If you read the Oade website, mods and parts are chosen "by ear".... Whos Ear? I would like to have documentation to go along with any modification, wouldn't you??


Doug Oade will never say what he is using. When he replaces ICs, he makes sure that you cannot make out what part he is substituting. That's just they way he is. He doesn't want to let the cat out of the bag, so to speak, about what he is doing to the unit.

Wayne

I am wondering, when comparing recording in 16bit 44.1KHz, has anyone noticed a big quality difference between the Edirol-R09, a minidisc recorder like the MZRH1, or something cheap like the XtremeMac MicroMemo?

I'd love to save $300-$400 and not have to buy an Edirol or MZRH1 if I can get the same kind of quality out of a MicroMemo.

I have high quality mics, so I guess what I'm wondering is how comparable the pre-amp quality is across these products. Anyone have any advice?

My immediate budget is more in the $300 - $400 range

That limits your choices quite a bit.

I bought a Zoom H4 last year, and despite a few limitations, it's a pretty good unit for the price.

I built an 6 C-cell external battery pack for it for $10, which runs the H4 and powers one 48v phantom mic for 28 hours.

For a little more than some of these mods you could get the Marantz PMD-670, which has 5dB better Signal-to-Noise Ratio.

I owned a PMD-670 for 2 years, and just sold it last month. I would not recommend this unit for any type of ENG/EFP work because of it's noisy pre-amps, and fairly awkward control system.

the mods don't specify what the end result Signal-to-Noise Ratio is... whould you fathom a guess?

There are lots of recording samples using these units on the taperssection.com website. My guess is that you would probably be looking at a true SN ratio of 70+ dB from one of these modded units.

My Marantz PMD-670 had a true SN ratio of 50 dB using it's pre-amps powering a 48v mic, and 65 db using the pre-amp from a Sound Devices MM-1 unit. ( the Zoom H4 does slightly better in the same situation )

Right now I get by with the Zoom H4, while I save to buy a Sound Devices 702 recorder. ( true SN ratio 100+ dB )

Originally I was looking at getting a Tascam HD-P2, which has a true SN ratio of 90+ dB, but I also want something small, so I am waiting until I can afford the SD 702. ( I might even go for the 702T model, so I can connect a digital slate to it )

Right now I get by with the Zoom H4, while I save to buy a Sound Devices 702 recorder. ( true SN ratio 100+ dB )

Originally I was looking at getting a Tascam HD-P2, which has a true SN ratio of 90+ dB, but I also want something small, so I am waiting until I can afford the SD 702. ( I might even go for the 702T model, so I can connect a digital slate to it )

Hello again Guy,

Well you have been extremely helpful as has everyone else.

I think I am going to wait for the next gig and then go for the HD-P2. From everything that I have read, it provides a great value and quiet preamps.

In the short term (today or tomarrow) I think that I'll get a portable, battery operated mic preamp to boost my line level.

Correct me if I am wrong (I am no audio engineer) if I use a good mic preamp to boost my line input, I can lower the gain on my camera to below the "Hiss Floor" and this should provide for a very clean recording and maybe a fatter sound.

A preamp should be a lot quieter... True?

Any recommendations?

Thanks again!!!!!

Correct me if I am wrong (I am no audio engineer) if I use a good mic preamp to boost my line input, I can lower the gain on my camera to below the "Hiss Floor" and this should provide for a very clean recording and maybe a fatter sound.

A preamp should be a lot quieter... True?

Anthony: You are correct. If you place a pre-amp in the circuit that has a low SNR (signal-to-noise-ratio), You can raise the sound of the microphone and lower the amplification on the camera. However, just be aware that every device has noise, the noise is an additive quantity. If you have a noisy signal going into the pre-amp (high self-noise on the microphone), that noise along with the desired audio are both increased in the pre-amp. If the pre-amp has a high noise level, then that noise is added to the signal. What you end up with before you put it into your camera is noisy, then add in the camera noise... anyhow, you get the picture.

But generally as a rule, you want to run the hottest signal you can into the camera without going over 0 dB. One of the advantages of the older analog mixers/pre-amps was that you could go over 0 dB and not destroy your signal. In the digital realm this isn't true. You go over 0 dB and you get those nasty digital pops that are nearly impossible (if not totally impossible) to get rid of in post.

Good luck!

Wayne

I think I am going to wait for the next gig and then go for the HD-P2. From everything that I have read, it provides a great value and quiet preamps.

I've rented it a few times, and was amazed how much better it was than my Marantz PMD-670.
( I've heard that the PMD-671 has fixed many of the problems of the PMD-670 )

In the short term (today or tomarrow) I think that I'll get a portable, battery operated mic preamp to boost my line level.

This is what I bought a Sound Devices MM-1 pre-amp for. ( it's also a good boom-op pre-amp )

if I use a good mic preamp to boost my line input, I can lower the gain on my camera to below the "Hiss Floor" and this should provide for a very clean recording and maybe a fatter sound.

Yes. Try to work at line-levels if you can, provided your camera can accept a line-in signal.

Any recommendations?

The Sound Devices MM-1 pre-amp I mentioned above would be my first pick if you need to keep to a limited budget. At some point I plan on buying a Sound Devices 302 mixer, but right now I can't afford the extra expense.

I bought a Marantz 660 because I wanted a small flash recorder, but it was way too noisy and I sent it back and got the M-Audio Microtrak, which is fine for my purposes, though it has 1/4" phono jacks instead of XLR (at least it's not 1/8" mini). I also checked out the Tascam HD P2 and really like it but didn't need that much deck. I don't think you can go wrong with that one.

Ar great risk of beating this thread to death, I will mention I used the new ZOOM h2 for the first time last weekend as a backup to the camera audio while filming a jazz quartet in a club.
Just using the built in mic with the 90 degree spread at approx. 10 feet from the stage, the audio was fantastic. The sound man, and two of the musicians (discriminating ears) were impressed. Very easy to operate and at an affordable price point.

jon

Thanks for the reply David. What small recording unit are you looking at? [...] I'm currently considering the Zoom H4 as a replacement for my dead as a doornail Microtrack, however, I'm really liking this recording straight to the laptop business I've been doing as an alternative, but alas, I'm going to need something small and portable. The H4 is a strong contender, I like the XLR inputs. And unlike the Microtrack, it runs on two AA batteries, much better design choice than the *&^%^$ Lithium-Ion battery built into the Microtrack.

Hey Guys, Thanks Again!!

You have been so helpful to me. I really appreciate being able to access your great knowledge and practical experience!

AM

I'm currently considering the Zoom H4 as a replacement for my dead as a doornail Microtrack [...] As a follow up, I was able to resurrect my MicroTrack (it was a combination of a bad USB/charge cable and the battery getting so low the MicroTrack would not start-up without a charge, but the USB cable was bad). Once again the culprit turns out to be a cable, and I know to check cables, so silly me.

Now that the MicroTrack is once again working, I still hate the idea of an internal LiIon battery that requires a $75 replacement after reaching the limit of charge-recharge cycles that a LiIon battery is good for, but in the end the new MicroTrack II is a strong contender, they might not have resolved the battery issue, but they added a good limiter to the device and true 48V phantom power, so two out of the three of the "problems" in the design have been eliminated. So in spite of the LiIon battery issue, I have to say that for size, price/performance, and versatility, the MicroTrack is a strong contender in the small digital recorder category. Especially since I'm often close to a source of power, so I most often use it powered by AC or a USB port (pretty handy, since that allows all sorts of external powering options).

Cool, I'm happy it's working for you!

Ar great risk of beating this thread to death, I will mention I used the new ZOOM h2 for the first time last weekend as a backup to the camera audio while filming a jazz quartet in a club.
Just using the built in mic with the 90 degree spread at approx. 10 feet from the stage, the audio was fantastic. The sound man, and two of the musicians (discriminating ears) were impressed. Very easy to operate and at an affordable price point.

jon

I returned my H2. It is a useful device as a back up but for me the sound wore thin rather quickly. The built in mic's have a poor high end and sound rather processed, almost metallic. Got some good recordings with it while I had it but none that I would call Hi-Fi. Sounded too boxey to me for anything serious though. The line in was too noisey for me as well.

Sometimes with these cheapo things the first impression can be overly favourable, but given time the truth emerges.

Did for me.

Jimmy, what do you plan to purchase in place of the H2? i.e. what do you consider to be next in line. The H4?

Also, anybody know about the Microtrack II release date yet? Or are they out and just not listing at B&H?

According to some UK websites the Microtrack II will be in stock 5th Dec...not sure about US etc.

As it happens I've just ordered a Zoom H2 thanks to (mostly) positive comments on this site, also it's very keen price point and primarily because it seems to suit my particular "prosumer" needs well.

I thought very hard about the Microtrack II but the deal killer for me was that I wanted something that did not have a built in battery (the H2 takes std. AA's) ...experience tells me built in battery devices are "always flat when needed in a hurry" and the batteries very expensive to replace when they (inevitably) die after 2-3 years. That said, the specs on the M-Audio device look really good...but at the end of the day it was going to be 200 quid area compared to the 138 quid I just paid for the H2 on Amazon.

Ahhh, good battery point. I dont know why, but I had forgotten/thought they changed that and had put the Microtrack II back into my wish list. *sigh* S/pdif is HANDY!

I returned my H2 [...] Sometimes with these cheapo things the first impression can be overly favourable, but given time the truth emerges [...] I have griped about the MicroTrack's built-in battery problem many times, but other than that, I've found the MicroTrack 24/96 (which I own) and I assume the new Microtrack II (which adds a good limiter and true Phantom Power) to be the best value in terms of price/performance. The TRS balanced connectors (mic or line input) are a big plus compared to the H2 for me, which offers a wiz-bang first impression, but for a basic, solid, tiny recorder, the MicroTrack II is a contender. Bells and whistles are only good if you actually need them. I use the MicroTrack with my mixer and pro mics, so fancy built-in stereo mics don't do anything for me.

Now if only M-Audio would do something about the built in battery issue. They offer a replacement for $75.00 (US). Another power option is that since the MicroTrack takes power from the USB, in addition to AC power, you can also tap off a nearby laptop or USB battery pack. Of course that puts a damper on portability, but often for long recordings a power source is nearby. To be fair, the LiIon battery in the MicroTrack runs longer than the AA batteries that power the H2, and so you can see that the designers wanted to optimize small size (replaceable batteries would have made the device larger) and long running time. And unless you're using AA rechargeables in the H2, your going through a lot of battery waste.

Well my new Zoom H2 arrived today and my initial impressions are very positive!

Popped in a couple of AA batteries (about the only thing that does n't come with this thing) and managed to get it all working without anything more than a casual glance at the extensive manual (but I will read it to ensure I fully understand this thing!)

Menu all seems pretty intuitive and I like the fact that once you've set things up how you want it's simplicity to prepare for recording (setting levels) and then start and stop recordings etc.

Got it linked up to a PC pretty quickly and had a listen to some quick 16/48000 .wav recordings (upto 24/96000 is possible on this thing but might be a bit overkill!) Recordings seem very clean, good stereo separation and the H2 even seemed to make a pretty decent job of recording lovely clear sound from my Rode Stereo VideoMic (plugged in through it's 3.5mm external mic socket after I'd enabled the 2.5V plug in power within the H2's menu.) The tripod fitting on the bottom is going to be a great asset too. Sure, this H2 is not professional level gear but it's absolutely ideal for the level I'm working at - and for 138 quid it's brilliant for my needs.

By the way, it came with 1.10 Firmware loaded (Sept 2007) and a 512MB SD card (I've got a 4GB card arriving in a couple of days.)

Obviously, I'll need to spend quite some time with this thing to form a true opinion - something I think I'll enjoy....I'm certainly very happy right now!!!!

from my Rode Stereo VideoMic (plugged in through it's 3.5mm external mic socket after I'd enabled the 2.5V plug in power within the H2's menu.)

Why did you have to enable plug-in power? I've got a Rode SVM. It has an internal 9V battery & I don't remember the owner's booklet mentioning plug-in power at all.

On both my Rode VM & SVM I find that I get much better response (with all kinds HDD disc etc. recording units, not just this new Zoom H2.... from first impressions) when plug-in power is available and enabled. On camcorders, as you say this does not seem to be needed.

I've read elsewhere (Zoom H2 & H4 Forum) that others find the signal too weak for some applications (with the SVM and H2 combination.) I've not had time to truely verify that personally with my new H2 yet (for my very quick test yesterday I just enabled it, having read these comments previously.)

Sure, the VM and SVM are nice and "hot" on both my Sony HC1 and a mate's Sony PD150 that I am sort of permanently borrowing (with Rode XLR conversion plug - mono of course from the SVM in this situation and camcorder's 48v phantom power turned off to prevent blowing the mic up!!!!)

If the sound is indeed too quiet with the H2 WITHOUT the 2.5v plug-in power enabled on it's 3.5mm Stereo Mic-in Socket then I suspect it will be down to the Zoom's electronics characteristics and nothing to do with these generally excellent Rodes, which as you say have their own on-board power amplification.

Give me a day ot two and I'll try and report back with more details specifically about how I find the H2 with and without the SVM and with and without plug-in power enabled. If others have experience of this scenario please chip in too!

OK, could n't resist another quick play with it this lunchtime!

Plug-in power (on or off) seems to make no audible difference with the Rode SVM. For sure, the noise floor (a low level background hiss) is noticeable regardless of the various AGC settings tried when using this particular Mic - at some point I'll try the VM as well but I believe from something I read on a Rode website it's essentially the same circuitry. I'm pretty sure this noise will be mainly from the H2 as I've not noticed it before (but have n't critically listened for it or noticed it before either.)

From various reviews/web forums I know that ALL the other digital recorders at this sub 250 quid price point (e.g. Microtrack 24/96000 and Edirol etc.) have similar noise/hiss issues with Mic-in/on-board Mic's. Maybe the Microtrack II will be better (anyone got theirs yet and care to do a Rode SVM test?) You get what you pay for - and I'm not prepared to pay 1000 quid right now. Maybe the new 200 quid M-Audio Microtrack II will excel on this specific point?

For the Rode SVM and Zoom H2 combination, best (well better) results seem to be with manually setting the gain, not using the AGC options (that I've tried so far.) It's usable but perhaps not as superb as I first though now I'm listening more critically. I've read (on H2 & H4 Forum) that the H2 Line-In is the better (less noisy) of the two inputs on the H2 but of course you would need to amplify the signal to that level which is yet another link in a chain.

However, all is not lost! The Mic-in was going to be a bonus for me if it worked well. The H2's noise floor seems to be a LOT better/quieter with the internal Mics so I think that's definitely the route I'll use it, i.e. as a highly portable self-contained recording unit. I tried it briefly like this in the pub last night and it captured ambient sound/friends talking superbly well and tonight I'll try it with my elder daughter (she's playing keyboards at a school event in a local village church!)

I think the path forward for me is that the Rode VM or SVM's will (mostly) stay on the cameras and the H2 will be placed in a better/nearer perfect position to capture back-up (but, hopefully, the primary!) stereo sound. I'll also use it (a lot!) for ambient/wild sound capture for adding into existing video projects since it's so small and portable and appears to be excellent for this judging from my first experiences.

Bottom line, still seems to be a GREAT buy, I'm still happy, but don't buy it for the Mic-in function (if my very quick testing with the Rode SVM is typical.) Hope this helps someone thinking about getting a digital audio recorder and let's hear how the new M-Audio Microtrack II is from someone soon - they should start shipping today in the UK!!!

Edit: Adding in a useful link to the excellent Zoom H2 + H4 Forum which has tons of information about this product and a link specifically about the noise level on the H2 Mic-in.

http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewforum.php?f=15

http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/recorders/zoomh2/index.html

Edit 2: Below is a link to a review of the original Microtrack citing that it too had some noise issues on the pre-amps. I guess nothing is perfect at this sort of price point.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar06/articles/maudiomicrotrack.htm

I own the Azden SGM-2X and while it is not a "hot" as in output level mic, I am wondering if anyone has tried one adapted to the proper plug as a single channel recorder? I am shooting shorts on Super 8 and 16mm lately and am looking for a decent field recorder. While I think flying the H2 from the boompole might be fine, the wideness of the pattern in outdoor setting is likely to be an issue. Just wondering what the SGM-2X might sound like not being that hot, directly into the H2.

We have an H4 at work and while I was the one to push them into buying that one for their field audio recording sessions, the tiny display and the awkward menu's bother me. Plus, nobody seems to be able to correctly understand the H,M,L in the inputs on the H4. Confuses me.

Anyway, anyone tried this combo yet? By the way, specs on that mic are here:
http://www.azdencorp.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=93299&cat=22&page=1


Sean McHenry

Hmm... do we need a dedicated sub-forum for digital audio recorders? I think we do.

Hmm... do we need a dedicated sub-forum for digital audio recorders? I think we do.

Yes - please!

Grazie

One other quick update for you on the H2. I'm findind that when listening to recorded sound files on the unit itself that they seem more noisy than the actual same files are when downloaded to PC (so it seems to be a bit like the Fostex FR2LE in that repect!) Used it to record some carol singing & my 9 year old daughter playing keyboards in a local church the other night - very pleased with the results!

Not sure if we need a separate section on Digital Audio Recorders or not...but I can see there will be more and more of these devices appearing so maybe yes.

Either way, this forum will still be a treasure trove however it's great information is organised!

Samson may have wimped out on the playback amps to save space. I can see where accurate monitoring would be a good thing and noisy amps would be a bad thing giving people a false impression that their recordings were noisy. Trouble is, how can you trust the internal playback and monitoring now if it's not as clean as the recording itself.

I think maybe I too am on the verge of asking too much from a $199 device.

Sean McHenry

I think maybe I too am on the verge of asking too much from a $199 device.


This may be true, but you're not alone I think in most cases we want more out of a money.

As I read through a lot of these threads, I can see two camps those who have spent a ton of money on gear and those who haven't. In most cases it seems that people want the functionality/clarity of device X that cost 5x (or more!) of device Y which they own. But as you point out sometimes that's simply asking too much from a consumer device. That doesn't make it a bad device, it's just not designed to do some of the things device X was designed to do.

Wayne

There doesn't seem to be any discussion yet re: the new MARANTZ PMD620, which is starting to show up at suppliers.

Has anyone had a look yet?

http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=4313&CatID=19&SubCatID=188

Wow, missed this one! Looks very interesting as a Zoom H2 etc. type competitor. Shame it lacks XLR inputs though (which I would have expected if it was a true "professional" unit.)

Hello,

So if I'm reading this thread right, the H2 isn't up to professional quality recording.

Besides not having XLR inputs, is the actual audio quality lacking?

How does it work with professional mics using adapters... professional level results?

The Marantz are known for noisy amplifiers, why would this new unit be any better?

Thanks!

Hello,

So if I'm reading this thread right, the H2 isn't up to professional quality recording.

Besides not having XLR inputs, is the actual audio quality lacking?

How does it work with professional mics using adapters... professional level results?

The Marantz are known for noisy amplifiers, why would this new unit be any better?

Thanks!


I'm not sure about "professional" but I just tested an H2 and found it more than enough for my podcast needs as far as quality goes.

I was in the store testing it and recorded with levels that were too low (They sounded find in playback from the unit but not once I got them on a computer). I amped them up by about 24dB in Audacity and through my headphones they sounded pretty good.

I was testing the mic mainly about 60cm away as I want to use it as a table mic for a podacast of 5 people, and this mic has front AND back mics. Of course when I moved the mic closer to my mouth it sounded a LOT better.

Look around for samples with it and you'll find some nice results.

Here's a couple more options...

Sony PCM-D1
and
Sony PCM-D50

It's a couple of months or so old (so slightly out of date) but this is quite a nice overview of what's available.

http://www.ditdotdat.org/bigcity/flash-recorders-overview/

Check it

http://www.bradlinder.net/2007/10/comparing-sony-pcm-d50-fostex-fr2-le_06.html

now mind you I'm a little suspicious about the dude's levels

Well, some of them at least. Bit scant on information that is easily found. Link below has their review of 2 of the units (Sony and Korg.)

http://reviews.cnet.com/4321-11314_7-6608500.html?tag=cnetfd.mt