http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=74084

Brief post to say I talked with the Focus Product Manager this afternoon. He said the long awaited HDV DTE firmware was -- as of today -- shipping.

You can add a QT wrapper to 720p30 so DTE is supported using FCP.

Since there is no 720p24 support in FCP or a 720p60 camcorder at this point -- they cannot (or are not) claiming this firmware will support either format. (They may also be unable to comment until Apple makes their move.)

He was unclear if one can select 720p24 and enable QT wrapper -- and I forgot to ask if 720p25 was supported. I expect I'll have the CD-ROM in a few days.

They are now looking at MSX support, but given the proportion of HDV shooters who use FCP verses Xpress Pro -- I got the feeling it might not be worth it to Focus. Also, Avid supports "faster than RT" import to MFX from the drive so it might not even be needed.

Liquid supports DTE using M2T so it already works at 24p, 25p, 30p, 50p, and 60p. I've lost track of Premiere Pro 2.0 and Vegas so I can't comment.

In any case, the ball is now very firmly in Apple's court.

Click here for the direct link to the Firmware updater for JVC DTE (Focus). (https://www.plimus.com/jsp/buynow.jsp?contractId=1667180)

Steve Brenner has been on top of this developement as well and provided the link. I am surprised they'd be charging for it though.

S.Noe

They are now looking at MSX support, but given the proportion of HDV shooters who use FCP verses Xpress Pro -- I got the feeling it might not be worth it to Focus. Also, Avid supports "faster than RT" import to MFX from the drive so it might not even be needed.

Liquid supports DTE using M2T so it already works at 24p, 25p, 30p, 50p, and 60p. I've lost track of Premiere Pro 2.0 and Vegas so I can't comment.

In any case, the ball is now very firmly in Apple's court.

I prefer to edit Avid, but it is really up to them to add support for JVC's HDV 24P. Currently I am converting the .m2t's to Avid DNxHD 720P 60Bit...the upressing to 4:2:2 looks incredible.

The wrapper though also has to remove the repeat flags regarding the DTE to FCP since it is 30 FPS, not 60....if they just change the pulldown, I bet it will work.

I prefer to edit Avid, but it is really up to them to add support for JVC's HDV 24P. Currently I am converting the .m2t's to Avid DNxHD 720P 60Bit...the upressing to 4:2:2 looks incredible.


Steve: What are you using for converting the .m2t's to DNxHD and upressing to 4:2:2? Also, are you converting 24p to 25/30?

First, no I am not changing the frame rate, it is still 24P.

Second, I use MPEG STREAMCLIP....do a google search and download it for free. Here was a post I made regarding the workflow:

Here is the best workaround currently (and free):

- Download DVHSCap and MPEG STREAMCLIP.
- Use DVHSCap (or a firestore) and capture the .m2t file.
- Open the file in MPEG STREAMCLIP.
- Select Avid Codec DNxHD.
- Bring the Quality Slider to Best.
- Deselest the De-interlace check boxes.
- In the Frame Rate Box, enter 23.976.
- Next to DNxHD, you need to go into the options and select which quality and frame size you want to edit in (Either 1080 or 720, and one of the qualities).

In Avid, create whatever project type is correct with your frame size. Avid will quickly import the files, but it will also Copy them and transcode to MXF...it does this quickly because of the DNxHD. You can delete the original files after importing.

This seems like a long workaround but it is rather quick. The only time consuming thing is the conversion. You can also Batch Convert in MPEG STREAMCLIP.

I just got the FOCUS CD UPGRADE in the mail today...the 720/30P works without any problems....

On a side note, I tried to capture with 24P, but alas, the file will not open in Quicktime or MPEG STREAMCLIP.

I just got the FOCUS CD UPGRADE in the mail today...the 720/30P works without any problems....

On a side note, I tried to capture with 24P, but alas, the file will not open in Quicktime or MPEG STREAMCLIP.

Am I correct that it let you specify YES I WANT QT and YES I WANT 24p at the same time?

It sounds like it recorded as though all was well. Correct?

Does the 30p QT file contain M2V and MP2 or M2V and AIFF?

If you use MPEG STREAMCLIP to create a file LIKE THAT you want the Focus to create and/or you think the Focus does create with 24p -- will MPEG STREAMCLIP open it? (Let's be fair, it could be STREAMCLIP.)

The Focus PM was very evasive about 24p support on the grounds that QT and FCP didn't support it. I forgot to ask: does the firmware attempt to process 24p?

And, did the coders write a general solution, 25p, 30p, 50p, 60p or only write 30p code. I don't buy the NO COMMENT on anything but 30p. The real question is did the software guys write a complete solution? The issue of no FCP 24p or 60p camcorders yet is bogus. Testing and fixing one expects to be delayed.

Obviously, if they did write a general solution, Focus is much closer to be ready for the future than if they hacked together 30p and have yet to do the whole job.

In fact, one has to wonder if the microprocessor has the power to handle 50p/60p or the code for 24p. (Or the ROM space to handle the different code.) Buyers should know if they are buying a dead-end product.

I'm not beating-up Focus. It's precisely because the task of demuxing TS is so difficult that I worry about any differences in frame-rate or actions. (I used to write realtime code that had to fit in very tiny spaces, so I'm not worrying needlessly.)

And, is anyone but me bothered by the fact the "special"fuctions work only for DV? In fact, even claiming the unit did DTE was bogus since given it was made for the HD100, Focus had to know it was going to be used mostly for HDV. Until this week, DTE wasn't possible with HDV.

Which raises the question -- can you use QT with 720p25?

Which also raises the question -- can you use QT with 480p50 and 480p60?


Apple's in the mess they are because despite the fact MPEG-2 specs have been fully defined for a decade (and used in EVERY hardware device), Apple hacked a 30p solution, not a general MPEG-2 solution. It's a pleasure to work with Liquid because say what you want about it, the FAST folks understand MPEG-2.

Lastly, let's assume that the 30p code is processing the 24p data. What would we expect to find in the file?

What might the QT frame-rate be set to?

What might be done with the Repeat Flags?

What might happen to the audio?

It looks like something was written into the file. A QT guy or girl might be able to find a way to use the file.

It's a pleasure to work with Liquid because say what you want about it, the FAST folks understand MPEG-2.
Steve,

On a side note, does Edius 4 work as well as Liquid?

I have Liquid, PPro2 and can use Edius 4. We are going to do a 7 minute dramatic short -- 24p -- to test the camera and some other gear? It may end up being transferred to film. Which program would you suggest to jump into first for the editing?

Also, if I remember correctly, you would going to do a full review on the different editors. Is it by chance availble somewhere?

Steve,
Also, if I remember correctly, you would going to do a full review on the different editors. Is it by chance availble somewhere?

I expect EDIUS to "work" better than Liquid. But, it does not offer either built-in 5.1 audio or a DVD creator. It also is a screen hog compared to Liquid.

I'll start my EDIUS work in October. I would have no hestitation going with EDIUS 4. Although, I've found a few tiny bugs.

From Matt McEwen (Focus Rep on the boards):

"To my knowledge, Final Cut does not support native HDV 720p/24 yet. If and when Apple adds 720p/24 support natively we will most likely support it."

They will likely add a "Quicktime 24P" option like they do in SD is my guess...the same for the 60P mode....currently it seems that when Quicktime is selected under HD mode, it also removes the pulldown....if it didn't, the result would be a 60 FPS clip, not 30.

And no it will not let you specify Type and Framerate....all it says is Quicktime.

the FAST folks understand MPEG-2.

Very true since the DC-1000 days until now (includes Pinnacle and FAST). They've started bundling Liquid 7.1 with HD-111 in EU to handle 25fps workflow. Another note about MPEG2 and compatability, Liquid is the only editor that fully supports XDCam in all it's flavors (18, 25 and 35MBit/sec) natively so it is an obvious choice for Sony MPEG2 based cameras as well.

Avid did follow through on the HDV promise but not with Xpress, instead with Liquid which is their solution for MPEG2 streams. They managed full fps (24, 25, 30, 50, 60) and datarate (18.2, 25, 35 Mbit) support for all MPEG2 already.

This carries over into the DTE solutions as well. The native m2t's the DTE solution creates import into Liquid without a hiccup in any framerate or datarate. Overall it's a great marriage without the problems other editors present (fundamental workflow wise).

AFA FCP: SMS (local JVC & FCP post house) bit the bullet and setup an Aja workflow. I believe they've abandoned trying native with FCP completely and a good deal of people around here have either went with Liquid (native) or FCP/Aja (non native) where ProHD 24fps is concerned.

S.Noe

From Matt McEwen (Focus Rep on the boards):

"To my knowledge, Final Cut does not support native HDV 720p/24 yet. If and when Apple adds 720p/24 support natively we will most likely support it."

1) Of course FCP doesn't now support 24p. But, that is not the issue. Nor is the fact there are no 50p or 60p camcorders.

2) The issue is -- did they write the firmware to handle 24p, 25p, 30p, 50p, and 60p -- or only for 30p.

3) What happens with the GD101? Does the firmware support 25p?

4) The camcorders that are shipping already output 24p, 25p, and 30p. And, enginners are able to generate 50p and 60p bit streams. So they should have had no problem checking the firmware.

5) They can look at the QT file to see if the firmware has done its job correctly. There is no need for FCP to be able to import it. Or, for a QT player to support 24p.


=============

Currently it seems that when Quicktime is selected under HD mode, it also removes the pulldown....if it didn't, the result would be a 60 FPS clip, not 30.

I don't understand:

1) What do you mean by "HD mode?" There is no pull-down with 30p. And, Repeat Flags are used for 24p.

2) If the Repeat Flags are NOT removed, then the file is 60p, but with only 24 real frames. How do you know the file isn't 60p? I thought you said you could not read the file.

3) If the Repeat Flags are removed, then the file is 24p, with 24 real frames. How do you know the file isn't 24p?

[QUOTE=Steve Mullen]The issue is -- did they write the firmware to handle 24p, 25p, 30p, 50p, and 60p -- or only for 30p.

=============

I had a good chat with the PM today. DTE is a function of the SOURCE, FOCUS FIRMWARE, and SPECIFIC NLE IMPORT FUNCTION. It can't exist until all 3 exist. Since our friends at Apple don't have a 24p or 25p IMPORT function -- there can be no DTE for these. And since there are no 50p or 60p camcorders, there can be no DTE for these.

I did get the feeling that FOCUS saw no problem with with supporting these, whenever Apple releases Import functions.

However, what happens if Apple decides to go with ONLY an Intermediate codec? Either AIC, an "improved" AIC, or CineForm?

These both work by converting HDV to the Intermediate codec during CAPTURE. The source is M2T -- which is already handled by the FOCUS. The converted file is stored on the computer's hard drive. Therefore, DTE is impossible!

And, there's no way the conversion can be done in realtime by anything but a very powerful computer.

And, there's no way the conversion can be done in realtime by anything but a very powerful computer.
Or a very expensive codec chip hardwired onto the Focus' breadboard. I wonder what the chances are of that?

Or a very expensive codec chip hardwired onto the Focus' breadboard. I wonder what the chances are of that?

Not high.

OT: working in Liquid's audio editor I'm find it consistently fails when playing. After 20 to 40 seconds the volume indicators freeze. From this point on the controls are almost completely locked-up. After another 10 to 20 seconds, the video freezes but audio continues.

If one waits another 30 to 40 seconds the video may come back. Then the volume indicators may unfreeze. Things are then fine for awhile and the process repeats.

I've put a STOP button on the Toolbar. When all is locked-up if I click it 30 to 50 times -- playback finally stops.

Although it's made worse by adding a second layer of video and made better by turning off all video -- there is no way to avoid this happening on EVERY playback if it goes on for more than a minute.

Once there was a crash -- and nothing was preserved.

Have you ever had this happen? It's driving me nuts.

Not high.

OT: working in Liquid's audio editor I'm find it consistently fails when playing. After 20 to 40 seconds the volume indicators freeze. From this point on the controls are almost completely locked-up. After another 10 to 20 seconds, the video freezes but audio continues.

If one waits another 30 to 40 seconds the video may come back. Then the volume indicators may unfreeze. Things are then fine for awhile and the process repeats.

I've put a STOP button on the Toolbar. When all is locked-up if I click it 30 to 50 times -- playback finally stops.

Although it's made worse by adding a second layer of video and made better by turning off all video -- there is no way to avoid this happening on EVERY playback if it goes on for more than a minute.

Once there was a crash -- and nothing was preserved.

Have you ever had this happen? It's driving me nuts.
OT: The problem is your timeline is getting complicated and your render engine is running all the time. Solution. Delete all render files that are not used by project and then select Clean up project (those are commands in Liquid). Uncheck the box in your render engine to "include yellow slices". Defrag your media drive in windows.

The ultimate problems is, you need to do some housekeeping and your timeline is stalling becase of it.

S.Noe

I’m a Final Cut user who bought the DR-HD100 specifically because I heard that it would be supporting QuickTime. I’m considering purchasing this upgrade CD but I have several questions.

Is this an official firmware update? I see no mention of it on the Focus Enhancements website. (The JVC site seems to be down today.)

If you just purchased the DR-HD100 shouldn’t this firmware update be a free download?

Who is Plimus, the company selling the CD?

What is on the CD and what does it do to your DR-HD100? I can’t find a description page on the Plimus site. When you search for “DR-HD100” or “QuickTime” there is nothing about this upgrade CD.

If this isn’t an official update but a 3rd party add-on, will it prevent you from using the official upgrade from Focus Enhancements when they or JVC release it? Will it void your warranty?

Any help is appreciated...

Yes, its offical, but the total lack of information is unacceptable -- as is the $39 charge. Focus markets their products as offering DTE, but th,en in the fine print says its only for DV. Who, buying an HD100 camcorder is likely to spend $1500 to $2000 to record DV?

But worse, they make no comment about whether the firmware is, or will be, installed in shipping units.

P... I assume is a fullfilment company.

Moreover, if as I expect, Apple's forthcoming "full" support for HDV is only via an intermediate codec like AIC (as is the case with FCE V3), DTE might remain available ONLY for 720/30p. And, who in 2007 will be shooting 30p?

Were Apple to only support FireWire CAPTURE of HDV -- with realtime conversion to AIC -- then the DR-HD100 would have to be used only in AV/C mode.

Which raises the question, does FCE 3 allow you to IMPORT an MT2 file with an automatic conversion to AIC?

Because, if one is to use a DR-HD100 as a FireWire hard-disk, the IMPORT M2T function must be implemented by Apple. Otherwise, we remain using Streamclip!

I've since heard through official channels that this is in fact legit and not a spoof web order form from someone trying to get money or credit card numbers. I don't know about other people but every few months or so I get an e-mail that looks like it's from my bank, e-bay, PayPal, etc. that directs you to such a page. I always try to confirm the legitimacy of an order form before typing in my credit card.

Anyway, I'm going to order my CD today so I'll let everyone know how the upgrade goes.

I’d also like to thank Steve Benner for posting a link here because otherwise I NEVER would have found the order form for this critical update.

Yes, its official, but the total lack of information is unacceptable -- as is the $39 charge. Focus markets their products as offering DTE, but th,en in the fine print says its only for DV. Who, buying an HD100 camcorder is likely to spend $1500 to $2000 to record DV?

I agree, It's unacceptable. I think we should complain to JVC. The DR-HD100 is after all a JVC product and part of their ProHD line. It says ProHD right on it. (Not ProDV...) We shouldn't have to pay for a firmware upgrade to another party (the OEM) to make the unit work properly with the camera. It's not about the $40. Heck, charge $40 more for the drive, I don't care. It's the principle. It feels like someone else is coming in and shaking me down.

Even more important to me, why the heck do I have to buy a damn CD, wait a few days for some 3rd party company to burn it and then wait again for it to show up in the MAIL! That's ridiculous. I'm a professional. I have shoots coming up. I don't have time for that kind of nonsense. Put it up on a damn web page so that customers can download it and install it immediately.

Anyway, from what I've read here and experienced thus far JVC seems like a good company. I'm sure they will understand our concerns and adjust accordingly.

Apple is having a big release party on the 13th...Final Cut Pro 6 (fingers crossed).

I agree, It's unacceptable. I think we should complain to JVC. The DR-HD100 is after all a JVC product and part of their ProHD line. It says ProHD right on it. (Not ProDV...) We shouldn't have to pay for a firmware upgrade to another party (the OEM) to make the unit work properly with the camera. It's not about the $40. Heck, charge $40 more for the drive, I don't care. It's the principle. It feels like someone else is coming in and shaking me down.
On one hand I agree with you, on the other hand I don't.

The DR-HD100 has captured m2t from the beginning and has worked correctly wtih native workflow. Focus Enhancements went out of their way to make it work with Final Cut which wasn't in the cards from the beginning. The guys at Apple have pigeon holed (somewhat) FCP because QT files must be provided. The update is FCP specific and affects no other NLE that can handle 30p m2t (Media Composer, Velocity HD and Liquid etc).

So, it stinks that there is a cost involved to get QT files but the DR-HD100 has worked as advertised from the beginning (m2t). Maybe FCP 6 will be a complete overhaul of file type handling?

S.Noe

The DR-HD100 has captured m2t from the beginning and has worked correctly wtih native workflow.

Maybe FCP 6 will be a complete overhaul of file type handling?

S.Noe

The problem isn't the recording of m2t files -- it's what can you do with them.

Anyone reading the marketig HEADLINES would read that this was a device for ProHD and that it had a great feature called DTE. The virtues of DTE are then extolled. Now in fine print you see that DTE is only for DV. That's EZ to miss.

So now you have FCP or FCE plus m2t files. Exactly how is one supposed to be able to use these m2t files?

And while foks assume FCP 6 -- which is not comimg in Sept. -- will work with m2t files -- that's not a good assumption. If Apple moves to only AIC, then you may only be able to CAPTURE m2t!

I just tried importing a m2t file in FCE. It will not do so. One has to connect a camera and Capture.

Which means your hard disk full of m2t files is nearly worthless -- unless you hook it up via AV/C mode and pretend it's a camera.

If one doesn't get DTE, then the cheaper CitiDisk seems as good.

On one hand I agree with you, on the other hand I don't.

The DR-HD100 has captured m2t from the beginning and has worked correctly with native workflow. Focus Enhancements went out of their way to make it work with Final Cut which wasn't in the cards from the beginning.

I don’t have any inside information but I find it hard to believe that JVC and Focus initially designed the unit to be incompatible with FCP. It’s one of the two top professional editors and a substantial percentage of potential customers. It seems more likely that QuickTime support was always intended but it took them a long time to make it work. This happens sometimes and it is understandable.

There is a press release on the Focus site from January that says they will support QuickTime in April and there have been posts about it on this forum for months. I purchased the unit just recently with this understanding.

http://www.focusinfo.com/company/article.asp?id=105898

So, it stinks that there is a cost involved to get QT files but the DR-HD100 has worked as advertised from the beginning (m2t).

I must say, I have to agree with Steve Mullen on this one. I pulled out the JVC product brochure for the DR-HD100 that I had printed out and it’s full of wording like, “Now everyone can make capturing a thing of the past with DR-HD100.” and “”No capturing, no file transfer, no file conversion. Just shoot and edit!” without any caveats anywhere. Of course, I wasn’t tricked into buying the unit by any means. I read the specs. I just agree with Steve that the marketing skews the issue.

And please, as I said, the main problem for me is not the $40. It’s the inconvenience of having to order the update on CD and the obscure order form from an unknown third party with no description of what you are purchasing, and no official mention (let alone links) on the Focus or JVC site.

This upgrade wasn’t handled as well as it could have been. By airing my concerns, I’m hoping the next one will be smoother.

UPDATE: I checked the Focus site again just before I posted this and it looks like they’ve put a link to the update order form under the Special Announcements banner on the very top page. If someone from Focus is reading this thread, might I also suggest that this link be put on the support – software downloads page because that’s where most people will go looking for this update.

Currently the easiest way into FCP is using the MPEG STREAMCLIP method. Not hard at all, just set it and forget it.

On the other hand, I prefer Avid, and they have major issues. None of this Liquid nonsese (not bashing it mind you), but their most important editor (Media Composer) cannot edit HDV 24P. It has become even worse than the Apple situation. The company exists because of Editing.

Currently the easiest way into FCP is using the MPEG STREAMCLIP method. Not hard at all, just set it and forget it.

On the other hand, I prefer Avid, and they have major issues. None of this Liquid nonsese (not bashing it mind you), but their most important editor (Media Composer) cannot edit HDV 24P. It has become even worse than the Apple situation. The company exists because of Editing.


Agreed! Saying they chose a different path to support 24 and 25P HDV with Liquid is ridiculous. Are people who already own MC and XPressPro supposed to buy Liquid (which bTW does not offer any easy work path to its professional edit solutions at this stage)? That would seem to defeat the purpose of owning "the best editor on the planet" -

I think Avid will support HDV in MCA and Xpress Pro, hopefully on the next version.

Agreed! Saying they chose a different path to support 24 and 25P HDV with Liquid is ridiculous..
The fact remains that Liquid has supported the format since the HD1 and then subsequently the ProHD series. The FAST team wrote the code specifically for HDV1 LongGOP to place the format in Liquid 6. Avid is not stupid and we'll have to wait for the next generation of Xpress to see if the Liquid timeline was integrated. I seriously doubt Avid will attempt to re-invent the wheel when they have first class mpeg2 programmers already in Munich (FAST team).