Hola all,

I'm currently building out an editing suite and the final part of the equation is getting the most bang for the buck for mastering and printing DVD labels on a fairly small scale (typically between 3-7 disks per project) as initially I won't be running 50 DVD's at a time to require a higher end printing solution. That being said, in all my research it appears that the obvious choices are to go with:

A) The inkjet printer route and print directly onto the blank DVD's with the white printable surface, or

B) The Thermal printer route which prints directly onto the DVD but does so in only one color (typically black).

For those of you using the inkjet method, what are your consumable costs on a per disk print? How many disks can you print before needing to change the ink cartrigdge? Which printer are you using and are you happy with it's output? I've heard lots of stories about ink smudging issues using this method and that won't do for my professional projects if it's really a glaring issue. Does it require a period of drying time before the ink sets or does it always smudge regardless of how long since the disk was originally printed?

What about the thermal printer route? I find several versions of this kind online for about $100-$160. I'd trade the smudging factor for reliabilty and non-smudge if this works well.

As an additional question, what kind of print speed are we talking about for either option?

Thanks

Greg,
I use an Epson R300 on hub-printable media. I'm not 100% sure about cost of consumables per disc, but I'd probably peg it at $0.25US. My wife and I also print other stuff on that printer, so it's not exclusively used for disc printing.

There are optional tankless kits you can get, too, but for 3 to 7 discs/project, it's probably not worth the extra couple hundred. My projects usually run 10 to 15 discs every 6 weeks or so, plus one or two larger ones throughout the year. I buy ink maybe once a quarter or so. Depending on how much other stuff we're printing, I may buy up to 12 cartridges throughout the year.

I've been thinking thermal would be nice, though--something about a cool black design on a glossy finish....

HTH,
Matt

Greg,

I also have the Epson R300 (as well as a Discmakers duplication setup with a much better printer for discs). For the very small runs, the Epson works fine. You do need to be there feeding it, and occasionally the special tray for the discs can take several tries before it feeds in properly, The ink will smudge, even after drying, though it shouldn't be a problem with normal handling. You can buy a sealer from Krylon that's used for art projects and spray the discs after they're printed. Just be careful not to get the spray on the back (recorded) side of the disc. That will dry in about 15-30 minutes and it gives a great look to the discs as well as elinating any smudging issues. So there are some drawbacks, but for the very small runs I found it workable.

That said, I love the Discmakers setup. I let my robot do the work for me now, and the printer actually does a better job. I haven't figured out an exact cost-per-disc of the printers, either, but I would also estimate somewhere about $.25 each. Actually this may inspire me to figure out what it does cost me so I can revise pricing accordingly.

Have Fun!

Rob

P.S. I notice you are from Louisville. I grew up in Elizabethtown and will be coming through Louisville in August to visit the area for the first time in 25 years. Looking forward to being back in KY for a few days.

I use the Epson R200, and cheaper cartriges off of ebay. No problems and it does a great job. I think I paid $88.00 for the printer with ink cartriges from B.J.'s, but they are probably out of production now. R300 will be fine.

Mike

Another Epson user here, but I had no choice, so consider me a hostile user. I needed more than just a disk printer, so I got a RX700 all in one unit. Nice thing about it is the individual color tanks. I hate having to replace a cartridge with 3 colors, just because one ran out sooner.

I used a Casio thermal printer briefly before I got an Epson R200 and then an R300. For personal use the simple thermal printers might be okay, but for anything professional get the Epsons so you can do full-color printing. Generic ink cartridges usually work well and are much cheaper than the Epson ink. Sometimes I have to reseat a generic cartridge when the printer has trouble recognizing it, but that's a minor nuisance.

Under *no circumstances* should you use stick-on paper labels for DVDs: these WILL cause playback problems.

I actually used the Epson 200 or 300 (not there to look at actual model) on a project to print over 130 disks. It was a full color disc. I also have a 5 disk burner. The printing for the first 100 took about 4 hours, which I did off my laptop, while I was working on another project on my main system. Client was extremely happy with result.

Off course, you left one other possible label method, printable stick on labels, using something like CD Stomper.

Greg,

I am also looking into printable media for a few projects I am doing and thought you might want to consider a Lightscribe DVD burner. If you dont know much about them you can go to www.lightscribe.com and look at what they can do. Briefly--They burn a normal DVD-R, DVD+R and CDRon he media side, then when they are finished burning your content, you take the DVD out of the burner and flip it upside down and burn the image you have designed onto the face of the DVD but only in black or grey scale. I have researched burners and found them on Amazon for less than $150 for a nice Lacie and the media runs roughly .60 cents a piece in a spindle of 100. This may not be your best bet, especially if you are looking to print color and the cost is a little higher than the printer option but without the smudging. But if you are doing a small run of DVD's or CD's this may be a viable option. I have not experimented with this yet, but I do have friends with these burners and they like them, although they say they can be a bit slower. Just take a look at the website and read the FAQ and look at the examples.

Tom

Greg,

but I do have friends with these burners and they like them, although they say they can be a bit slower. Just take a look at the website and read the FAQ and look at the examples.

Tom


According to website, you could be spending up to 50 minutes to label a disk.

According to website, you could be spending up to 50 minutes to label a disk.


Yes I read that too.....Asking around to my friends using this it really depends on the amount of detail you have in your label. I did say that is was slow....LOL, although 50 minutes would be beyond excessive. Talking with some people I have heard that if you keep it to your logo and normal writing it is not too bad, a few minutes. Again I do not own one as of yet, I would borrow my friends external one to test out before I bought one anyways but I have seen discs labeled this way and they look pretty good. No smudging, no white label. I myself would use Discmakers if I had a bunch to run, but this may work if its a small run. Just wanted to let everyone know of this option as well.

Tom

Thanks for all the helpful replies. I think I'm going to go the Epson route for the time being. I might also pickup a thermal one just for kicks since it's not that expensive and I do like the single black color.

Rob, gimme a shout when you're in town and if I'm free I'll give ya the quick and dirty tour. Alot has changed in 25 years. I mean, ALOT.

Thanks again,

I might also pickup a thermal one just for kicks since it's not that expensive and I do like the single black color. ,

Greg,

I saw one of those receintly, and I though it looked kinda neat, but I think you have to buy and use special thermo discs, and I would bet they are more expensive. White blanks have been around a long time and the prices are very reasonable. Check that out before you buy, and also the Epson would do black and white or shades of gray I you want to look at it that way.

Mike

Even the Lightscribe people tend to downplay it a little bit. Their working slogan appears to be "It's better than a Sharpie!" I've heard more than one of them say that exact thing . . .

Heh, lightscribe was never really an option because I've heard nothing terribly good about them. I will say that newegg has a really nice deal on a lightscribe Samsung drive for under 40 bucks so I bought 3 so I can start building a burning tower but definitely not for the printing. Think I'm going to get the Epson R340 as it seems to get good reviews and the price is right.

Cheers

I will have to add that I use an Epson R800 which costs a little more and the ink does too but the ink is more smudge resident and with the new Primera AguaGuard DVD/CD I have a hard time trying to get them to smudge when I try and I have tried. For costs, the best I can figure it cost me around 50 cents per DVD/CD and jacket cover plus the printer is also an excellent photo printer.

As for LightScribe, I have one and gave up on it as it takes about 15-20 minutes per disk and then only one color and not that impressive in my option.

I will have to add that I use an Epson R800 which costs a little more and the ink does too but the ink is more smudge resident and with the new Primera AguaGuard DVD/CD I have a hard time trying to get them to smudge when I try and I have tried. For costs, the best I can figure it cost me around 50 cents per DVD/CD and jacket cover plus the printer is also an excellent photo printer.

As for LightScribe, I have one and gave up on it as it takes about 15-20 minutes per disk and then only one color and not that impressive in my option.

Where are you getting the primera aquaguard disks because on the Primera site and just about everywhere else I've looked they cost a buck a piece in the 45 pack? So that means you're spending well over a buck a disk. Ouch.

Cheers

I use some Fuji Disks from Walmart and came out with a pretty good result.

I have to purchase my from the Primera store as I could not fine an alternative source. When I said 50 cents per disk I was refering to ink usage not DVD/CD media costs or jacket cover paper.

Ah ok. That makes sense. I'm shooting for no more than a buck a pop total.

Cheers

Off course, you left one other possible label method, printable stick on labels, using something like CD Stomper.


Not really. Better not to use that method. A stickable label will unbalance the disk and cause lots of errors to be corrected in playback.

Tha's why on-disk printing has become the norm.

I pulled the trigger on the Epson Stylus Photo R340 and it more than lives up to my needs and expectations. In fact, I'd say it blows them away. Short of the really expensive screen printing method, I'd say to 90% of the population this would pass for a much higher quality and costly DVD label. Thanks for everyone's input.

Plus, to test the smudge factor, I rubbed my thumb across it 5 minutes after it printed and could see no discernible smudging which is nice and if only keeping it from getting wet is the downfall to smudging then we're in business cause that ought to be a rare event for most folks. Color me happy. :)

Cheers

Not really. Better not to use that method. A stickable label will unbalance the disk and cause lots of errors to be corrected in playback.

Tha's why on-disk printing has become the norm.

I wouldn't agree with that. I've used glossy stick on labels for 100's of DVD's, they all played no problem and I haven't had any complaints.

It is, without a doubt, one of the worst products ever made. Takes forever to print and you get a nearly unreadable, low-contrast image that is all but useless. Sharpie should sue HP or whoever invented Lightscribe. I'll take the Sharpie anyday.

Not really. Better not to use that method. A stickable label will unbalance the disk and cause lots of errors to be corrected in playback.

Tha's why on-disk printing has become the norm.

Carlos were you trying to apply the label without the applicator like Stomper has. I can see where it might go wrong if you were trying to eyeball it... but the Stomper centers it pretty well.

I do like the printables, but the Stomper system has also worked for me.

Carlos were you trying to apply the label without the applicator like Stomper has. I can see where it might go wrong if you were trying to eyeball it... but the Stomper centers it pretty well.

I used CD Stomper labels for a while when I first started making DVDs, and after a few months I had customers start complaining that their discs weren't playing reliably. With at least one customer I was able to see that the labels were starting to peel off the discs, and that was the most logical explanation for why the discs had stopped working. Since I stopped using press-on labels and switched to printable DVDs, I've yet to have a disc go bad like those early ones did. Conclusion: it doesn't make sense to use stick-on labels when printable DVDs are easy and inexpensive to produce.

For everyone using the Epson printers, go to RIMA.com. You can buy a set of cartridges for $18 and they work fine on my R300.

Conclusion: it doesn't make sense to use stick-on labels when printable DVDs are easy and inexpensive to produce.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I never even thought about printing direct to disk until I read this thread, and I definitely want to make the switch to printing direct to disk. So with something like the Epson R800, it prints full color with a high gloss finish?

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I never even thought about printing direct to disk until I read this thread, and I definitely want to make the switch to printing direct to disk. So with something like the Epson R800, it prints full color with a high gloss finish?

It does do a glossy finish but I'm not sure it's worth the extra cash for that printer versus the R340. Especially since the R340 is 130.00 at Staples right now. Glossy disks won't make you anymore money per project so why spend the extra cash? What ends up happening, is your client opens the disk, takes a look at the label, thinks it's really nice looking, puts it into the player and that's the last time they really consider the quality of the label and whether or not it's glossy probably isn't in their mindset. Now, if you want to offer glossy printing at a premium, then by all means try it. But I'm not sure the recordable/printable media really supports the glossy inks so you might want to check on that.

Just a thought.

Cheers

I can tell you that I use an Epson R800 and it will not print a glossy image on standard matte finish DVD/CD. If you think about it to get glossy prints you must use special photo paper which has a glossy coating. Most all printable DVD/CD have a matte surface to them but Primera has some new "TuffCoat Photo Quality Media" at about $1 per disk (have not tried them so I don't know for sure). To put a gloss finish on a matte printable DVD/CD you would have to get something like Primera's Accent Disc Laminator that puts a thin glossy film over your printed DVD/CD and also makes them waterproof.

Glossy disks won't make you anymore money per project so why spend the extra cash? What ends up happening, is your client opens the disk, takes a look at the label, thinks it's really nice looking, puts it into the player and that's the last time they really consider the quality of the label and whether or not it's glossy probably isn't in their mindset.


Greg, don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're totally under-estimating the value that a finished product has to a client. I have produced many corporate videos, and we work to try and offer the highest quality product that we can reasonably afford. About 4 years ago we switched from using matte finish labels to glossy labels, and clients reaction was very positive. When finishing off a project that the client is paying $5000 for, it sure doesn't hurt to hand them a professional looking DVD, with case, cover, and a nice glossy label. Most of my clients actually have remarked on the label quality with comments like "wow, that looks great!" or "how did you get such a good print job on the DVD?". They sure do seem to notice. While you might not be saying to the client "you owe me 50 cents more for each disk because of the nice label I put on there", a high quality product is a statement that you're professional. Its like handing someone a business card that you printed off on your computer. It won't make you any more money to get them professionally printed, but it does make an impression. It the little details that count.

It does do a glossy finish but I'm not sure it's worth the extra cash for that printer versus the R340. Especially since the R340 is 130.00 at Staples right now. Glossy disks won't make you anymore money per project so why spend the extra cash? What ends up happening, is your client opens the disk, takes a look at the label, thinks it's really nice looking, puts it into the player and that's the last time they really consider the quality of the label and whether or not it's glossy probably isn't in their mindset. Now, if you want to offer glossy printing at a premium, then by all means try it. But I'm not sure the recordable/printable media really supports the glossy inks so you might want to check on that.

Just a thought.

Cheers
That's true to an extent. But when you get cheap, and the labeling is coming off their disk, you'll certainly be remembered. Not in a pleasant manner either. A little more effort will reap you bigger rewards down the road.

Greg, don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're totally under-estimating the value that a finished product has to a client. I have produced many corporate videos, and we work to try and offer the highest quality product that we can reasonably afford. About 4 years ago we switched from using matte finish labels to glossy labels, and clients reaction was very positive. When finishing off a project that the client is paying $5000 for, it sure doesn't hurt to hand them a professional looking DVD, with case, cover, and a nice glossy label. Most of my clients actually have remarked on the label quality with comments like "wow, that looks great!" or "how did you get such a good print job on the DVD?". They sure do seem to notice. While you might not be saying to the client "you owe me 50 cents more for each disk because of the nice label I put on there", a high quality product is a statement that you're professional. Its like handing someone a business card that you printed off on your computer. It won't make you any more money to get them professionally printed, but it does make an impression. It the little details that count.


I have to say I agree that you want to make sure you're offering a high quality product and my point is that glossy might be shiny but it's not by virtue of the gloss somehow more professional looking. If that were the case, the studios would be doing glossy disks and they're not. I also don't think you can somehow compare the regular inkjet printed disks as being unprofessional like your business card scenario versus the "professional" glossy. I don't buy that argument for one second and neither do my customers. I'm not saying that you shouldn't offer it as an additional option but it certainly doesn't somehow equate to your business card example.

Hand writing your labels would be unprofessional. Using the printable inkjet non-glossy method is professional as is using the glossy.

I would consider the layout and design much more important in conveying professional quality because a crappy design on a shiny, glossy disk is still a crappy design that screams amateur and unprofessional.

That's true to an extent. But when you get cheap, and the labeling is coming off their disk, you'll certainly be remembered. Not in a pleasant manner either. A little more effort will reap you bigger rewards down the road.

I think there's some crossed up communication here because I'm not talking about using the stick on labels. I'm simply saying the matte white printable DVD's are more than acceptable. I definitely don't think using the stick on labels is effective for most applications from a professional point of view.

Just my 2 cents. Your mileage may vary.

Cheers

Just to clarify, the labels I use are the stick on type. We order them on-line. They come with a warning, and that is, once you start to apply the label, it won't come off. It's quite true, and as the warning says, to get it off you'd damage the disk. We haven't had any reports of labels coming off, and the finish, as I mentioned before, is really slick looking, clients like it a lot.

Keith, I don't think Greg is talking about using labels at all, so the comment about cheap labels coming off should have been directed to me, not him. And as I mentioned above, the labels we use are excellent.

Greg, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't know why you start talking about "crappy designs on shiny labels" and the way you're saying how you would consider the layout and design more important makes it seem as if I'm saying its not. All of our art work is done by a top of the line graphic designer, so I'm not sure what you're on about, this thread was about label quality.
I still stand behind what I said in my earlier post, wether you "buy" it or not. To me, what you're saying is why go the extra mile when you don't have to. I always try to offer the customer the best product I can with their budget. Spending fifty cents more on a disc is worth it, if its going to make the product look that much better. I've seen samples of the Epson printed disk, and I wasn't particulary impressed. I guess it may be personal preference. Its a very different look from the silk screened DVDs that Hollywood puts out. I know that by offering clients a very polished, finished product, I've been able to make money from duplication orders on top of the money made from the production, so it works for me. If you ever get a chance to check out Toshiba's thermal printer, do so. If you don't see the difference in quality between something like that and the Epson, then I think its just to subjective of an issue.
Cheers.

Actually, the gloss finish is supposed to help keep the finish from fading, smudging, and to repel moisture. So, if applying the gloss helps prolong the ink, ultimately, it is worth it.

As for your stick on labels, I stopped using those years ago, in favor of a sharpie. They do peel off, especially if it sits in the car for any length of time. The only time they don't seem to want to come off for me, is when I applied it slightly off center. Now, I believe there is a different type of stick on, which is more like a vinyl instead of paper. This might be a different story all together.

Keith, you can buy stick on labels that won't peel off. We've used them for years, and the labels stay on just fine. If you just by a standard pack at the Office supply store, then you may very well have issues. There are places on-line that offer a little more expensive, high quality gloss labels that wont peel.

Cal, as they say in Missouri, Show Me ;) Seriously, I looked for a while, and all I could ever find were the WalMart/Staples/Office Max variety of stick ons. I hated them with a passion! Kind of moot for me to be looking at them now, but I am curious as to what you have.

I not sure who the company was that we bought our last order from, but this is pretty much the same thing:

http://www.planetlabel.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/11_21_62_197/products_id/240?osCsid=e7848ea703a7ec98602c882017092fab

You're paying 17 cents a label, so you could probably find cheaper, but the price sounds about right for the quality. What we looked for was the description "permanent adhesive". I'll try to find out where we got the last batch from, because they worked very well and we're needing to re-order more anyways. Hope this helps.

For what it's worth, we use the Primera Pro to burn and print and it does a nice job. We use cheap inkjet writable discs and have had no problems with smearing. However, I haven't done any extensive smudge-testing. FYI.

http://www.primera.com/bravopro_auto_printer_pricing.html

Does anyone here have an Epson R800 and like it?

I wouldnt mind getting one of these if it actually does apply some kind of clear coat to the disk to protect it from smudging. I have the epson r300 and I get complaints all the time about the ink smearing. Even though the manual feeding of the discs is a pain, I find the picture quality to be remarkable and I do like the individual inks. I have tried spraying acrylic to the dics but its way too much work and a real mess.

So, does this thing protect the disk or should I just buy a primera accent?

Ink smudging can be a real problem with some disc printers, but I haven't tried the Epson 800. I went to two different stores, no samples, no way to test the unit other than to buy it, but I would like to know what the quality is like.
I went to NAB in 2005, and checked out a lot of different systems for printing to disc. One was this really silvery kind of finish, full color, but all the colors had a kind of metallic look to them. Just a bit of pressure would pull the ink right off the disc, so I wasn't interested.
Now, for a complete over-kill end-game solution, TEAC offers their "Auto-Publisher System" (burner and printer in one). The quality is the best I've ever seen, even professionally duplicated/silk screened discs don't look any better, and the ink won't smudge at all. Great, but its a $9500 unit, and costs $.50 a disc to print. Probably too much money for most of us, but wouldn't you just love to see that robotic arm working away?

http://www.cdrecordingsoftware.com/DVDPUBLISHER2.html

I have an R800 and only use it on photographic paper. We produce thousands of CD-Rs a month and I use a Rimage thermal printer on silver CDs. Before we got the Rimage, I actually had one customer threaten to sue me in small claims court if I did not refund his money because his ink jet printed CD were smearing. Rimage now makes a color printer that is scratch and water proof. I will probably purchase one of these next.

We mostly seem to be talking about Epson printers, and I would assume that they would use basically the same inks.

I have the Epson R200, which I like, and I have never had any ink smearing problems. Perhaps what we need to look at are the disks we use. I do use the matte finish. Maybe part of the problem is any gloss finish disks. That does make sense, as they have less for inks to adhere to.

Just a thought.

Mike

We mostly seem to be talking about Epson printers, and I would assume that they would use basically the same inks.

I have the Epson R200, which I like, and I have never had any ink smearing problems. Perhaps what we need to look at are the disks we use. I do use the matte finish. Maybe part of the problem is any gloss finish disks. That does make sense, as they have less for inks to adhere to.

Just a thought.

Mike

I had one sitting on my desk last night when I read that post, and gave it the old spit test, rubbing it with my finger. It was a matte finish with a photo on top-- a FUJI printable disk, printed with the Epson 300. It smeared a bit. So they are not completely water proof.

Ink jet ink is really bad when it comes in contact with moisture, and I don't think it matters what type of surface you print on. There are other threads which gloss over using clear paint to seal the disk.

I had one sitting on my desk last night when I read that post, and gave it the old spit test, rubbing it with my finger. It was a matte finish with a photo on top-- a FUJI printable disk, printed with the Epson 300. It smeared a bit. So they are not completely water proof.

They will not be completely waterproof. Commercial CD's DVD's are silk screened, which is a totally different process, and involves very different inks, and a drying process.

Personally, unless I have touched mine before they have completely dried, I have never had a problem. Printed a fresh one the other day, and wanted to put it in a sleave right away, so I hit it with the old hair drier and that worked great!

I guess the bottom line is that if you want perfection, you have to pay for it.

Mike

I agree, Mike. The particular disk I am talking about was printed about 3 months ago, the smear wasn't complete, but it did degrade the image. Of course, I guess my spit could have something to do with it :)

The Epson printing is great for my purposes. However, if you are going to wash the disc in water, there may be degradation of the image. I sometimes have to wash disks I get from Netflix, and I can see that might be problem with the Epson printed disks.

Have any of you guys had good luck with primera or similar inkjet printers?

I am just looking for a cost effective solution that will print more durable copies then the r300. Even months after one of my disks is printed, the surface is still pretty virgin and all it takes is clammy hands to smudge it.

I am not going to dump $3000 in a laminator but I am thinking about one of these dup/printer systems if the ink is more durable then my current system. I am even considering thermal printing. Primera produces inkjet printable disks called TuffCoat that are advertised as being water resistant. I have no idea how something like that works but I would be willing to give it a try if it was truly water resistant.

However, I have heard some bad things about the primera printers. This one from microboards looks perfect: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=440119&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

Just in case Chris, I wouldn't spit on your car to try and clean off any bugs :)

Just in case Chris, I wouldn't spit on your car to try and clean off any bugs :)

Maybe I can bottle it and sell it as a solvent.... :)

Maybe I can bottle it and sell it as a solvent.... :)

I think I have a couple of older disks, so I will try a test with water. Saliva is very different from plain water. It has digestive juices and enzymes.

I'll check it out.

Mike