Talks about the V1U, 24p etc. etc:

http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=67635-0

The big difference between CineFrame 24 and this 24p is we're giving much more adjustability to the shutter and a number of parameters. In the Sony Z1U HDV camcorder, CineFrame 24 is not limited, but the shutter can only go to a 60th of a second, whereas, in this particular product, the shutter is at 1/48th or 1/24th of a second. You're at the 24p imaging capability at that point. With CineFrame 24 you can achieve the 24-frame look, but you have the restriction that it can't do 48th and 24th. When you boil it down to the basics, that's the biggest difference between the two.


Heh. The big difference is Cineframe is a bad approximation of a look, and 24p is the real thing.

As a marketing executive, I'm surprised he didn't see fit to point that out (even if in terms that were kinder to the older cameras).

Actually, the problem with CineFrame 24 overall isn't the "look" as much as it is the implementation of the technology, which I believe Sony failed to make work. using CineForm's Connect HD or Sony Vegas (both of which excel at pulldown) the CineFrame 24 is very useful, and like others, we've used it on occasion to great satisfaction. But...if you try using it in any standard workflow, it's a juddery mess. Which is where 98% of users found themselves using it.

How about that new deck with HD-SDI? Is that just output or can it be input as well with the optional board? It sure would be nice if we could edit on a system such as FCP with live HD output and just record it through HD-SDI to this deck instead of having to wait many hours for FCP to render to HDV stream to output to tape. It would save a heck of a lot of time for recording master tapes and we could save the system for encoding the blu-ray disks and not have to waste time doing both.

From what I can tell from the tiny bit of info I could find it seems like the optional SDI board is for SD-SDI input only. Now that blows.

There is an optional board for component input for the 1500 deck as well but it is limited to SD component.

he is right. Most films are not going to see film. They go straight to DVD. Now you can just download the movie or TV show etc to your iPod.

"...because of the nature of CMOS, we can actually take each individual pixel and process it in the EIP as compared to CCD. So in that process, a good example would be if I shoot toward us sitting here from over there across the street, because of the low light here and the high light outside, this detail on a typical camera is wiped out. Because of the ability to individually adjust pixels and their output, the electronic image processor, depending on the settings in the camera, if you want to bring this detail up, the way you would bring it up on a normal camera is you'd hit the backlight compensation, and details of the building outside more or less get washed out, and this detail inside comes up. With this camera, when you go through these functions, the outside and the inside, this is still darker but now you can see the detail without sacrificing the image outside."

THIS IS EXCITING.

he is right. Most films are not going to see film. They go straight to DVD. Now you can just download the movie or TV show etc to your iPod.

The only problem with this method of easy editing is that if you make a DVD from just doing a 60i edit it will be an interlaced DVD and not look as good on a digital progressive display. By editing as a true 24p and encoding as a true 24p DVD you will be able to view 24p projects as progressive scan on a progressive display which means higher quality. For SD TV's this may not be a big issue but more and more people will have HDTV's and the DVD's will look much better if they are made as proper 24p. That is why I am a little shocked at the dude's statement about how most people will edit 24p in a normal 60i project. If they do this they pretty much threw out any advantage to using 24p in the first place and are treating it more like an effect that looks cool.

Does anyone know if you can put 24P down on a Blue Ray disc???

If you can, its going to make that Playstation 3 that much nicer to own for
playing your own 24P content... and the disc's have 50gb...

Does anyone know if you can put 24P down on a Blue Ray disc???

If you can, its going to make that Playstation 3 that much nicer to own for
playing your own 24P content... and the disc's have 50gb...

Yes, of course you can put 24p, 12p, 50i, 50p, 30p, 60i 60p, and virtually anything else on BD. VC1, H.264, MPEG2 are all standards acceptable to BD.

The only problem with this method of easy editing is that if you make a DVD from just doing a 60i edit it will be an interlaced DVD and not look as good on a digital progressive display. By editing as a true 24p and encoding as a true 24p DVD you will be able to view 24p projects as progressive scan on a progressive display which means higher quality. For SD TV's this may not be a big issue but more and more people will have HDTV's and the DVD's will look much better if they are made as proper 24p. That is why I am a little shocked at the dude's statement about how most people will edit 24p in a normal 60i project. If they do this they pretty much threw out any advantage to using 24p in the first place and are treating it more like an effect that looks cool.

Maybe you won't be able to tell the difference. I think that is the idea. But we shall see.

"VC1, H.264, MPEG2 are all standards acceptable to BD."

I think you may have that backwards Douglas.

A BD disk will conform to at least one of those specs, but something that conforms to those specs may not conform to BD.

This info is prefinalise, but the spec as of a year ago supports,

1920x1080x59.94-i, 50-i (16:9)
1920x1080x24-p, 23.976-p (16:9)
1440x1080x59.94-i, 50-i (16:9) MPEG-4 AVC / SMPTE VC-1 only
1440x1080x24-p, 23.976-p (16:9) MPEG-4 AVC / SMPTE VC-1 only
1280x720x59.94-p, 50-p (16:9)
1280x720x24-p, 23.976-p (16:9)
720x480x59.94-i (4:3/16:9)
720x576x50-i (4:3/16:9)

Unless the spec has been changed, there is a 24p, which is essential, but no p30 or p25. More worryingly there is no p50 or p60 outside of 720p. Most worryingly from our point of view HDV format video is not supported.

Years from now, civilisation will move beyond the earth, past the moon and cover the furthest reaches of the solar system. We will send ships out into the milky way and truly search for our place among the stars. Astronomers will build planet sized microwave telescopes to learn more about the universe, they will point them at the blackness of space between the galaxies and with equipment not yet dreamt of in modern physics detect the faintest echos of Sony shooting themselves in their other foot.

Is that right? The DR60 drive has to be sustaining 3g before the head is lifted?

What the 3G drop protection does is it retracts the head and powers the drive down, so that if you did drop it past a force of 3G, you don't wipe out the drive

If you drop something it travels at 1g. So this drive is so tough only 3g can damage it? I don't get that.

BluPrint, which is a BD authoring tool, allows for the import and compliance of 24, 25, and 30p, and I haven't looked at it to see if it supports 60p, but I'm fairly sure it does. As far as playback devices, I'm quite certain they support all four progressive framerates.
I've not looked at the spec in a while, but VC1 allows for all of those framerates, so does MPEG2, as does MPEG4/h.264/AVC. And one of those formats may be used in BD authoring.

As far as the DR60, it lifts the head at 3G with the buffer reading/storing data. As soon as the shock subsides, the head moves itself back. I'll be subjecting the DR60 to a couple of hard tests on Monday of next week, and we'll see how it does. I did drop one from waist height and it managed the problem without any incident.

That is why I am a little shocked at the dude's statement about how most people will edit 24p in a normal 60i project. If they do this they pretty much threw out any advantage to using 24p in the first place and are treating it more like an effect that looks cool.When folks make HD DVDs they will certainly want to make 24p. Bt that's 2007.

But for PAL or NTSC DVDs played on a $79 Chinese player -- even when sent to a new HDTV -- I think you are making a big deal out this issue. And, yes, most folks will be using 24p for a "cool look".

Panasonic intended 2-3 exactly to create a cool look that could work with a full 60i infrastructure. There's no sin in using 2-3 to create a look.

Personally, I don't particularly like the stuttered motion of 24P very much, but 1/24th shutter speed sounds interesting. I hesitate to leave the realm of good low-light sensitivity like on the VX2000/PD cams and this could get things one f-stop closer.

Eric Gorski said:

"THIS IS EXCITING."

In reference to greater exposure latitude, I wholeheartedly agree. Every single f-stop of better exposure latitude is a huge improvement in quality. Alongside resolution, I believe this to be the most important factor in visual quality. After high resolution and exposure latitude is achieved, I think we should then wish for 60p with 1/60th exposure. That would retain a nice bit of motion blur while providing that smooth IMAX look.

I thought the internal 1080/60p comment was the most interesting. It makes it sound like the V1U's technology is only one step away from outputting 1080/60p. Makes me go hmmm ... Ott: What the camera does is the imagers are 1080/60p imagers. Going into the EIP chip is 1080/60p and then it outputs it to the circuitry as a 1080i signal.

What you have to admire about the Sony people is they they are secure enough in their market to make their own wave. They don't seem to be concerned about "purist" arguments. If they think they can get a look another simpler way, they have no problem with point the industry that way... They may have missed with Cineframe, but they move on unfazed...

Is that right? The DR60 drive has to be sustaining 3g before the head is lifted?

What the 3G drop protection does is it retracts the head and powers the drive down, so that if you did drop it past a force of 3G, you don't wipe out the drive

If you drop something it travels at 1g. So this drive is so tough only 3g can damage it? I don't get that.It's not really Bob Ott's turf, but he needs to take a little physics lesson... ! He got that almost completely wrong.
- He made the mistake of seeing the "3G" term and got it all wrong.
It has accelerometers in 3 different axes, each at 90degrees to each other (commonly referred to as x, y, and Z axis). This means that when it's dropped, it can be at any orientation and the electronics will read each of the sensors readings and deduce that the unit is undergoing a 1G acceleration, i.e. it's under free-fall (being SLIGHTLY pedantic, you could in theory simply accelerate the unit yourself in any direction at 1G and the unit would think it was in free-fall too, but thats huuuugely unliklely to happen).

Sony say the unit can "survive" being dropped from heights "up to 1metre".

When you drop it from 1 meter (just over 3feet) above the ground, it will be travelling at 4.4meters per second (9.8mph) when it hits the ground.

Even assuming a "very optimistic" scenario of a landing in fairly deep-pile carpet, i.e. assuming it decelerates from 9.8mph to 0mph in a distance of 1cm, it will still undergo (& survive) a deceleration of 98G !! (for a very short time).

So very short but massive deceleration. If it hit a solid surface, like concrete, it would undergo a deceleration of about 1000G (assuming it stopped in 1mm).

3G deceleration for an object hitting the ground is absolutely nothing :
If you dropped the DR-60 from a height of only about 1.2inches above the deep-pile carpet, that alone would equate to a 3G deceleration for the DR-60 unit in the short 1cm (0.4in.) distance it has to stop in.

Just to be pedantic, free fall is 0G in all directions.

Just to be pedantic, free fall is 0G in all directions.

Yeah, well.....aside from the fact that you're incorrect, relative wind is a couple G's, opening shock is several G's, depending on the pack job and the type of main being worn. Additionally, there are significant G forces during almost every RW maneuver, and of course, depending on winds, landings can vary between 0G's on up to body shattering forces.

Great thread, enjoying it (even if its wandered a little).

Who needs wikipedia.org when you've got dvinfo.net ? Learn about gravity, skydiving, wuffo's, DR-60's hitting the ground, and free physics lessons too!

ps. slightly disappointed that Bob Ott hasn't registered and contributed to this thread. If anyone knows him, can they give him a prod please.

Just to be pedantic, free fall is 0G in all directions.
Hmm.. At the risk of getting flamed, I'm gonna be pedantic too - actually, terminal velocity is zero-g. Pre-terminal free-fall is 1g at point of exit, reducing to zero-g as you gain speed (and therefore air resistance in the opposite direction).

Of course, that's assuming a stable spread and lack of DSE's previously noted accelerations!....

Man, there's nothing like falling outta high stuff! :)

And FWIW, in my experience wuffo is used in both mildly derrogatory (i.e. good-natured mickey taking) and completely non-derrogatory (i.e. simple delineation as previously mentioned) ways - I've certainly never heard it used with any real venom. Skydivers are - despite having a very strong sense of "tribal unity", if you like - a very friendly and non-exclusive group of people. The very first time I jumped (as part of my AAF course), I didn't want to tell the more experienced guys it was my first jump for fear of the "oh, you're some peon tourist" type attitude - in fact, everyone I told clapped me on the back with a huge grin and told me to have a great jump. Great people, without exception...

Dominic?! Do you jump? We'll be holding an Xtreme Sports session at NAB Post Plus in NYC in a couple weeks; skydiving videography is part of the course.
Would love to do a jump w/you if you're anywhere where it's warm over the next six...

I just checked the stats on a recent Seagate notebook drive and it's non-operating shock rating is 900G. Just a tiny bit of padding around the unit (particularly at the corners as that is almost always what hits first) would protect them from G loads like that. The auto-retract system is designed to park the heads so the drive is sort of in it's non-operating state where the tolerances are higher.

Darn Sony is trying to get ALL of my money!

I just checked the stats on a recent Seagate notebook drive and it's non-operating shock rating is 900G. Aha ! That ties in almost perfectly with my calcualtion that it will undergo an approx. 980G deceleration when dropped from a 1metre height onto a SOLID surface where it decelerates to zero in 1mm (1mm probably principally due to material flexing etc....the concrete ain't moving..).

Sony quote that it can survive drops from 1metre, so that pretty much ties in for the "max. 900G" shock.

ps. we're specifically back onto the DR-60 issue, so i felt that i can post again on that !!

I agree that 900G is not realistic, but just a tiny bit of padding goes a long way. Change the surface dropped onto from concrete to carpet and 1-meter should be no problem. Personally, I would want to add padding that changes the safety zone to the height of a tripod...

I agree that 900G is not realistic, but just a tiny bit of padding goes a long way. Change the surface dropped onto from concrete to carpet and 1-meter should be no problem. Personally, I would want to add padding that changes the safety zone to the height of a tripod...I agree some padding goes a long way. eg. a 2mm-thick rubber surround would lessen impact from about 980G to about 327G (concrete hit).

In all these scenarios, so much really depends on orientation of the hit and such like. At the end of the day, i have never dropped any camcorder or significant accessory, and i don't think that anyone will be too keen to drop their US$1100+ (approx.) DR-60 onto ANY surface, however trusting they were in Sony's drop-protection..

Martin makes an excellent point about where the heads pysically are when it's dropped: over the disk platter or not will be critical.