http://panasonic.biz/sav/p2/ag-hpx500/index.html

2/3" shoulder-mount, interchangeable lenses, 1080 & 720, variable frame rates, universal PAL/NTSC/50i/60i switchable, DV/DVCPRO25/DVCPRO50/DVCPRO-HD, HD-SDI, TC IN/OUT, Genlock...

Interesting, Barry. This appears to be the camera touted as the HDPC-2000 that Panasonic announced at NAB this year. Unless I'm missing something, but the specs seem to be the same.

-gb-

At DVExpo, at the center "prototype table", Panasonic had 2 similar non-working samples.

Both were 2/3", both shot P2. The engineer (obviously from Japan) attempting to explain it to me said the one I was looking at was targeted for $20k. I walked away pretty impressed, and then spotted out of the corner of my eye the second unit, which he explained to me was the same thing, except better...using the new MPEG based codecs Panasonic has been talking about.

So one was the HPX500, and one was the 2000, I suppose?

Same market space as the XDCAM HD or a little higher, sounds like these will be very good cameras.

I imagine the 500 will have the same chips as the HDX-900...a very good setup but not quite like the XDCAM HD units.

I imagine the 500 will have the same chips as the HDX-900...a very good setup but not quite like the XDCAM HD units.

You're quite right, Nate. Not like the XDCAM system, better. The best XDCAM has to offer is only a 1/2" inch lens mount, not 2/3" inch and shoots HDV, not DVCPRO. That translates into:

- The typical 4:2:0 HDV color space, not DVCPRO 4:2:2
- HDV workflow issues and render times
- Smaller chipset; less image real-estate, lower quality
- Fewer lens options

XDCAM is however the only other native-tapeless system on the market today, which has it's benefits, but if you price what an XDCAM deck costs compared to the various options P2 offers, there's no contest in the bang-for-the-buck category. And if you price out an entire production and post hardware setup based on XDCAM needs you'll be spending a LOT more money than a similarly configured P2 system - not to mention spending more time in POST waiting for HDV renders.

There is one major feature option that the F350 offers that no other ENG cam does: AutoFocus. (requires special lens that mates to F350 controller)

We gave the F350 and the entire XDCAM system a serious look when considering which tapeless system to use; Sony has created it's niche with XDCAM and the bodies have impressive features, but not so impressive when compared to the Panny offerings.

Barry,

If I read this right (as much as can be gleaned from a Japanese page) and this body will do over-under crank (the page mentions Varicam), then I've just found the perfect upgrade path from the HVX. Is this the same *approximate* release date as the HPX2100 and 16GB cards or is it slated for Q2/Q3?

You're quite right, Nate. Not like the XDCAM system, better. The best XDCAM has to offer is only a 1/2" inch lens mount, not 2/3" inch and shoots HDV, not DVCPRO. That translates into:

- The typical 4:2:0 HDV color space, not DVCPRO 4:2:2
- HDV workflow issues and render times
- Smaller chipset; less image real-estate, lower quality
- Fewer lens options


Well, thanks for trying to sell me on the Pana offerings, but I made my decision on these cameras a few months ago, if you look at my signature :-)

I'm sure the Pana will be a great camera, and will be perfect for some people. In the meantime, can we try not to paint it as "XDCAM bad, HPX good"?

Agreed, Nate -- folks, this is not an "XDCAM vs. P2" platform war. We have a dedicated forum for each format. Choose the one you like. We're not going to re-hash a very tired Ford vs. Chevy argument here. Please discuss the gear and how to use it. Leave the platform wars for other internet sites to battle over. Thanks in advance,

You're quite right, Nate. Not like the XDCAM system, better. The best XDCAM has to offer is only a 1/2" inch lens mount, not 2/3" inch and shoots HDV, not DVCPRO. That translates into:

- The typical 4:2:0 HDV color space, not DVCPRO 4:2:2
- HDV workflow issues and render times
- Smaller chipset; less image real-estate, lower quality
- Fewer lens options

I'm sorry you took the time to write this, Robert. Your information is completely inaccurate.

You have fallen into that same notion as others and think that XDCAM HD is HDV. It's not. It's MP@HL. That's Main Profile @ High Level. The 35mbs data rate is a variable data rate, not fixed so higher motion frames get the majority of the bandwidth.

The 35mb codec is also accepted by Discovery HD for 'full, unlimited aquisition' of program material. HDV is allowed to be only a small portion of acquisition, regardless of delivery method.

And finally, let's remember one thing. There will be NO PLATFORM BASHING on DVINFO! If a particular system doesn't meet your needs, that's fine. But no need to come in and get into a 'my choice is better than your choice' debate.

-gb-

to get back to the Barry's original thread,
when is the HPX 500 will be available ?
sounds very interresting.

And if you price out an entire production and post hardware setup based on XDCAM needs you'll be spending a LOT more money than a similarly configured P2 system


i'm sorry, but what about the cost of media and archival of the media, where was that in your budget?. XDCAM is cheap P2, is not.
and that fact that xdcam is certified by discovery for full aquisition, and (i might very well be wrong on this)DVCproHD is not?

You're quite right, Nate. Not like the XDCAM system, better. The best XDCAM has to offer is only a 1/2" inch lens mount, not 2/3" inch and shoots HDV, not DVCPRO. That translates into:

I heard that there will be 2/3" cameras for the XDCAM HD next year.

Anyways back to the panny's are you sure they will be in there 20's? because it sounds like they are pretty dam cheap compared to the older digibetas back in the days

Anyways back to the panny's are you sure they will be in there 20's? because it sounds like they are pretty dam cheap compared to the older digibetas back in the days

Jemore, the Panasonic press conference at NAB included an announcement of a camera dubbed the AJ-HDC2000 which is a P2 only, 2/3, shoulder mount camera shooting HD with a body price targeted around $26K, just slightly higher than the F350 body.

-gb-

Two different products, but I don't know what all there is to know about both of 'em.

They're both 2/3", they're both P2/DVCPRO-HD.

The HPC2100 (or HPC2000?) is 24p/30p/60i in 1080 & 720, and can take the AVC-Intra optional codec card. No VFR, as far as I know.

The HPX500 appears to be a 2/3" HVX. It has variable frame rates, and all the modes of the HVX (so 720 and 1080 @24p, 30p, & 60i/60p, plus 720pN, plus DVCPRO50 etc). And it's a world camera, switchable between PAL & NTSC; I don't believe the HPC2100 is.

I don't really know why the HPC2100 should cost more than the HPX500; it looks like the 500 does everything the 2100 does and a whole lot more (perhaps short of the AVC-Intra option?)

As far as availability, the press release said something about April 2007, but until we see a press release in native English I wouldn't be too sure about the exact meaning of any of those statements.

I asked the engineer babysitting the two non-working units, saying "So maybe the better one has higher-res chips?"

He laughed and threw up his hands and said "I cannot say!" (more or less, his english was fledgling)

The HDX/HPX's only concessions to the price seem to be the use of 1280x720 chips (that's a guess on the HPX, obviously). Seems Sony has decided smaller, high res chips is their bet, while Pana thinks bigger, lower res chips is the ticket. Other than those issues, the cams occupy the same market space.

Both the HDX and F350 make awesome pics. When I realized that cheaper full size HD cams were coming a couple years ago (cheaper than $80k+), I always assumed the mid range was where we'd see it first ($50-60k-ish). All this is a very exciting progression.

There will be NO PLATFORM BASHING on DVINFO! If a particular system doesn't meet your needs, that's fine. But no need to come in and get into a 'my choice is better than your choice' debate.-gb-

Hey, Nate started it! (big laughs) The "...not quite like the XDCAM HD units." dig got me fuzzed and had to repond to that one...

Seriously, no bashing was intended; clearly there is misinformation on both sides as we could debate the realities of XDCAM vs. DVCPRO for hours. In the end, we both have what we want.

I respect you guys have chosen the F350 (and I almost did until I learned it doesn't shoot HD-CAM), so I'll leave it at that.

Seems Sony has decided smaller, high res chips is their bet, while Pana thinks bigger, lower res chips is the ticket.

It's not just about the number of pixels but more importantly, pixel pitch and the physics of light transmission and why more pixels doesn't always mean a better picture.

A direct analogy (from experience) is the 11mp EOS 1Ds (35mm body) compared to a 10mp back for medium format; a same-scene comparo shows there's no comparison - the 10mp Leaf back had much better detail and color than the 35mm image sensor in the 1Ds. That stands true today with the newer hardware: The 16mp 1Ds MKII has less detail and color than the 15mp digi-back for medium format. And that stands up to logic: larger glass elements transmitting more light onto a larger surface area = more information available.

So far, digital technology has not found a way to overcome/outsmart the properties of light transmission and capture - the larger the area you can spread the captured light onto the better the end result.

It's not just about the number of pixels but more importantly, pixel pitch and the physics of light transmission and why more pixels doesn't always mean a better picture.

Yes, I know. All I said above was in light of that.

So far, digital technology has not found a way to overcome/outsmart the properties of light transmission and capture - the larger the area you can spread the captured light onto the better the end result.

There have been a few helpful advances used on various cameras. The Canon XL2 and the Sony Z1 have benefited from better noise reduction due to newer, faster DSP design and algorithms. Suddenly, +3, +6 aren't the evil noise producers they once were.

The second 'bend the rules of physics' item that comes to mind is the microlens technology that actually places a microscopic lens over each pixel on the CCD chip. This contributes to higher sensitivity and sharper pictures. It really helps those tiny pixels on smaller CCD's pull more light into each photosite.

But of course, all things being equal, larger sensors will give better dynamic range and reduced DOF.

-gb-

Two different products, but I don't know what all there is to know about both of 'em.

They're both 2/3", they're both P2/DVCPRO-HD.

The HPC2100 (or HPC2000?) is 24p/30p/60i in 1080 & 720, and can take the AVC-Intra optional codec card. No VFR, as far as I know.

The HPX500 appears to be a 2/3" HVX. It has variable frame rates, and all the modes of the HVX (so 720 and 1080 @24p, 30p, & 60i/60p, plus 720pN, plus DVCPRO50 etc). And it's a world camera, switchable between PAL & NTSC; I don't believe the HPC2100 is.

I don't really know why the HPC2100 should cost more than the HPX500; it looks like the 500 does everything the 2100 does and a whole lot more (perhaps short of the AVC-Intra option?)

Hey Barry, I corrected my original post with the correct model number for the other camera. It's the AJ-HDC2000.

Too much alpha-numeric soup going on in the camera world these days. ;-)

-gb-

Yes, I know. All I said above was in light of that.

Kinda figured we were on the same page; one of these days we're going to work a project together, I can just sense it.

The new Panny's look good. Certainly the new codec will be very helpful with P2.

Regarding CCD's, I think that at this price point there will always be compromise. Perhaps hopefully Red will kickstart some massive progress though.

But aside from CCD's the real winner will be the one that standardises a workflow. The system that every production company and broadcast house can handle. That is what is seriously lacking at the moment, and neither XDCAM or P2 can address that. Yet.

Here are 2 PDF's I found on both the HPX500 and the HPX2100.

You'll notice the tag on the PDF for the 500 says "pre", and lacks the detailed info that the 2100 has. That's because they just announced this body and I'm sure have not completed it's feature set and the actual control layout on the "business" side of the camera.

However, looking at the 2100 I think can give us a glimpse of what we *might* expect on the 500. Either way, the HPX500 looks to really be the HVX's big brother, no doubt. Somebody pinch me.

Has anyone brought up the fact that these cameras are being marketed in different categories by Panasonic?

The "AG" in front of the model means "Pro Line" while "AJ" means "Broadcast".

So when you think of the DVX100, you're thinking of the Pro Line market, but when you think of the VariCam, you're in the Broadcast realm.

This also implies significant price differences.

I would think keeping these 2 markets separate will be an increasing challenge for the manufacturers as we move more towared IT convergence.

Allan Barnwell
Omega Broadcast Group

I'll be checking an actual production model of the HPX2100 on Wednesday week at Digital Media World. I'll ask about the HPX500. A new beta version of Infinity will also be there.

Peter Corbett
Powerhouse Productions

A new beta version of Infinity will also be there.

Take a back brace with you ;-)

Simon

Has anyone brought up the fact that these cameras are being marketed in different categories by Panasonic?

The "AG" in front of the model means "Pro Line" while "AJ" means "Broadcast".

I certainly didn't pick up on that and, you might have just opened up what the real differences will be between the two bodies. The hope, is that the 500 will have a chipset that is either the same or as-good as the 2100, but as you point out in the two distinct marketing targets this probably won't be the case.

So maybe the 500 is getting the VFR capability to make up for not having the best HD chipset? Time will tell...

and that fact that xdcam is certified by discovery for full aquisition, and (i might very well be wrong on this)DVCproHD is not?

DVCPRO HD is certified by Discovery as a good number of their shows are produced on Varicams. I can think of American Choppers off the top of my head but I know there are a good number of others. I think they are still up in the air on P2, but if you can satisfy how to archive it back to tape, there shouldn't be a problem, and even that may change over time.

Hope that helps,

Jan

If I read this right (as much as can be gleaned from a Japanese page) and this body will do over-under crank (the page mentions Varicam), then I've just found the perfect upgrade path from the HVX. Is this the same *approximate* release date as the HPX2100 and 16GB cards or is it slated for Q2/Q3?

The approximate release date is June/July of 2007, we should see real product at NAB. The HPX2000 will deliver starting in January/February.

Hope that helps,

Jan

Compared to the price of the VeriCam, the HPX500 is a very good deal. If this keeps up then we may see a much better camera coming out by the end of 2008 being under $10,000.00. Their will be a lot of new Producers popping up.

Compared to the price of the VeriCam, the HPX500 is a very good deal. If this keeps up then we may see a much better camera coming out by the end of 2008 being under $10,000.00. Their will be a lot of new Producers popping up.
There already are.

Was there a price listed for the 500, and is the HPX still $26k list (body)?

I've been anxiously awaiting the HPX - but would really like to know the main differences between the two, especially if there is a substantial price difference.

Any speculation on the front end chip resolution and/or light sensitivity on either? I thought the HPX was looking to be F10@2000 & the front end was 1370x744, pixel shifting for 1080i.

It also looks like it's confirmed that the HPX isn't doing any native frame-rates, and the 500 is in 720p (which is a bit disappointing, price considered).

I guess the new codec option is an HPX selling point as well, although I'd want to know that it was going to jive with Edius.

For something rumored to come out in Jan, I'd really like to catch some confirmed specs written in english.

That considered, I forecast a wait until April at NAB for choice on the new cam (as well as another marathon of craps, blackjack & cognac).

See this thread in the Digital Video Industry News forum (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=80730) to check out the new Panasonic AJ-HPX2000 P2 HD Camcorder

Can you use this cam with your left eye/shoulder?

There's more info on the HPX500 now; goto this site: https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/index.html

Click on P2 News and you'll see a flash page about the camera development and a downloadable english-version of the Japanese PDF that circled the web last fall.

Still no pics of the business side (left) of the camera but at least we know for sure it's got all the goodies of the HVX and a lot more - exactly what you'd expect from and ENG-type body.

No more word on price either, but since it's being marketed as a cost-effective step-up from the HVX I can't imagine they'll be pricing it more than the HPC2000 - lets hope.

Supposed to be much less than the HPC2000. HPC2000 is around $26,000 or so, the HPX500 should be more like $15,000-$17,000.

Just curious and not into format bashing, but has anyone done a dollar comparison for a "typical" set up for XDCAM and P2 workflos? This would be for indie film as well as delivery for broadcast.

And Good God Yes, a standardized workflo and format.

Mark,

Yes, in fact with my largest customer (can't reveal corporation name, but they "fly" a lot) we did cost analysis, standardized workflow comparisons, equipment cost (both initial buy-in and long-term) and compatibility tests with current NLE's; the P2 system came out ahead in almost all categories and by a large margin. At the time they had already purchased the F350 and supporting XDCAM deck so we had facetime with the entire system.

After our 3 month evaluation they have since migrated over to the DVCPRO codec and will most likely be purchasing the HPC2000 when it's released.

Robert, Thanks!

I'm looking at taking the plunge and was seriously considering the 350, it's a pretty nifty rig. A client had one, so I did play with it a bit, but it belonged to Sony, so I didn't have much time with it before it was sent back.

What are folks doing for long term P2 storage? I'm a bit paranoid about only having things on a hard drive and re-writable DVD's supposedly go bad after 5 years. Supposedly the next iteration of the Varicam will use D5 tape. It would be nice if there were one HD tape format.

Mark,

I can honestly tell you that if the F350 had been shooting DVCPRO-HD, HDCAM or been P2 based I'd have jumped on it myself. It's a great camera, albeit limited to the 1/2" inch lens mount. It is a shooters camera, no doubt. But, as a whole the XDCAM system just didn't add up for myself nor my client - and my relationship with my client goes back years and will extend for the forseeable future, so it was tantamount that I could back up my recommendations now and for the future.

HDD's are the preferred storage method for just about any media these days. It's still an ongoing debate - the viability of drives or DVD or even Blu-Ray longterm, but statistically and as proven by MTB failure rates of the last 10 years, HDD's are reliable, cost effective and highly versatile. Just like cameras and systems, there is no one all-perfect storage solution (diversity helps in all schemes) but HDD's have the least potentail problems of them all.

Thanks Robert, much appreciated. I see many Terrabytes of storage in my future.