away from using shotguns indoors.
I was about ready to sell my AT4073 shotgun
because I had only used it indoors and had never
gotten any decent sound out of it. Then I used it
the 4073 one time outdoors and saw how it really
shined there, so I decided to keep it.

Guys, thanks a lot... lot of usefull information to use.
Vic.
P.S. both AKG Blue Line and, especially,Schoeps cmc641 with it's 20 capsules will be one of my first cosiderations for renting.

Thanks for your answers everyone!

I'm sorry, but I still don't think I completely understand...

From what I've read:

- The MKH 416 is not suitable for "indoors" (and I use the term loosely), due to the nature of short shotguns
- The MKH 60 is suitable indoors, due to its Schoeps CMC641-like hypercardiod pattern
- The MKH 70 is suitable for indoor shoots as it has a similar pattern to the MKH 60, but merely has a slightly longer throw
- The Schoeps CMC641 is a great all-round microphone (ie. can be used successfully indoors and out with appropriate wind protection), in "friendly" conditions; its limitation is that because its engineered so presisely, you have to treat it with the upmost care - it doesn't like damp/humid/high moisture environments

Am I understanding correctly?

The 416 works fine indoors, use a boom operator and keep the mike on target with the actors mouth and the correct distance away.If you remain consistent with those parrameters you should get warm clear and consistant sound.

I have both MKH416s and SE300s, using short hyper-cardioid and shotgun capsules. They are both great for indoors work.

But the MKH416 and the SE300+shotgun need some pointing to the people who are talking for better response. You can choose to point at the middle and compromise with the slightly less directional response.

My choices, in quality order:

1) Use the shotguns with a mic operator.

2) Use a hyper-cardioid capsule, which is much more forgiving.

3) Use a cardioid mic, with a much more open spread. Go closer.

4) Use the shotguns, mid pointed.

5) Use a lapel mic placed between the speakers.

One option will certainly serve your purposes or most purposes.

The 416 works fine indoors, use a boom operator and keep the mike on target with the actors mouth and the correct distance away.If you remain consistent with those parrameters you should get warm clear and consistant sound.

I'd have to disagree, except if by "indoors" you mean an acoustically treated studio or otherwise non-reflective environment like a soundstage or auditorium. In most interior environments such as, say, a typical office, classroom, or residence the 416 and other shotguns sound to my ears like the talent is down in the bottom of a well, indistinct and hollow.

So many productions are now shooting indie-style in real locations like houses, businesses & classrooms, "shotguns are simply inappropriate for indoor use" has become accepted as truth.
My choices, in quality order: 1) Use the shotguns with a mic operator.
Sorry, but now I'm slightly confused!

When you say, "use a shotgun with a boom operator" are you suggesting any shotgun, or those of the higher price range (ie. "professional" mics such as the MKH416)? From what I've read and experienced, it's almost impossible to get good useable sound from cheaper shotguns (such as the ME66) indoors (ie. your average home bedroom).

It is my understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that in general hyper-cardioid microphones are better suited indoors than most shotguns.

Your comments make me think that maybe the answer to my original post is: when dealing with prosumer gear use a hyper indoors; when dealing with professional gear, like the MKH416, a shotgun will work fine.

Maybe I'm just missing the point?!?

..

Your comments make me think that maybe the answer to my original post is: when dealing with prosumer gear use a hyper indoors; when dealing with professional gear, like the MKH416, a shotgun will work fine.

Maybe I'm just missing the point?!?

Chris, the difference is not in quality or pro versus prosumer ... the problem with shotguns comes from the physics of the way all shotguns achieve their directivity. So-called "line-gradient" microphones use a tuned interference tube to cancel out sound arriving from directions other than where the mic is aimed. But that cancellation process is very frequency dependent as the tube has resonances just like an organ pipe or a clarinet. One of the results is that low frequency sound arriving from the sides and rear such as from room reflections are not attentuated anywhere near as much as mid frequencies are . Thus the bass components of the talent's speech in those reflections are recorded almost full strength but slightly delayed from the speech arriving directly, leading to a very unnatural sound. Hypers get their directivity from a different physical principle altogether and don't have anywhere near the same amount of problems with reflections.

Thanks for your reply Steve!

Sorry mate, I was paying attention in your first post, when you said, "at issue is not high end versus low end shotguns but rather the acoustic physics of the way a line gradient mic achieves its directivity" - I promise!

What I can't get my head around is why a MKH416 will apparently work indoors and yet a mic substantially cheaper will sound like crap. Unless, like you say, the MKH416 does sound bad inside and it's all up to a matter of personal opinion; hence the conflicting views.

Thanks for your reply Steve!

Sorry mate, I was paying attention in your first post, when you said, "at issue is not high end versus low end shotguns but rather the acoustic physics of the way a line gradient mic achieves its directivity" - I promise!

What I can't get my head around is why a MKH416 will apparently work indoors and yet a mic substantially cheaper will sound like crap. Unless, like you say, the MKH416 does sound bad inside and it's all up to a matter of personal opinion; hence the conflicting views.

Forum contributor Ty Ford has an excellent little video on his web site showing a 416 and other mics indoors and you can hear the difference first-hand. The 416 is a very high quality mic and doesn't fall apart as completely as less well designed mics might, but when you compare it in a living room with a Schoeps hyper as Ty does you can hear the difference between the two is still dramatic. It's just not as bad as it would be with a less well designed mic.

I'd have to disagree, except if by "indoors" you mean an acoustically treated studio or otherwise non-reflective environment like a soundstage or auditorium. In most interior environments such as, say, a typical office, classroom, or residence the 416 and other shotguns sound to my ears like the talent is down in the bottom of a well, indistinct and hollow.


Certainly not my experience with the 416. It will mostly depend on the mic positioning. All untreated indoor locations will sound reflective, no matter the mic you use.

Sorry, but now I'm slightly confused!

When you say, "use a shotgun with a boom operator" are you suggesting any shotgun, or those of the higher price range (ie. "professional" mics such as the MKH416)? From what I've read and experienced, it's almost impossible to get good useable sound from cheaper shotguns (such as the ME66) indoors (ie. your average home bedroom).

It is my understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that in general hyper-cardioid microphones are better suited indoors than most shotguns.

Your comments make me think that maybe the answer to my original post is: when dealing with prosumer gear use a hyper indoors; when dealing with professional gear, like the MKH416, a shotgun will work fine.

Maybe I'm just missing the point?!?

Using a shotgun mic is quite tricky, because you need the mic to be pointed to the mouths of the people that are speaking. When dialogue is too fast you may even need to use two shotguns: one for every actor, particularly when you can't predict who will talk when.

Short shotguns, and I'd put hyper-cardioids in that family, are less peaky. IMHO the nasty responses on some situations are due to the increased sensitivity of some longer shotguns. But that doesn't mean they can't be used.

The question is not cheaper or expensive, as the ME66 is certainly not cheap. And some expensive mics do not sound tood good either, at least to my ears. I haven't tried the 66 that much, so I can't judge on its sound.

I also tend to prefer using more open mics for indoors location audio, but mostly because I started my career working with them and I like the sound of them. But their reach is not that great, and you need a dead sounding place for them to shine. What you do is get closer to your subject with the mic to compensate.

This changed when I started working with the 416, with its improved directionality. But you still have to stay close to your subjects, as close as the camera framing will allow. Improved directionality doesn't mean that you can stay far away.

Hyper-cardioids are a mix of above, with fuller lower frequencies.

But you certainly need a mic boom operator for any of these mics to shine.

I don't share the opinion that hyper-cardioid microphones are better suited to indoors situations than shotguns. I used them both in both situations and they worked quite well.

A prosumer mic may sound well and a professional mic may sound bad, no matter if it's outdoors or indoors. But there's a reason why the 416 is still being made by Sennheiser: audio quality.

I'm sorry, but I still don't think I completely understand...

From what I've read:

- The MKH 416 is not suitable for "indoors" (and I use the term loosely), due to the nature of short shotguns
- The MKH 60 is suitable indoors, due to its Schoeps CMC641-like hypercardiod pattern
- The MKH 70 is suitable for indoor shoots as it has a similar pattern to the MKH 60, but merely has a slightly longer throw
- The Schoeps CMC641 is a great all-round microphone (ie. can be used successfully indoors and out with appropriate wind protection), in "friendly" conditions; its limitation is that because its engineered so presisely, you have to treat it with the upmost care - it doesn't like damp/humid/high moisture environments

Am I understanding correctly?

So, Chris, I'd have to disagree with your summary. It's not the polar pattern per-se that's the issue, it's the design of the microphone. The 416, MKH 60, and MKH 70 are all interference tube (aka shotgun) design microphones. It's the physics of that design that causes them to sound "hollow" in interiors, and it gets worse the more reflective the room. The Schoeps MK41 capsule (along with many others) is a pressure-gradient design, so it's a different animal. In the MKH series, the MKH 50 is a pressure-gradient design.

There is not a hard and fast rule about indoors and outdoors. If I'm in a run-and-gun environment where there is not time to change mics and I don't know where I'll end up, I'll pick the hyper-cardiod pattern pressure-gradient microphone. The down side of this choice is that I'm giving up some ability to reject unwanted sound from the side of the microphone and it becomes even more important to be close to what I'm trying to record.

Also, I'm a little skeptical of the "Schoeps is susceptable to humidity" line. Maybe it was true at one time, but I have never had any trouble with mine even in high humidity environments. I still treat them very carefully (they're a pretty sizable investment) but they aren't paper dolls.

I'll also throw in a good word for the AKG "blue line" microphones. They must have phantom power, but for mid-range mics, they sound pretty good. There's an interference tube capsule in that line of microphones too, but I don't have any experience with it.

Hope this helps!

I've heard some accounts that the shotgun Sanken
CS3e is an exception and can be used
indoors. Other than that, I don't know any
more about it.
Does anyone know if the Cs3e is an exception
to the indoor hollowness of other shotguns?

I briefly owned a Sanken CS-1 but never did put it
through its paces to comment other than
to say on your average voice it sounded
kind of thin, which is the reason I got
rid of it.

I just spent 4 days as a sound mixer and boom operator. I put an MKH 418s about 12-16" above the mouth of dozens of subjects seated in adjacent chairs in a large motel room at the Disney Dolphin hotel in Florida.

Since we needed 2 mics, I also used an ME66. The client didn't care if the sound matched.

Both mics sounded fine, compared to each other, the 418s sounded richer. I was just using the mid shotgun part of the mic and not the side, by having both xlr's plugged in but the side mic pot turned all the way down.

Editors said the shoots sounded very good. At all times both mics were on fixed booms in Zeppelin suspension mounts but with no cage or furry attached. I adjusted each mic when the couples changed.

Then I taped the current Miss America in the same room, but she was standing so I put the mic very close to the ceiling. Clip was played on a 27" I-mac and sounded fine via the I-mac speakers. I picked up other sounds as well, like the elevator motors and cars moving. Final recordings didn't seem to have that, however.

She was in front of a muslin green screen, and I mentioned that I just wanted to make sure the mic was pointed into her mouth, she did a good job staying put so that happened.

So there are lots of factors. Keeping the mics close to the mouth just out of camera range is important. When I listened to the other channel (other mic which was about 2 feet away and pointed at the other person) via my Sound Devices 302 mixer's headphone output, it didn't sound as good. Thin and a bit tinny.

Eventually I likely will sell the nearly new ME66 and get a 416.

Then an MKH 50.

I'd rather have a 2 MKH 50's than one Schoeps CMC641, at the same cost. Some people might not agree with me however.

Eventually I likely will sell the nearly new ME66 and get a 416.

Personally I would get the new MKH 8060 rather than the old 416 nowadays.



Then an MKH 50.


I think I would consider an MKH 8050 instead nowadays.

This matches the 8060 in sound.

If you insist on the MKH 50s I would consider the MKH 60 instead of the 8060 or 416 as the sound of the 60 is the same as the 50, the only difference being in the directivity.

Just to add that the MKH series mics are all RF condensers, which has the technical consequence that they are pretty much immune to the audible effects of moisture you sometimes get outdoors with other mics. Not that they are waterproof (please don't plunk your MKH in a bucket of water) but they don't suffer from the noise problems caused by humidity in the air, that AF condensers do. Good explanation by forumite John Willett here: http://www.ips.org.uk/files/09_Technology_of_RF_Condenser_Mics.pdf

I just recently took my MKH 60 out in a light drizzle, with only a Rycote Softie on it, stayed out for most of an hour - with no audible ill-effects what so ever. Nearly froze my fingers off, but that's a different story.