He's a guy still in school, he has done music videos and a few shorts.

I want to shoot our movie using one of the prosumer cam, so HDV or the HVX.

He's totally against the idea and things that these cameras are prosumer
quality and with it comes a prosumer attitude with the crew and actors. He thinks they don't stand up in the HD field.

He wants to go cinealta or nothing.

I'm not a DP, but I disagree. What do you think?
Thanks
Andrea

Find someone else, or better yet, have him supply the camera at his own cost.

Mike

I'll state that this is just my opinion, so take it for that.

Perhaps, since this DoP is still in school, him insisting on using a Cinealta is his method of getting experience on that gear on your dime. Does the DoP have experience using the Sony? Varicam? 35?

It is YOUR project after all and if the Cinealta doesn't fit in your budget, neither does this particular DoP. Unless this guy brings something tremendous to the table, I agree with Mike.

He's right.

OK .... if it's YOUR movie project, you can shoot on whatever camera you want.

Yes, with the right experience and practice and comfort level, you CAN shoot with an HDV or HVX camera (which are indeed prosumer ... nothing "wrong" with that) and get stunning images, and cast and crew CAN adapt to working with a small camera (helps to add a matte box with barn doors and a few extra hard drive cases to the back ;) ). Most of all, you'll likely save a bundle of money that can make or break your production budget.

Still, the experience and imagery of shooting HD with something of CineAlta caliber or better IS different. The images do have a different quality and the cast/crew attitudes are responsive to the high-end gear.
I have worked with the same groups of people on different projects, some with XL2s on tripods, and others using CineAlta F950 on a Fischer dolly.
Assuming you have someone who knows how to use it, a CineAlta (or the like) DOES make a difference. Don't discount it.

In the end, you need a DP and a camera.
If this guy says "CineAlta or nothing", what you really hear is "CineAlta or someone else."

Perhaps, since this DoP is still in school, him insisting on using a Cinealta is his method of getting experience on that gear on your dime. Does the DoP have experience using the Sony? Varicam? 35?

It was the same when I went to film school... the only guy in class who wanted to be a dp wanted to shoot a music video that I was going to do as my class project...

I was given some different film stocks by two different film company reps and this guy wanted to shoot all the stock just for the sake of seeing the difference between the stocks because he had never shot Fuji before...

If it doesn't fit your budget, it doesn't fit your budget.
End of story.

And a good DOP shouldn't need a CineAlta to create good images...

Best regards,

What I feel is missing here are the following questions:

1) how do you want it to look (and I do mean type of look, not just 'good')

2) is this your first movie

3) distribution method for your movie

Some other questions that have been asked (budget being the most important)
are important as well. The reasons I ask the questions above are:

1) if you want a tv news look, no need to go with a high-end camera. Same goes for the blairwitch kind of look etc.

2) if it is your first movie I suggest you shoot a few shorts on anything you can get your hands on to get experience. The first ones will probably not turn out as you hope they'll do. No need to spend a lot of cash

3) if distribution is to normal DVD / TV then you can ask yourself if you need HD. It may be nice to shoot HD if you can afford it, but if you can't pay for it then shoot with a good SD camera. It's not a sin :)

Hopefully you get my drift...

Good points Rob. So many people having an opportunity to shoot a "movie" fail to understand all that is involved in "shooting a movie." As you've detailed, it's not only about having a story and a DP, but there's a lot more to it. Not unlike when you first started tinkering with video and realize if the audio sucks, then the project likely will as well.

He's a guy still in school, he has done music videos and a few shorts.

What school? Diva Filmmakers in Training (DFT).....

Attitude is set by the director, with help from the producer and dp. I vote for nothing for this DP and get a new one.

I agree with Rob's suggestions...

But, if you do get the Cinealta...why not get a DP that has experience with it. I wouldn't spend all that money on a camera, just to put a student behind it...unless I was really confident in his abilities.

Plus I think it would be fun to tell him "You're right about the camera, so I decided to get the Cinealta, and a real DP" ;)

P.S.
I just directed a feature using the "Prosumer" Canon XL-H1 and none of the crew seemed to have a problem with it...everyones attitiude was completely professional. :)

yes, thank you all for your advice.
That kid is totally out of his mind.

I'm not planning to use cinealta, but I do plan to use either a HD-110 or a V1 after I know what it can do.

the piece is very much like The Celebration, which is a Danish movie called Festen, in Danish.

So low action, only two locations, very few exteriors and all the lighting will be beautifully controlled.

I have experience with the DVX100 and I did a couple of 16mm shorts, so I'm not a "real" beginner, but I don't consider myself a pro either. I thought I'd have a DP. OF course I can't afford real pro and I thought about students. Most of not all of them are lunatics. I've checked several schools on the East Coast and those kids with no reel or just a few music video think they can ask big bucks for their first movie. I just don't understand the mentality.

Anyway, thanks for your feedback and I like what somebody suggested, tell him that he's right about Cinealta, but that I'll get a real DP to use the cam.
I think I'm just going to tell him that.

Of course I'd like Cinealta, but I just can't rent the cam needed for 4 weeks, no way. OF course I'd like the idea to transfer to film, but I do think that the JVC HD110 should allow me to do that. Don't you think?
Thanks
A.

Good to hear you've shot some stuff before Andrea. All the best with your project!

You don't need a CineAlta, though that's a broad term. The F900, F900r, F950, F350, F330, etc. are all designated CineAlta. I'm assuming F900. My opinion is this, the F900 is an incredibly powerful tool and I would only trust someone with a lot of experience with it. I don't imagine that someone is a student.

The Sony Z1 is a good choice.

heath

when i started in the business i refused to shoot video .. if i was going to work long hours for free/low $ then it was FILM or nothing ...

a hvx , hdv, hd110 are ok ...AND they just don't have a cineAlta 900 image.
if i was starting out today & in school/college , had already shot with HVX , HDV ,or HD100 and somebody approached me to shoot on either of those camera's i would probably say the same- CineAlta or nothing ...

you and the DP both have to get something out of the project .. he wants something different for his reel/expeinece .. and you get to produce/direct - maybe you can agree -maybe not .. can't afford a agreeable camera then find another DP ... we all have our little perks ..

Heath and Donatello, I just can't agree with both of you.

The Z1 is the cam I'd avoid. The least I'll do for a narrative is to go progressive, so it's either the HD 110 or the V1. In controlled lighting the low light ability of the V1 is not a problem.

I'm sorry to say, but when you're a DP you have to prove that YOU are the one who's good. Not the equipment. We all know what Cinealta can do. Why not use 70mm while you're at it? The woman, I think her name is schreiver, who shot November just had a DVX100! IF that movie looks good it's because of her, so just think if she'd had Cinealta! Cinealta is a tool that must be deserved. I think you must have shown as a DP that you could do something decent with another format, don't you think?

The Texas Chainsaw massacre is probably filmed in 35mm. You'd have to pay me to go see it filmed in 200mm if that format existed!

When that kid, who only shot music video in DV, talked about Cinealta, I laugh. Then, it's human, I needed to be conforted by other people's opinion, because even though I've shot I'm not a DP. I totally agree with what people have said here, but frankly I feel sorry that out of all the HDV cam out there the Z1 is the one Heath can come up with.

Thank you all for your feedback, I feel much better
A.

Andrea,

You're contradicting yourself. You say it's the DP, then you diss the Z1. Check out this still:

http://904am.com/photos.php?pic=23

or this:

http://904am.com/photos.php?pic=48

We shot on the Z1, 50i with CineFrame 25 activated. Then, we captured, cut, and conformed to 23.98 (24p); my DP color corrected the stills and voila. Don't judge a camera until you try it, and make sure you or your DP have the talent to use it.

28 Days Later... was shot on a PAL XL1.

heath

I'm going to agree with Don.

I also agree it's a little rich to say "F900 or bust" for somebody with little experience, but it's a matter of setting your limits. Let me explain.

Once upon a time I was a camera assistant, working only with film cameras. I did this from 1991 to 2000. I gained a lot of experience, I got to do things very few cameramen (in the greater sense) get to do. I rigged 35mm cameras strapped to the noses of Indy cars (at the Indy500, no less), went up in helicopters with Arri 435s, operated steadicam with Movicams, etc etc ad nauseam. Somebody showed up to a shoot I was operating 35mm on with a XL-1 once, everybody crowded around to look at the cool toy.

This was about the time I was starting to operate cameras on these big shoots on my own...I did steadicam for a while. But I was getting calls to DP smaller projects, and I was wanting to build a reel. Building a film reel is a very expensive proposition. I could borrow good 35mm cams off my paid shoots, even cobble together short ends to shoot on. But everything else is expensive, I had prior and knew many people who spent thousands of their own cash building their dp/director reels on film. I did it a few times on my own.

So the year is 1999, DV is relatively new, and here comes this camera (the XL-1) that will allow me to build my DP reel and not look like video. It will look like bad 16mm, but so what? So I buy an XL-1, move to Los Angeles to direct and dp my own music videos, and learn to love shooting progressive video and editing my own work at home.

Guess what? I haven't touched a film camera in a work situation since 2000. It sucks. I'm WAY more than qualified. And it happened mostly because I let it happen, and I never set limits on what I would and wouldn't do. Hey, you wanna shoot DVX? I love that camera, let's go. Etc. etc. I'm a photographer, and I'm not a technology snob. But it's pigeonholed me. There's a lot of guys out there shooting only the big guns that are worse than me. I made a major career shift and embraced the DV revolution simultaneously; I never thought it would limit what people thought I was capable of.

And so that's what happens. Sometimes if you want to set yourself up at a level, then you set limits and that's it. Sure, the kid above might seem arrogant, but he'll keep it up and if he's any good (even mediocre), he'll probably eventually have a crapload of credits, shot only on 35mm, F900, and Varicam. And a day rate better than he would have otherwise.

You know as somebody who went to Art School that taught film production I always felt it was more important to work on great projects with a great script and great actors and not worry about the camera. I mean of course the camera has to be decent but once you fill a certain level of the specs and features you are looking for in the camera the rest is all about creativity. I was not a film student but I was a visual effects student and even with us we were more concerned about not working on lame projects then we were about what it was shot with. Hey back then everything was shot with interlaced DV but we didn't mind as long as the content was sweet.

Nate,

Don't be so hard on yourself. I know guys that shoot music videos with the F900 on the weekends, then shoot a feature on the Varicam, then shoot another feature on the Sony Z1, then follow it up with more F900 music videos.

heath

frankly I feel sorry that out of all the HDV cam out there the Z1 is the one Heath can come up with.Nonsense. There is no need to feel sorry. After all, the equipment has no bearing whatsoever on image quality... that impact is made by the people who operate it.

Nate,

Don't be so hard on yourself.

I understand my post may be construed as little bit of a pity party, but it was kinda central to the idea that this kid is not making the same mistake I did. I worked my way up once and paid my dues when I was in my 20s. Now I'm doing it again as a shooter, because I didn't set limits.

This has turned into an interesting discussion.

The film student may have a master plan that may serve him well, or he may just be another arrogant film school shmuck who will find himself scrapping to get jobs in the "real world" with the cameras he is turning his nose up at now. Chances are that unless he is especially gifted, he wouldn't have been able to make images with the F900 that would look as good as a working cameraman can produce with the DVX (such as Nancy Schreiber did with November--Andrea take note, it's a quick search on IMDB to come up with the correct name!)

That said, there's nothing wrong with pushing for the best format/camera you can get on a project, but the budget has to be able to support it otherwise it's an unreasonable battle to pursue (and you'll only be hurting your grip/electric budget in the meantime) The bottom line SHOULD be, is this film something I really want to do? Is it a great script, do I have faith in the director and the production? The smart money says that if you believe in a project, it's worth shooting even if it is small format--and if you can make DV or HDV look good, you can kill with the larger formats.

The idea that actors and crew don't take a project seriously if the camera doesn't look impressive is full-on BS in my experience. What garners the respect is the right attitude and skillset in a DP, not the biggest mattebox. But of course if the actors and crew in question are insecure newbies, then maybe they will have some chip on their shoulder about the camera--but that's their problem. There have been too many successful projects shot in small format for any grownup to pitch a 'tude.

look as good as a working cameraman can produce with the DVX (such as Nancy Schreiber did with November--. . .


Or Wim Wenders with Land Of Plenty.

Not sure about Nancy, but I think WW could have chosen just about any camera he wanted. There must have been a reason to choose a "prosumer" camera.

The idea that actors and crew don't take a project seriously if the camera doesn't look impressive is full-on BS in my experience. What garners the respect is the right attitude and skillset in a DP, not the biggest mattebox. But of course if the actors and crew in question are insecure newbies, then maybe they will have some chip on their shoulder about the camera--but that's their problem. There have been too many successful projects shot in small format for any grownup to pitch a 'tude.

Yeah Charles, this would have been a good place to insert a shameless plug for your DP work on the AMEX commercials with an XL1s, featuring that newbie actor Jerry Seinfeld. ;-)

-gb-

I like Rob's, Thomas' and Charles' posts... a lot of things I was thinking about.

If you're on a limited budget and if it comes down to I can afford the Cine Alta for a week or if I shoot with a XL H1, HD 100 or HVX 200 I can get a four week shoot. I'd go for the four week shoot.

Not sure if you're making a feature, short, or what. But it sounds like you're more into being a producer or director or both rather than a dp.

So I'd go with someone who can shoot, who's not a diva and make the best project that shows your skills, as a producer, director or even writer on a smaller format camera.

I think people (even buyers) will be more impressed with a great story told with a smaller camera... than something shot with a larger camera that looks pretty... but you're bored to death because the story sucked.

Myself I notice when I start picking apart a movie when I'm watching it is when the story sucks. So the sercet is to have a good story with a good dp and crew who can bring your vision to life.

One other thing to consider is that a camera choice like this doesn't just affect the shoot. You're whole pipeline has to be able to digest the results.

Maybe you're post production team and gear is in place to handle either format, maybe it's not, but it's worth mentioning that shooting the most amazing story and imagery ever on an F900 won't do you much good if you don't have access to the gear, people and shear capacity to capture and handle it in post.

projector, screen, and optics. I THINK the copy must have been remastered because it was flawless as regard to scratches, splices and skips.

It was not as sharp and detailed on the screen as 28 Days. The optics it was shot with are obviously soft (at least to me, a Nikon shooter with multiple F2 Photomic bodies and lenses, and my own color darkroom with a durst M800)

Virtually ANY prosumer HDV camera will give you better detail, optics and sound than the equipment that made Casablanca. Oh, yeah, and color.

so, andrea, the EQUIPMENT is holding you back?

This has turned into an interesting discussion.



I tend to agree with Charles, Nate and a few others on here. I am by no means a tech savy individual but I do have some basic insight into these kind of situations. I'm a producer of sorts among other things and with that comes the hiring of crews, namely "keys". I've found that since the so-called digital revolution started, more and more people are tending to call themselves or at the very least see themselves as "pro" shooters. It's one thing to have your ( insert fave cam here) with some footage which you want to call a reel, it's another to say you can handle the pressure of being on a real set. Please don't anybody take offense to this but I find it difficult to hire anybody straight out of film school, other then to put them into entry level positions so that they may learn the nuances of our crazy buisness.

I'll give one example here. Back in 2001 my friend, an actor that is quite well known wanted to give a kid he met as a PA on one of his previous productions a chance at directing his first feature. Said actor would star at a reduced rate in exchage for a minor back-end percentage and a chance to share a writing credit with the kid. So, they cobbled together about $1.2 million for the entire production, from prep to post. This is when I was called in, I'm Canadian and we have here a favourable tax credit system to help stretch your dollar as well as other incentives for first time filmmakers, provided you have a Canadian producer/production house as a partner and at least 75% of principal photography is shot in Canada. My actor friend introduced me to the team down in LA and asked if I would do it for them, I said yes. Now when you hire a producer as in any other position, you do so because you trust they can do the job. Well this one wasn't the case, the director decided he wanted to bring all his friends from film school up to Canada to work on the film. I explained that the money would be better served going up on screen as opposed to paying for travel/accomodations/per diems etc... This is when I discovered that the kids (director) father was our financier, great...nothing like working on a tight leash pulling in favours for a bunch of spoiled film school grads who had absolutely zero real time production experience.

Anyways, to make a real long story shorter. I fired the DP, Production Designer and SFX team ( they blew a wall off of a building which in turn knocked out power to several thousand people for a few hours), at that point I laid down the law and said, I bring in my people or I'm out. We could salvage some footage (35mm) and tighten the schedule up and still make it happen. They let their arrogance get the better of them, so I walked and so did the lead actor.

The moral is...nothing, I repeat NOTHING can replace experience...no matter how talented you think you are, there's always somebody waiting around the corner with more talent ready to step up to the plate.


PS: I forgot one more thing...to this day I still haven't been paid. My airfare, scouting, hiring of crew, locking down locations and offices, casting etc...and I don't expect to ever be, I love this wacky business we call film production...so to bite the bullet once in awhile is a small price to pay to be able to do something you love.

newbies should read this thread...

we all make choices ..Andrea is talking to the next DP and the young DP that wanted a cineAlta is looking for their next experience ... when we are students or starting off in the business we want all the experiences we can get .. at some point you want to try something NEW - so you make a choice to go for it - maybe you find somebody that will go along maybe you don't ...

IMO to move forward you always need to be learning .. when you start off every day is a learning experience after a year maybe you learn something new a few times a month ? seems the longer you're in the business the more you get hired to repeat what you've already done in the past.
we all do favors ( free) for friends and friends of friends .. and free/low $ is good if you are learning .. there's only so many times that you can work for free/low$ and not get any new learning out of it .. many times on these you do meet new friends/connections ..
in general the business plays it safe - they go with experience .. in the commercial world you do your "thing" .. if you shoot metal ( cars) that's why they hire you and pay 2500-5000 day .. chances are you are not going to get hired to shoot food ... if you shoot food chances are you are not going to get hired to shoot metal ...
each time we complete a job we know what worked and what didn't .. on the next job we might make a request/demand :IE got to have a experienced 1st AC for whole project ..sound dept has got to have a experienced boom man ( too many shots no good because of boom dropping into frame on low $$ features)..

yes, experience is king, or queen.

It's going to be a DVX100b, a HD-110 or a V1. Probably the JVC will be the one.

Thanks for all your comments.

"it's pigeonholed me. There's a lot of guys out there shooting only the big guns that are worse than me"

i think what happens is ( lets say a person ) if you shoot $2500 music video's for a long time you do get stuck in that price... looking over the past 25years + i have to say if a producer has 2500 to do a project and you worked for him 5-6 times, that when that producer has 15k for a music video they are NOT going to give you a call - they are going to go to those that work 15k music video's all the time ... once you move up to working in 15k music video's with different producers and then one day they have 50K again they are NOT going to call on you because you are a 15k music video guy/gal .. your work may look excellent but bottom line for most Producers if i need a 500 day guy/gal i hire a 500 a day guy .. if i need a 2500 a day guy/gal i'm not hiring a 500 day guy/gal - i'm getting a 2500 day guy/gal ... now one can argue all they want that it's not the camera BUT most that shoot DVX are getting paid on the lower end of the scale and most producer play it SAFE - do i take a chance with person that shoots $2500 projects for my 100K project ? or do i get the guy that has shoot 100k projects ... every now and then you get somebody that will take a chance ...
one of my breaks came shooting a Nike spot .. the director wanted me - the ad agency said there was nothing on my reel that looked like what they wanted .. for days the director and ad agency went back and forth - 2 days before the shoot the Director said this is my DP you either go with him or find another director .. went out to texas for 12 days .. it all went very good ... when i was supervising CC the spot with the ad agency producer another producer from a different ad agency was there with a director - they mentioned to the nike producer that their DP for a spot that was shooting in 2 days backed out - did they know a DP - Nike producer introduced me to them and i shoot the spot - they never saw a sample reel - they only saw the clips we were CC'ing .. once you get into that circle you charge the going rate= $2500 day without camera( you do have to produce good images) - you do NOT go back to charging 500 day ( unless it's a friend) ..Producer's feel more secure if they know others pay the rate ( plus you have to have spots that are near their budgets)
i know a excellent film DP that was getting 2500 day back in early 90's .. they moved out of LA to SF .. they started shooting Video for video rates ( think it was 800 day including camera) after 14 years out of LA they are making 1200 day including camera ... nothing wrong with 1200 day BUT 1200 day DP'ing project do NOT look like $2500 day DP'ing projects - you can say the 1200 day guy/w camera can light better then 2500 day DP BUT it's the WHOLE project .. more then likely if you are doing a $1200 Dp rate video spot
the total budget might be in the 10-20k range ... $2500+ day DP might be shooting a 150k project ... and in the end many can say well the 20k spot looks like a 50k spot AND i usally find the 150k spot has much more production value ...
i usually find those shooting with DVX type camera's are shooting with it not by choice but because of budget ... at some point in ones career you will get to choose the DVX over cineAlta because it suits the project ...
AND all projects have their budget restrictions doesn't matter if it's 100k or 1mil budgets you're still asking for this light or that camera thing and being told it's not in the budget ...
in general you have a circle of friends .. you all tend to be working in the same budget area .. to move to up to the next budget area you ( or one of your friends) get into the next circle of higher budgets .. you/they bring along your friends a few at a time into that budget area etc ...

Thanks for sharing your experience with the "unwashed" Don. It is indeed helpful with regard to our next steps and what we should look out for.

Many thanks indeed.

Tim

"it's pigeonholed me. There's a lot of guys out there shooting only the big guns that are worse than me"

i think what happens is ( lets say a person ) if you shoot $2500 music video's for a long time you do get stuck in that price...

And I let it happen for just a little bit too long.

I re-read my post last night and had an overwhelming urge to edit it down and take the crybaby aspect out, but there's not an edit button anymore. Lots of people would be quite happy to be where I am.

To clarify my earlier post, my greater point was many people who take the path I did (Assistant Cameraman to DP or director) never take such a dip in their projects/income because they maintain their standards ("F900 or bust"). I did not, and I regret it. What seems arrogant to some people is just making sure they stay where they want to be. My situation isn't so dire. My biggest music vid has only been $8k, but my concerts are getting much much bigger than that, so it's ok.

I knew very well there's pigeonholing in all aspects of the business, I'm guilty of doing it to the shooters I hire for concerts. Sometimes I suspect I'm right to do so, other times I imagine I'm being shortsighted.

So my very personal post above is a little embarrassing, but I thank you Don for pitching in and sharing your story too. A thread full of opinions is much more meaningful with some personal experiences included to back it up...and generally, because of the competitive nature of our business, it's very difficult to get the real deal out of people.

"it's pigeonholed me. There's a lot of guys out there shooting only the big guns that are worse than me"


First of all, that opinion is yours, and probably yours alone. It may be and probably is quite true, but I would think that if it were the opinion of many others, you would be getting offers to shoot on the "BIG" cameras.

You must progress with your skills and your range, even if know one is handing you the opportunity. Just like getting out of film school, no one is going to hand it to you just like that. To move up you must get "lucky" or you must make your own "luck!"

Think about when you first started, did you just get offered a job straight out of school? Or, did you get some equipment on your own and do some self-promotion, and a lot of work for free. If you need to do work with the "Big Guns" to break out of the "pigeonholed" area, just do it! Do the work for free again, and maybe you'll have to supply the camera! Remember your humble beginnings and work the same way. At least you have other work to get you by. Few people out there want to pay you to learn!

It's like someone on welfare, sitting on their front porch and waiting for someone to come teach him or her a skill. It ain't a gona happen!!!! Get out there and do it yourself!

If that person wants to do a $2,500 music video, fine! Then ask them how they would like to do it with a Cinealta or 35mm instead?!?!?! Pay for the camera upgrade and get it on your resume! That's how life works sometimes.

Your complaints about being pigeonholed, are equal to those who would complain they are just out of school and can't get a great job as a DP!

I may know little about being a DP, or for that matter just a decent camera operator, but I taught myself and propelled myself into being a very good industial machine shop owner. By persistance and very hard work, studying at every free moment, promoting myself, buying equipment I could not really afford, and taking on jobs that I was scared to death of, I did make it. I did many a job for a loss to learn or promote my shop. In the end, I was the go-to-guy for many other machines shops in town, when they couldn't figure out how to do a job.

Come on Don, get out there and hustle! Rent, borrow, steal, (OK-don't steal), but get your hands on a better camera and promote yourself. Sacrifice like you did before!

:)

Mike

Mike, that was my quote Don made, so your commentary is to me.

First of all, that opinion is yours, and probably yours alone. It may be and probably is quite true, but I would think that if it were the opinion of many others, you would be getting offers to shoot on the "BIG" cameras.

Well, I dunno, you tell me. Go to my site, watch my stuff. I maintain that I'm not doing more work with big cams because I've failed to 'make it happen', not because my skills are insufficient.

There is truth to your admonishments. The film school student part is a little rough though...I've 34 now and my first paid gig was Rescue 911 when I was 16.

If that person wants to do a $2,500 music video, fine! Then ask them how they would like to do it with a Cinealta or 35mm instead?!?!?! Pay for the camera upgrade and get it on your resume! That's how life works sometimes.

Absolutely. The other way to get to the same point is not to accept the jobs that are not on the cameras/gear/budget level you want. One method is much cheaper.

Your complaints about being pigeonholed, are equal to those who would complain they are just out of school and can't get a great job as a DP!

I disagree. Pigeonholing happens to people who have done a great deal of work. A student has done none. Whining is annoying for sure, and that's why I wanted to edit my post. Instead, I clarified in my post above this.

I may know little about being a DP, or for that matter just a decent camera operator, but I taught myself and propelled myself into being a very good industial machine shop owner. By persistance and very hard work, studying at every free moment, promoting myself, buying equipment I could not really afford, and taking on jobs that I was scared to death of, I did make it.

I think both myself and Don could say the same.

Rent, borrow, steal, (OK-don't steal), but get your hands on a better camera and promote yourself. Sacrifice like you did before!

Good advice, seriously. I did. I took a large chunk of my billables this year and bought an XDCAM. Forcing the issue, basically. I have the skills to back it up, so hopefully this will make something happen that should have happened in 2001.

Make it happen Nate, make it happen!

Mike

Make it happen Nate, make it happen!

And to that end, one of the philosophies and my original point is, the method is "F900 or bust", sometimes. As arrogant as it may seem.

And to that end, one of the philosophies and my original point is, the method is "F900 or bust", sometimes. As arrogant as it may seem.


But to that end, do that with people you do not know or work with already. What I mean is that the only person or persons who can pigeonhole you are yourself and those who already know you. Strangers do not know squat! That's why I said to do your own stuff and present that to them. A mix maybe, but put the BIG camera stuff in there too.

Mike

But to that end, do that with people you do not know or work with already. What I mean is that the only person or persons who can pigeonhole you are yourself and those who already know you. Strangers do not know squat! That's why I said to do your own stuff and present that to them. A mix maybe, but put the BIG camera stuff in there too.

Exactly, and you just spelled out what I already knew, but wasn't consciously thinking about. That's helpful, for real.

So hopefully, between the lines, we've illustrated in a way when it's appropriate to stick to your guns.

I don't know if this comforts you, Nate, but I didn't think your original post had 'cry baby'-effect, but it was just personal and honest and sincere real information.

You are right that posting such personal information can be very useful on boards, when it's not used wrongly, as with your post.
It's like a teacher that I had, that used to always tell personal anecdotes from when he was on a set. Some other students resented it, thinking: "I don't need to hear this, just give me my lesson", but I always found it interesting and I could learn from those anecdotes, because it gives you a sight on what can happen on a set.

Best regards,

also another thing that happens when we get into a working circle .. we get use to the income , we become comfortable knowing work will be here each month ... when you decide to make a change from AC to operator , or operator to DP or change your day rate from 500 day to 1000 day - that regular schedule and income $$ may change to slower/lower $$ for a time ?? and that is a little scary for many especially if one lives from paycheck to paycheck... i find those that are ready for a change & hang in there are doing very good within a year ( 1st few months can be rough)

you have to be open to when opportunity knocks ...
some never hear the knock ( many times it's not a knock- more a light tap).

i think it always good to look back over ones career every few years and look at different angles .. look at whats working and not working for you etc ...

"there's pigeonholing in all aspects of the business, I'm guilty of doing it to the shooters I hire for concerts. Sometimes I suspect I'm right to do so, other times I imagine I'm being shortsighted"

if i was director or DP on a concert i would surround myself with the BEST persons i can get ... it's a little easier to give a new person a break/chance if you have worked with them before ( maybe there were 1st AC 2nd unit on one of your projects) , if you haven't then you could be putting yourself at risk !!! every now & then we all go for it and give somebody new a chance -some work out, some don't ... Producer hire us because they know we can do the job - producer expects us to recommend persons that can get the job done ... we all tend to play it safe ... AND we all play it unsafe once in awhile ...

if i was director or DP on a concert i would surround myself with the BEST persons i can get ...

I've been bringing up as many people with me from the DVX days, but I'm learning the hard way that not all of them are sharp enough. In fact, I'm looking into replacing damn near everybody save my producer and 2 or 3 other people. $80k concerts should have the guys that shot Rattle & Hum, not some of the guys I've hired that can't be bothered to treat 90 minutes like my life depends on it.

Despite that, that part of my life is moving upward.

Cinealta? Phooey. I need a DP who specializes in cellphones:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/4282265.html

Nate and Don,

Awesome insights. If the guy Andrea is working with had the experience, insight and patience that you two have, then he's got every right to work on a specific level. Lord knows I plan to. If he is fresh outta school or a student, then he better get much better at selling himself and working on projects that match his vision.

...the piece is very much like The Celebration, which is a Danish movie called Festen, in Danish.

So low action, only two locations, very few exteriors and all the lighting will be beautifully controlled.

Remember that "The Celebration" was part of the Dogme 95 movement, which had some pretty strong sentiments about how to make a film- they actually wrote a manifesto with rules, one of which was no artificial lighting. Having "beautifully controlled" lighting might take you away from that kind of feel.

...or perhaps you meant it will be beautiful how controlled the lighting will be?!