Will Cineform be supporting the new XDCAM HD?

We have had discussions with Sony on XDCAM HD, and consider this project very feasible. I can't say more.

Thanks, I'm hoping for announcements at NAB. Until then I'll just chill.

Any one know if Cineform is going to have a plugin for Premiere Pro that would work with the new Sony XDCam with the full 35mb encoding? I do not want to use the HDV through the Firewire.

I too would like the ability to use CF with F350 clips. But you need to consider that with XDCAM you would not normally "capture" from the camera to the PC, instead you would use the FAM (file access mode) feature to simply copy the files/clips you want from the camera or deck to the PC, no capturing required. So this would mean that you would need to transcode the clips using a simple conversion application. So what you need is a conversion programme that supports MXF files to transcode the footage to CFHD avi's. I use canopus pro coder, but I don't know whether this supports MXF's, it will certainly produce nice CFHD avi's from other formats. Maybe Cineform will add sony XDCAM HD MXF's to the conversion options of Aspect, connectHD and Prospect, that would then enable you to mix HDV and XDCAM in the same projects.

If you have the HDV option card for the XDCAM HD decks and you shoot at 25Mb then you can playback and produce a HDV compatible stream over the firewire, then you should be able to capture using Connect HD. But I'm really more interested in the 35Mb data rate.

How about it Cineform???

Guess we won't hear anything till after NAB.

I'm not au fait with this file format, but if you can playback your clips in Media Player via DirectShow, there's nothing to stop you creating an AviSynth script to read in the file, then save it off as a CFHD AVI in VirtualDub (assuming sound is limited to stereo - surround could be a challenge).

There seems to be some discussion on getting MXF files running in Media Player right here (http://mxf.snellwilcox.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=22). The bottom line is that if DirectShow can get a handle on the files (ie there is a decoder filter), so can AviSynth via its DirectShowSource() command. If you can upload a two-second clip somewhere, I'll be happy to check it out.

We are looking into adding MXF conversion support to HDLink, which would enable XDCAM HD to be simple converted to CineForm Intermediate AVI. How many of you are ready for this?

We are looking into using XDCAM HD but would like it to fit a little easier in the post set up that we have now with out reconfiguring the whole thing. Still looking into post options so I can not really talk in depth about it yet. We would like to use Adobe products and have been looking at the AJA card that goes with it. But if we could just use HD link and put the money towards something else for production great! Still need to look into the deck and how that needs to hook up to the NLE. Thanks for your repley David

Any more details you can give us about Cineform and the XDCAM HD would be great.

I will be taking delivery of my F350 on June 10th. So I for one would love to have the option of converting XDCAM MXF's to CFHD so I can keep all my HD footage in the one superior format. I know AVID are going to be releasing an update for Xpress Pro, but I just keep comming back to premiere pro because of all the plug-ins.

Hey Alister I bet you are about to loose it when you get that Camera. I am hardcore Premiere guy to I just like the workflow. and PC's are much easier to maintain then a Mac. David how is the HDlink and XMF file format going?

Got MXF working for the Panasonic HVX200 in the latest versions of our software -- so we are closer on XDCAM HD.

That's good news David. I have my F350, nice camera. All I need now is a way to edit the MXF files.

Still trying to work out a way of getting CF files from my Mpeg MXF's. I can use the Snell and Wilcox or MOG solutions to strip out the MPEG video and aes audio but none of my file conversion programmes recognise the aes audio. It would be so nice to be able to stick with cineform as it is a good balance between file size, quality and processor requirement. It's starting to look like I may have to go down the Avid route.

If you already have a MOG license to the MXF Demux than conversion to CineForm is pretty straight forward. Those MOG components work great and are DirectShow based, and so is the CineForm encoding components, so they can all be easily hooked up. This is how HDLink is likely to do it, when we find the time and/or high demand for XDCAM-HD support. Because of the additional licensing it is likely to be in Prospect HD only.

CineForm's HDLink( part if Aspect and Prospect) is very nice, 100% easy to use and it seems to work on all the mxf files that Panasonic p2 cameras can throw at it.

-from a realworld user

HD connect, Premiere etc don't recognise the files that MOG or Snell outputs in particular the AES audio. The only way I have found so far to get from XDCAM HD to CFHD is via Avid Liquid, but it's one clip at a time, which is not really going to work in the long run. Lets hope that MXF support becomes more common place in applications such as Premiere.

What I would say to Dave at Cineform is tha at the moment there appears to be only one application that actually supports 35mb HD XDCAM files and that's Avid Liquid. Avid Xpress Pro even in the latest release only supports 25mb, perhaps once again Cineform could steal a lead on every on else with a simple conversion utility like Connect HD. It's easy to use FAM mode to get the files onto the PC so you don't need to be able to access the camera or anything fancy, just batch convert MXFs to CFHD.

Anyone got a batch process that will first strip out the M2V and AES files from the MXF's (preferably repacking the audio as WAV's) so that I can use something like Pro Coder or Virtual Dub to batch convert the files to CFHD?

OK I tried Connect HD on a Sony HD XDCAM MXF and it almost works! It will convert the clip to a CFHD AVI provided you have a MPEG decoder installed on the PC. However it dosn't convert the audio and produces a blocky image on areas of high motion. Shame because it's very close to doing what I would like it to do.

Hello David I have been working with the XDCam 350 and I have really enjoyed it so far. Where are you guys on getting HD link to work with the XDcam like it does with the P2 cards? Are you guys still working on getting this camera to work with HD link?

When there are more cameras on the market we might add XDCAM HD support, but unforunately the licensing costs for the tools needed are more than we will make back for the few XDCAM HD users running CineForm.

Well that is to bad I was looking forward to using the FAM workflow with the 350. I guess I will have to get a card to work with it. What exactly does the Prospect and AJA card give me that a Black Magic Multibridge Extreme doesn't give me.

What exactly does the Prospect and AJA card give me that a Black Magic Multibridge Extreme doesn't give me.

Real-time multistream HD editing on a fast desktop PC without a huge eborate RAID. In the end Prospect HD is a lower cost, faster workflow, with file size that enable more complex productions with simpliest path to mastering and archive (the whole Dust to Glory feature master (that was uses for filmout) is under 200GB.) That was two years ago, and our tools and compression are much better today.

David,

You may recall our phone conversation about transcoding Grass Valley Infinity JPEG 2000, and many thanks for the time you spent with me on that, but I've found out information about the Infinity CCDs that has caused me to shy away from that camera. So I've ordered an XDCAM HD (350 version) instead. I would like to continue enjoying the advantages of the Cineform intermediate codec in my workflow with this camera. I know there would be no issue at 25 Mb/sec HDV, but then much of the camera's advantage is lost.

What would happen if I fed the 35 MB/sec firewire output to Aspect HD 4.2? If it won't process it now, will there be an update that will enable ingest at this bit rate if it won't do it now?

There is a MainConcept plug-in that enables native editing in Premiere, and Vegas 7 is supposed to handle XDCAM HD very well, again I believe native. I don't think that either solution offers all the advantages of your software intermediate codec such as 4:2:2 interpolation, intraframe compression and so forth.

I'm very pleased with the performance I've gotten editing Premiere 2.0/Cineform 4.x in HDV, but I've sold my HD100, ordered the 350 and thereby have crossed the Rubicon. Since the die is cast, can you help me to be certain that it doesn't come up snake-eyes?

Tip McPartland

If you can play the Sony XDCAM media through MediaPlayer there is a good chance the new Aspect HD will convert those files in HDLink. However we have not developed integrated XDCam support as the licensing costs (for some supporting tools) are higher than the expected return. This can easily change with any minor release, as the infrastructure is in-place.

David,

Thanks for your response, especially during the weekend. You're a class act, one more reason to try and keep using Cineform.

I'll try the Media Player route. A thought, if the bottom line isn't too red for supporting XDCAM HD, it might be a good idea anyway to retain the Aspect customers, because as I'm sure you know, every Aspect customer is a future Prospect buyer waiting for a check.

Tip

David (Newman), puhleeeeeeeeze expand Aspect HD to include XDCAM HD ingest. See the thread about Premiere and the MainConcept plug-in where several of us are bemoaning the way the MainConcept plug-in works.

David, as you know, I paid $399 for the MainConcept plug-in, and also bought Vegas. Neither solution, from my experience, compares to what I had with Aspect HD when I still was inputting HDV.

Bottom line is that consider that anyone with an XDCAM HD camera or deck has spent quite a bit of money, and will happily throw good money after good for a Cineform solution.

Also perhaps you already know that you guys ignore supporting file-based video at your own peril, this is the wave of the future and your competition's poor implementations have given you a BIG window allowing successful entre into this market.

Tip

We isn't much enough demand for XDCAM HD support in an Aspect HD level product yet (too few cameras to warrant the engineering effort.) We hope to add support to Prospect HD at some point.

With XDCAM being an 8-bit format, the 10-bit Prospect solution may price you out of the market, at this point it does me. You may not be aware of the huge sales volume of these cameras now, they are catching on like the XDCAM (SD) never did.

Just solve the issue by charging a few hundred bucks for an Apect module, enough to cover your costs. Well, a Prospect solution would be better than nothing I guess.

Tip

100 HDV cameras sell for every XDCAM-HD, as we can gauge from the very few inquiries we get on XDCAM-HD. 8-bit source is not the issue, after all even HDCAM is 8-bit, it is the price of the camera, at $16-$20k per camera we believe the end user is seeking the highest quality solution, and that is posting in 10-bit (read why 10-bit for 8-bit sources works here : http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHD.htm#10bit.) A Prospect Edit license is $1499 (only $1000 with an Aspect HD upgrade license) so think that makes the most sense. Find ten XDCAM-HD users to upgrade or purchase Prospect HD Edit, and that might be enough to warrant adding the feature sooner.

David,

You're right, at that upgrade price (from Aspect) Prospect does make sense. I'll run some posts and see if I can get a Greek chorus up and running!

Tip

Thanks Tip. I would be pleased to hear the XDCAM HD market is ready.

I really don't care if it is a Aspect Module or Prospect addtion. I just wish that Cineform would support the FAM Workflow for the XDCAM HD 350. I know that I can still capture the video through the AJA card and all that good stuff. I also know someday it will happen that the FAM workflow is going to be the standard, but I hope and wish that I can stay with the Adobe workflow and not have to switch Apple. Which I believe a few people on this forum had to do because no one on the PC side sees this camera as a real contender in Video Production. I guess Mainconceipt but so far I hear it really is not worth installing. That is why I wish Cineform would implement the FAM workflow for the XDCAM 350. They have a solid rep and you know that their products will work that is why I would like to see them do this for all who use the XDCAM 330/350. I guess I could look at the AXIO. Axio is actually a grand more then Prospect. They do support FAM but only for import.

HELP!

I'm trying to use HDLink to Export a M2T file via firewire into an XDCAM HD Deck with MPRG TS Card option and HDLink is not cooperating.

The Deck and the card work as I can take my Z1U and transfer stuff in and out of the PDW-F70. It's only HDLink that insists on rolling the F70 on record then goes into a tizzy when it can't talk to it.

I don't want HDLink to record the F70.... I just want it to stream bits out. How can I disable transport control, or does anyone have a better way to do this?

thanks!

Any news on MXF XDCAM HD support in Cineform?

I'd like to second this request...if there's any update please post. Thanks.

I'm in, just do it.

Jim

I just installed the latest Prospect update that supports XDCAM HD. What is the ingest procedure? I can't find anything on the site when I search for XDCAM or XDCAM HD.

Thanks.

Tip

Mount you XDCAM media/camera and convert the MXF files, either directly by specifying the output path, or copy the MXF data to your local drives first.

Hi David,
Tried Aspect and Prospect in three diferent computers. Can´t put to work with files already in a folder, in the computer.
Any clues?
Didn´t tried straight from the camera.

Gérson

Send the some sample files to support, or provide a download link here.

Hi David,
Can you send me your private email? So I can send you a ftp address to download three files that I just uploaded, so you can test.
And I can send you the messages that I received.
Thanks,

Gerson

gerson@lumiere.com.br

I was able to convert your clips. However I did find an issue with the clips with only 2 channel audio, all our samples have 4 channels. So Banrisul0004.MXF converted fine, yet Ipanema0046.MXF & CapsulaZH-090.MXF required a small patch HDLink that will get into the current build. I'll send you the patch.

Hi David,
Do you know when you gonna send the patch?
I can´t convert any of the three files.
Thanks.

Gérson

No need, all the new builds are up and they work fine with XDCAM-HD MXF clips, give it a try.

Hi David,
Just downloaded and tried Aspect and Prospect.
Neither worked. HDLink that comes with Aspect shutdown when I try to convert from MXF to AVI.
HDLink that comes with Prospect returns this message: Format not avaiable (P2 viewer missing).
But I´m trying to convert a XDCam HD file, not P2.
The version is 3.0.5 Build 135. There is no capture card installed in the computer.
I tried two different computers, with a up to date SP 2 installation.
Since I´m in Brazil, the XP comes in Portuguese. Don´t know if this can be a problem.
I read in other posts that some guys installed and are working with the files.
Do you think this can be a instalation problem?

It seems the HDlink can find the MXF libraries on your PCs.
Attached is .reg file, download, unzip and edit it: modify this line to much the path on your PC.
"DataDir"="C:\\Program Files\\Common Files\\CineForm\\Data"

Then double click on the .reg file to update this entry. I'm guessing that the "C:\\Program Files\\Common Files\\CineForm\\Data" path doesn't exist on a Portuguese XP install.

If this works, will will have a official fix in the next build.

Hi David,
Installed the fix, find the modification in regedir. It´s there.
Still not working. I´m using the same three files that I send to you to test. Again three diferent computers. None worked. Same message: Format not avaiable (P2 viewer missing?)

Can you tell me the full path to the Data directory.? We believe this is the failure point, but I can't be sure you have set this registry entry correctly. All three files convert without issue here -- and look very nice, BTW.

Hi David,
The registry:
Hkey_current_users\software\cineform\aspectHD Capture\ datadir reg_sz c:program files\common files\cineform\data

And software:
c:\arquivos de programa\arquivos comuns\cineform\data

As you can see, the software is in a diferent place.
Adobe installs the software in a portuguese XP place.
Do you think this is the problem?

All you need to is make the registry match you install location.

"DataDir"="C:\\arquivos de programa\\arquivos comuns\\cineform\\data"

Did you try that?

Note: '\\' used in the .reg file '\' used if are using regedit.exe.

Hi David,
Uninstalled, cleaned registry, reinstalled, the registry match install location.
Software is located and registry point to: c:\arquivos de programa\arquivos comuns\cineform\data

Inside the data folder there are DMS_crypto.xml 5KB, typer.xml 5kB and xmldict.xml 50kB. Is that correct?

Still not working.

Gérson