I am just wondering if you ever hire a freelance videographer or freelance editor to do some work for you during peak seasons? I am wondering what the going rates are and how you find them?

Many options here:

Try placing an ad on craigslist.org or mandy.com. I believe both sites are free to place ads.

Make sure you meet these people in person first before sending them to work with your clients....for obvious reasons.
Also, make sure you see some of their work and "listen" to their work as well ie the audio....and not the music they put in their demo reel.

As for rates. This all depends on how long you need the cam op and what you are charging the client for your package.

My company pays 250.00 to 300.00 for all day shoots as cam ops w/ camera & sticks only. We supply sound gear. This rate is for a package that is 2k is price.

I know of some reputable companies here in LA that pay cam ops only 100.00 to 150.00 for all day atleast 8 hr shoots, thats too low in my opinion.

I'd rather pay a decent day rate and keep a cam op happy to shoot for you.

As for editing rates.....this is a tuff one. I do not sub editing work but if I did I would pay them for completed work and NOT by the hour.
There's a lot of editors out there that are sllllooooowwwwwww!!!!! and if youre paying hourly, you could end up in the negative. Again...check their previous work.

I would also check some references on the help....since its YOUR name they will be representing.


WHen I places ads for help...I always write something like this in the ad:
when replying to this ad, make sure to put "wedding videographer needed" in the subject line as this is a simple test to make sure you are paying attention to what I wrote.

Point is, you'd be surprised at how many replies I got back without them following this simple step. If they do not pay attention to your ad...how will they liten to your instructions in the field. It sounds sorta stupid but paying attention to details is extremely important....to me anyway, and problably to most as well.

Also...make sure to ask your help if they really enjoy shooting weddings...if there only doing it for the extra money.....that is the kind of help I would do without.

good luck.

We pay $200 to $300 based on experience and equipment being used. I find it amazing how camera operators think they are worth more. Most shoots last 5 to 6 hours. That's between 40 and 50 per hour, is that not enough?

I've paid between $10-$20 an hr, and that is using my equipment. I'd pay better, but good help is so hard to find.

That's a fair rate you pay Jon, I dont understand why anyone would complain about it. I would even think rates in your region are different than California....meaning less but i am guessing?

Camera ops are worth more depending on gear, experience and all that......plus one must consider that they are shooting for a wedding....and not for Network TV. If I needed a guy with a dsr570 package for a corporate shoot...well, he or she will make a better day rate but consider he has a cam package worth 10's of thousands of dollars

I've placed ads and posted our day rates and got emails from people chuckling at a 300.00 day rate to shoot a wedding as basically "B" camera.
It amazes me.....and most of these guys who essentially laughed at the rate or replied with their own imaginary rate work very little in the real world as a camera ops.....many do short films or very low budget films.......and low budget films pay squat/very little if anything.

Needless to say, I would never hire someone who squaked at a 200-300 rate to shoot a wedding.

They can stay home on a sat or sun and watch football.





We pay $200 to $300 based on experience and equipment being used. I find it amazing how camera operators think they are worth more. Most shoots last 5 to 6 hours. That's between 40 and 50 per hour, is that not enough?

Keith, If you ever need help I'm in Boynton Beach. I have 16 years experience in the industry. Everything from local to national tv.
E-mail me at mark@sharkvp.com. if you ever need help on something.

Mark

Thanks Mark, I always look here for help first. I've really been slacking since 2004, but definately looking to picking up more work soon.


You want to talk about torture? I know my new HD100 is on a truck, and it will be here today! Everytime I hear something go by, it sounds just like a UPS truck pulling up... I'm looking out the window like every 30 seconds! Arrrrgh!

Geez guys, your mechanic makes $60 - $80 per hour!

That is true, Jim. But he also has his own tools, and years of experience. But I have also found decent guys, just a bit inexperienced, and willing to learn. They work with me, use my gear, and I show them what I want.

huh???? what mechanic is making 60.00 to 80.00 per hour???

so, what mechanic do you know that is making over 100,000.00 per year, that is airline pilot pay or close to it?

that is way off.




Geez guys, your mechanic makes $60 - $80 per hour!

"huh???? what mechanic is making 60.00 to 80.00 per hour???"

The mechanic that maintains Jim's Lamberghini ;)

even lamborgini mechanics do not make that kind of money.

awww....I know how they make 100k per year, telling the little ol' lady who goes in for an oil change that her transmission needs new high performance thruster valve injector bearings so her engine doesn't blow up and burn her to a crisp;)

all kidding aside.....nice site you have jim.



"huh???? what mechanic is making 60.00 to 80.00 per hour???"

The mechanic that maintains Jim's Lamberghini ;)

To give you all an accurate quote, my neighbor is a chief mechanic and makes $30-$35 per hour. That's $60,000+ a year. So if you're getting $50 -$60 an hour shooting you're doing alright.
Mark

Wait a minute...I just had MY high performance thruster valve injector bearings replaced and I had my muffler bearing greased too! You mean i didn't really need to do that????? ;-()

Don

Thanks Joe.....and I went and changed it! You didn't by chance book a trip did you? We have plenty of openings, but they are filling up fast. Well actually we are open from now till........... Ah come on a book a trip.

http://www.sfgmedia.com/video/leadin.mov I can get you on TV.

You mean you guys don't pay your garage that? I better move off the beach.

Jim

I see what you meant...garage rates, I thought you meant what the mechanic himself makes.
Marilin fishing sure does sound like a good time though:)


Thanks Joe.....and I went and changed it! You didn't by chance book a trip did you? We have plenty of openings, but they are filling up fast. Well actually we are open from now till........... Ah come on a book a trip.

http://www.sfgmedia.com/video/leadin.mov I can get you on TV.

You mean you guys don't pay your garage that? I better move off the beach.

Jim

Anyone who thinks a camera operator that charges $40 per hour makes $80,000 per year is not taking reality into account. All videographers who make ~$80,000 per year and work 40-hour work weeks raise their hand...

If you need a helper, hire a student or buddy who needs an extra $100 and expect minimal performance. Otherwise, $250 for 5 hours of work is not so bad. If an operator supplies their own gear, they are supplying just as much equipment cost as a typical mechanic. I have met car mechanics and videographers. Neither are more highly intelligent or skilled. Both jobs require skill and experience. Nobody thinks twice about $60/hour for plumbers and car mechanics, but they think other trades should get $15/hour? I can do just as good a job fixing a sink as a plumber can do shooting an event video. Why should I get pad 1/4 as much? I can understand this logic coming from customers, but when videographers downgrade their own profession it seems a bit silly.

Marcus- You're definately right about the 40hr work week. Some folks can do it, but most of us are hobbyist/amature, or part time videographers to supplement income. There are the occasional jobs that pop up though... like shooting a ten minute casting interview for $100. Plus I got $8 for the tape!

Now, if I can only line up 8 or 10 of those a week...

The only time I work at shooting 40 hours a week is when I used to do 3 weddings back to back to back which I 100% refuse to do anymore (I'm way too old for that stuff now) or if I do a convention or seminar that runs 3 or 4 days. You can easily do 40 hours in 3 days at a convention/seminar HOWEVER thats 40 hours on the job not actual shoot time. There's always stand around time BUT when bidding on this type of work you have to make allowances in your bid for set up,breakdown, standaround time. So 40 hours on the job (3 days work) may really only be 18-20 hours of tape time, but hey, who's countin'!
Don

Here's another one not paying attention.......who said anything about a camera op who charges 40 bucks an hr makes 80k per year....its nowhere in this thread, read more carefully before you get in an uproar.





Anyone who thinks a camera operator that charges $40 per hour makes $80,000 per year is not taking reality into account. All videographers who make ~$80,000 per year and work 40-hour work weeks raise their hand...

If you need a helper, hire a student or buddy who needs an extra $100 and expect minimal performance. Otherwise, $250 for 5 hours of work is not so bad. If an operator supplies their own gear, they are supplying just as much equipment cost as a typical mechanic. I have met car mechanics and videographers. Neither are more highly intelligent or skilled. Both jobs require skill and experience. Nobody thinks twice about $60/hour for plumbers and car mechanics, but they think other trades should get $15/hour? I can do just as good a job fixing a sink as a plumber can do shooting an event video. Why should I get pad 1/4 as much? I can understand this logic coming from customers, but when videographers downgrade their own profession it seems a bit silly.

Needless to say, I would never hire someone who squaked at a 200-300 rate to shoot a wedding.

They can stay home on a sat or sun and watch football.

I totally agree. The going rate in my town for a experienced wedding videographer is between $200 and $300. IT'S HARD TO FIND GOOD HELP!

Jon

Joe, I believe I was combining posts in my brain that were comparing mechanic rates to videographer rates.

"To give you all an accurate quote, my neighbor is a chief mechanic and makes $30-$35 per hour. That's $60,000+ a year. So if you're getting $50 -$60 an hour shooting you're doing alright."

That thread references the 2,000 hour work-year (50 weeks x 40 hours) giving a $60,000 salary from $30 per hour.

The point of my post was not to roar, but to illustrate that videographers are not like hourly employess, but independant contractors like plumbers and mechanics. The businesses of videography, car repair, and plumbing are trades that require skill and expensive tools. It is not at all unreasonable for a business to charge over $40 per hour, so it should not be seen as odd that a camera operater ask the same.

For some events, a $100 buddy manning a second camera is appropriate. For other jobs, hire a professional and pay professional rates.

For the record, Joe, I would happily work for you all day (well, 12-hours) for your stated typical pay of $250-300. I'll even bring my Lectrosonics wireless. $50 per hour is not outrageous to ask, but a volume discount and freebie hours are also appropriate. That's business. Let me know if you need extra help and are willing to pay the expenses for my commute! :)

I see what you mean Marcus....sometimes what we write on these boards gets confusing and is hard to understand fully...sorry for riding you on that.

WHere are you in HI.? I have a very good friend who lives on the North Shore.
I


Joe, I believe I was combining posts in my brain that were comparing mechanic rates to videographer rates.

"To give you all an accurate quote, my neighbor is a chief mechanic and makes $30-$35 per hour. That's $60,000+ a year. So if you're getting $50 -$60 an hour shooting you're doing alright."

That thread references the 2,000 hour work-year (50 weeks x 40 hours) giving a $60,000 salary from $30 per hour.

The point of my post was not to roar, but to illustrate that videographers are not like hourly employess, but independant contractors like plumbers and mechanics. The businesses of videography, car repair, and plumbing are trades that require skill and expensive tools. It is not at all unreasonable for a business to charge over $40 per hour, so it should not be seen as odd that a camera operater ask the same.

For some events, a $100 buddy manning a second camera is appropriate. For other jobs, hire a professional and pay professional rates.

For the record, Joe, I would happily work for you all day (well, 12-hours) for your stated typical pay of $250-300. I'll even bring my Lectrosonics wireless. $50 per hour is not outrageous to ask, but a volume discount and freebie hours are also appropriate. That's business. Let me know if you need extra help and are willing to pay the expenses for my commute! :)

You all might find the following of interest, from the U.S. Deaprtment of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos091.htm). 2004 is probably the last year for which there is decent data.

"Median annual earnings for television, video, and motion picture camera operators were $37,610 in May 2004. The middle 50 percent earned between $22,640 and $56,400. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $15,730, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $76,100. Median annual earnings were $48,900 in the motion picture and video industries and $29,560 in radio and television broadcasting.

Median annual earnings for film and video editors were $43,590 in May 2004. The middle 50 percent earned between $29,310 and $63,890. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $21,710, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $93,950. Median annual earnings were $44,710 in the motion picture and video industries, which employed the largest numbers of film and video editors.

Many camera operators who work in film or video are freelancers, whose earnings tend to fluctuate each year. Because most freelance camera operators purchase their own equipment, they incur considerable expense acquiring and maintaining cameras and accessories. Some camera operators belong to unions, including the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees and the National Association of Broadcast Employees and Technicians."

Note that fewer than 10% earn more than $80,000 a year and we can assume that these are tops in the profession. For reference, the median U.S. per capita income in 2005 was $34,586 and the median household income was on the order of $44,473. In 2004 the poverty level for a family of four was $18,850.

Assuming a work year of 1,700 hours the median wage of $43,590 works out to $25.64 an hour, so $300 a day is about right for operators with normal profressional experience. It would be fair to pay a kid with a cam rather less.

Sorry, I used the median editor's salary for the camera operator's median salary in the above.

The hourly rate, again assuming 1700 a year, is $22.12 an hour for camera operators, at least in May of 2004. $250-$300 a day is still pretty good.

I fondly remember how affordable things were in 2004...housing and energy prices have nearly doubled here since then. Fortunately, my landlords haven't raised our rent significantly. The median price of a house on this island has now gone up to over $660,000. That's dollars, not yen or pesos. Also, a typical median house around here is not too impressive.

Joe, I live in East Oahu, the opposite side of the island from the North shore. What is known as the North shore is actually the Northwest shore as this island is somewhat diamond (as in playing card symbol) shaped. In my neighborhood, the median price of a house is about $900,000. I think it's time to raise my rates!!

I think what that data shows is that camera operators are not getting rich. Editors seem to make a reasonable living, but editing is kinda boring. Darnit, I really need to start putting money in front of job satisfaction. If we all agree to raise our rates, does that mean we are a price-fixing monopoly? I've always wanted to be a consumer-hostile monopoly!

The U.S. government actually calculates a different poverty wage for Hawaii and Alaska because the cost of living is so much higher (I used to live in Hilo and I remember what prices where in the mid 70s!). In 2004 it was $21,680 for a family of four, in 2006, $23,000 ( http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/06poverty.shtml ).

The money in this business is in the creation and control of intellectual property and not so much in production services -- which are quickly becoming a commodity.

I pay $400.00 for experienced wedding videographer (for a whole wedding day work).But he must have have gear, tapes, and a car:)

Anthony

I'm movin' to Jersey! Aloooooohaaaaa!!! :)

Boy... are you going to be in for a culture shock!

Shlepping gear on the

Shlepping gear on the day after a blizzard is SOOOO much fun ;)...something that just can't be experienced in "Paradise." Stay in HI and raise your rates.

You'all are overlooking part of the freelancer, contract worker wage equation. If you're making a direct comparison to a full-time employee, to net the same take-home pay a freelancer must bill at double to triple the employee's hourly rate. First of all, even if he puts full-time hours into his buiness only a portion of those hours end up as billable time so the hourly rate for those hours also has to cover pay for the non-billable yet working hours. Then there's self-employment social security, health, allowance for vacation and sick time, etc, etc, equipment overhead.

So if the department of labour says a regularly employee cameraman, say at a TV station, is getting $30 to $40 an hour, a freelancer would have to bill at $100 per hour or so to net the same food on the table.

The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statisitics claims that self-employed individuals are accounted for in the their occupational data. That said, it's important to note that the BLS data is gathered by a survey of employers and does rely on statisical estimates to some degree. While the data is not perfect, it comes closer than almost any other public source at getting at industry-wide practices.

Of course this does not mitigate the dilemma for freelancers that Steve points out.

So if the department of labour says a regularly employee cameraman, say at a TV station, is getting $30 to $40 an hour, a freelancer would have to bill at $100 per hour or so to net the same food on the table.

On the bright side, most of these lo/no paying jobs will feed you, give you credit, and a copy! They put the food on the table for you!

We pay $200 to $300 based on experience and equipment being used. I find it amazing how camera operators think they are worth more. Most shoots last 5 to 6 hours. That's between 40 and 50 per hour, is that not enough?

That sounds pretty reasonable IF you are providing the equipment. If the camera op povides his own, then it's also reasonable for him to charge you for equipment rental on top of his operator's compensation at a rate pretty close to what a regular equipment rental house would charge for a day's rental on the same equipment package. So camera op bringing his own XL2 and sticks might run $250 - $350 for a full day for the operator plus another $150 - $250 for rental on the camera.

On the bright side, most of these lo/no paying jobs will feed you, give you credit, and a copy! They put the food on the table for you!

ROFL - Food on the table, that is, only if your wife and kids can live on leftovers from the "craft services" table (ie, the PB&J sandwiches the "producer's" girlfriend slapped together).

"Originally Posted by Jon East
We pay $200 to $300 based on experience and equipment being used. I find it amazing how camera operators think they are worth more. Most shoots last 5 to 6 hours. That's between 40 and 50 per hour, is that not enough?"


This has been a great read. I thought I'd chime in.

When you look at in the larger picture and land that gig for say $300 on a day rate you also need to break this cost down or the COB (cost of doing business)

This is based if you use your own gear, and from my knowledge a 5-6/hr shoot always runs over.

Pay based on a 8/hr day-$300
Minus:
Camera wear: $50.00
Milage: $10
Food: $10
General: $20 this could include things like insurance,permits, etc.
Taxes: $80
______________
Take home $130


I also didn't include invoicing, tape, stock, etc.

So your making about $16 dollars an hour based on a 8 hour day.

At the end of the day things don't look to promising considering how nationwide the cost of everything has gone up.

These rates with rentals also is out of reach IMO. I have never heard nor seen anyone making 500.00 plus for freelancing cam op at weddings.

That sounds pretty reasonable IF you are providing the equipment. If the camera op povides his own, then it's also reasonable for him to charge you for equipment rental on top of his operator's compensation at a rate pretty close to what a regular equipment rental house would charge for a day's rental on the same equipment package. So camera op bringing his own XL2 and sticks might run $250 - $350 for a full day for the operator plus another $150 - $250 for rental on the camera.

These rates with rentals also is out of reach IMO. I have never heard nor seen anyone making 500.00 plus for freelancing cam op at weddings.

So you're saying if you go to an equipment rental house and rent a second camera, they should throw in the operator for free? Yet that's ezactly what you're saying in reverse - you want to hire an operator and get the equipment for free. $150 - $250 per day is reasonable compensation for skilled labour but why should you expect to get several thousands of dollars worth of equipment thrown in with the deal at no charge? Whether you rent your second unit camera from a rental house and then hire someone to run it or hire someone first and expect them to bring their own camera, you still have to pay for the equipment used to complete your job. After all, when you set your own rates, you build in the into the costs the cost of buying, maintaining, and replacing your equipment - why should you expect someone you hire who provides his own gear not to do the same.

Steve, I'm not saying that it is right....its not, but it is real life.....youre average freelancer is not getting the rental rate plus the op rate.....it is not happening.....and it hardly happens in Hollywood where I work a lot as well.
Just because you write it down for folks to read on this board does not mean it is really happening in the real world. I think we agree where the rates should be though...im not in disagreement with that.



So you're saying if you go to an equipment rental house and rent a second camera, they should throw in the operator for free? Yet that's ezactly what you're saying in reverse - you want to hire an operator and get the equipment for free. $150 - $250 per day is reasonable compensation for skilled labour but why should you expect to get several thousands of dollars worth of equipment thrown in with the deal at no charge? Whether you rent your second unit camera from a rental house and then hire someone to run it or hire someone first and expect them to bring their own camera, you still have to pay for the equipment used to complete your job. After all, when you set your own rates, you build in the into the costs the cost of buying, maintaining, and replacing your equipment - why should you expect someone you hire who provides his own gear not to do the same.

Steve, I'm not saying that it is right....its not, but it is real life.....youre average freelancer is not getting the rental rate plus the op rate.....it is not happening.....and it hardly happens in Hollywood where I work a lot as well.
Just because you write it down for folks to read on this board does not mean it is really happening in the real world. I think we agree where the rates should be though...im not in disagreement with that.

I've been following the conversations in the RAMPS board for production sound mixers for quite some time. If you hire a sound persona or boom op and have him bring his personal gear, it's a given that you will be charged equipment rental at a similar rate as if you'd gone to a rental house and rented the same gear yourself.

My point still stands ... why would you expect a freelancer you hire for 2nd camera to operate his business in a less business-like manner that you operate your own? You the sum your rates for the services with your cost for the equipment and so must he, if he's a professional and not just a hobbyist.

Some folks find jobs easier than others. While it might be righteous and only fair to charge what you want for you and your equipment, it is sometimes better to take what you can get. How much will your equipment be making if you don't use it?

Some folks find jobs easier than others. While it might be righteous and only fair to charge what you want for you and your equipment, it is sometimes better to take what you can get. How much will your equipment be making if you don't use it?

True enough, but the original question was how much to offer someone you were hiring. What's fair to offer is based on the same business model you personally use to set the rates you charge your clients. Why stiff a fellow professional by lowballing your offer? You don't hire yourself to your client throwing in the equipment for free - why expect someone you hire to be any different?

True enough, but if that person isn't working, he should be happy to get what he can. I am not saying to screw them over though. Unless you know the person extremely well, it is hard to judge exactly how experienced they are. Would you pay a kid who just got his camcorder last week, like you would somebody that has been doing broadcast work for 15 years?

Why stiff a fellow professional by lowballing your offer? You don't hire yourself to your client throwing in the equipment for free - why expect someone you hire to be any different?

When I got my own equipment (I'm in Montreal, where shooting rates are probably quite a bit lower than in the US), I nearly doubled my rate. The guys I shoot for didn't even bat an eye. To them, that's the way they work, so they expected the same from me.

Steve's on the right track. It's demeaning to expect a fair rate for yourself, but try to lowball the crap out of anyone you hire. Those guys end up going around you to do the weddings themselves for $1000. Then we sit back and complain that they are undercutting everyone else and driving down prices. Well, what goes around comes around.

No offense to anyone in particular...

ok....one last time because this really getting boring.

NOT TOO MANY FOLKS DISAGREE!!!!!!! BUT, its just NOT the real world...ESPECIALLY in WEDDING VIDEOGRAPHY!

now you can keep this thread going and going and going and going like the energizer bunny, but just let it go.









I've been following the conversations in the RAMPS board for production sound mixers for quite some time. If you hire a sound persona or boom op and have him bring his personal gear, it's a given that you will be charged equipment rental at a similar rate as if you'd gone to a rental house and rented the same gear yourself.

My point still stands ... why would you expect a freelancer you hire for 2nd camera to operate his business in a less business-like manner that you operate your own? You the sum your rates for the services with your cost for the equipment and so must he, if he's a professional and not just a hobbyist.

ok....one last time because this really getting boring.

NOT TOO MANY FOLKS DISAGREE!!!!!!! BUT, its just NOT the real world...ESPECIALLY in WEDDING VIDEOGRAPHY!

now you can keep this thread going and going and going and going like the energizer bunny, but just let it go.

It may well be the real world in your experience but remember, since you're the one doing the hiring without compensating the people you hire for the wear and tear on the equipment they bring to your production, your business decisions are what are making it so. If you think the real world should be different, make different choices when deciding what you pay when hiring.

Agreed Steve,

As well, if you pay a better rate, you get better and more reliable shooters, better footage, better videos, more referrals. You can raise the prices of your packages.

It's shortsighted to think only of what you can save that day of the shoot.

Recently the guys I shoot for tried out a new guy who was cheap, not much experience, but they figured, what the hell, he says he knows what he's doing.

Well, he shot the whole wedding with no sound. Thanks god we had backup sound for the ceremony, but the prep and the reception were a write off. The guys who own the studio had to refund the whole package. No chance of referrals from that couple, and a good chance of being badmouthed, and with good reason.

But hey, they saved $100 the day of the shoot, right?

Sorry to keep the thread going, but I'm not bored yet...

It's a good thing they didn't pay him what they were getting paid! This is my point, and that's all. If you are hiring a seasoned, bonafied veteran of video, the rate should reflect it. However, if you are doing all the legwork, and your new hire is unproven to you, be fair in pay, but at labor rates.