Chris Hurd has green-lighted the first ever "Under Water, Over Land" video shoot-out. This is in no way intended to replace or compete with Dylan Couper's fun-fest, the DV Challenge. In fact, I still plan to sign myself up on a semi-regular basis to submit to Dylan's fiendish torture.

Instead, the "Under Water, Over Land" forum is a brand-new opportunity for you documentarians, planet Earth-lovers, tree-huggers, extreme sports enthusiasts, bird-watchers, sea-dwellers, and guys and girls who like to walk around with cameras shooting stuff in their neighborhoods, to participate in a different kind of challenge.

Each month, or thereabouts, we'll give an "Under Water, Over Land" topic (examples would include, f'rinstance, mammals, macro, landscape, water, recreation, birds, peaks and valleys, etc.) and you'll be expected to produce a 2-3 minute video on the topic. The point, of course, is to GET OUT THERE and to boldly take your camera where no camera has gone before.

We are at work attempting to offer some modest prize packages for the winning entry.

This is a new effort to bring something a little different to DVinfo, and this thread is intended to:

1) ascertain interest--does this sound like something you "Under Water, Over Land"-ians (and others) might want to take on?
2) listen to suggestions for how to run the show, it's wide open for now
3) find out if there is anyone out there who would like to help with judging...i think the DVC method of having participants judge is nice, but we need to be sure that we have participants before we can institute anything similar....
4) solicit suggestions for other "Under Water, Over Land"-styled topix...and also a groovy name...

This sounds like a great idea Meryen! You have my promise to enter in it as much as I can! I am really excited about this... I sure hope that this all works out! You know me, I'll be out there with my little Elura 100 filming as much as I can! There is so many possibilities for this. You have next to an unlimited supply of things to base it around..

As for the name, I am not the best but I will try to throw some ideas out there. How about, Exotic Nature Challenge? Thats kinda got a ring to it.... Or maybe, Lands of Creatures: The DVINFO Challenge? I don't know, I am horrible at names. haha!

~Gabriel~

Just as long as it does not entail a trip to Africa, I'm in.... unless that is the prize....

As for title, how about "The Visual Challenge" or the "UWOL Challenge."

I think this is a very good idea Meryem!

I like your suggestions of topic. Maybe once a month is a little bit to much, every second months will suit me better.

Thanks Maryem and Chris for this proposal.

Great idea, Meryem. I agree with Per Johan, that once a month may be a bit too frequent. Please consider developing some posting guidelines, and explaining them in detail so everyone can download and watch everyone else's entries. Nothing is as frustrating on DV InfoNet as not being able to see someone's video because of file size or incompatibilities.

Steve Siegel
Miami, FL US

I'm in, just no mountains tho', living in Florida would make that tough.

How about "Lord of the Things?

Jim

yes, i thought that you flatlanders might be vertically challenged by the "mountains" theme, that's why i tossed out "peaks and valleys" as an alternative....

good ideas, guys. i agree that once a month is maybe too taxing, and that dylan's model of leaving the masses begging to please please please torture us with another challenge is working out great!

this thread is to help us formulate ideas for how to make this work well and be fun, so keep 'em coming! definitely getting some posting guidelines is a very good idea....

Meryem,

Great idea, I always liked the dv challange but I do not fit into that genra.

How "The ooutdoor challange" "The Natural challange" "DV Nature"

Sense we all live in different environments perhaps guys like us who live in the flatlands could judge those partici-pating in "mountain sceenes, etc."

I would have no problem of judging any that I personally can't compete in.

As qualifications: I do teach photography, graphics arts, modules on vidography and Art (emphesizing sculpture mind you)

One topic I would like to see "The Living skies"

Dale

Hey Meryem,

I'm in... I like the idea of mixing the theme subjects up. To push us into places we maybe wouldn't go. (macro, timelapse etc.). I think the topics have to be general enough to allow all to compete; otherwise we may only get a few entrants. You could call one theme - SKY - and it could be night sky, timelapse clouds, sunsets/rises, moonshots. Or, WATER - could be underwater, waterfalls, rivers, rain, boats on water etc.

As far as delivery... there's always youtube. It doesn't get more more universally available than that.

I like the UWOL Challenge... sounds kinda like a southern 'y'all challenge'

Great idea, count me in.

Good idea. I need to practice editing as well as shooting. It really is a delight and inspiration to view Per Johan's musk-ox and Don's bird clips not only because they allow us observe nature that we never saw before but their clips are so cleverly edited that they are easy to view and enjoy ... I gasp every time I see Musk-ox relaxing and settling down to enjoy the pleasures and comfort of -20 centigrade + windchill of -15c. It's how Per Johan captures and illustrates this enjoyment as a social event or whatever that I'd like to be able to do. A competition would help me to learn, Meryem. Win-win-win.

Great idea Meryem, I will be in whenever I can.
Bob

Meryem
This does sound interesting. So time permitting I'm in. Living on the east side of the Rockies there is alot of subjects to video.

Gordon

When is the 1st one ?

oooo, timelapse! nice addition!

UWOL isn't bad either. i've always been fond of chris' naming of this forum because it's very inclusive and pretty effectively covers the planet....

i'm glad to see there's some interest and some contenders out there.

regarding the date--i'm going to let this thread run for about a week, maybe ten days, to be sure it gets exposure to interested parties.

this gives us (UWOL forum aficionados) about a week to kick around ideas and formulate with the collective brain. i'll gather it together and put up a sign-up thread for a formal head count of participants. i'll post more formal rules n regs at that point as well.

the DV Challenge usually runs for a week. for this one, i'm thinking more like a 3-week window, because that would give participants a chance to travel with their cameras over two weekends. i know that, for me, even to get my camera up a single big peak means allocating at least one weekend day just for that one panoramic shot from the summit. we need to make a little extra room for day travel.

or do you think that's too much time?

for something like this, it may even be advantageous to run it over the holiday break, when many of us get new gear and want an excuse to test-drive it....

we can certainly put it together before the holiday week, or we can kick it off for the new year.

thoughts? opinions?

if anyone wants to serve as judge and jury with me, shoot me an e-mail....

I think that either way will work fine with me... Possibly after the holiday might work better due to like what you said. More gear to learn how to use...

As for the time. I think that 3 weeks is good. Esp, if we only do one "about" every other month. It might be a little long, but I think it would do nicely.

~Gabriel

"for something like this, it may even be advantageous to run it over the holiday break, when many of us get new gear and want an excuse to test-drive it....

we can certainly put it together before the holiday week, or we can kick it off for the new year.

thoughts? opinions?

if anyone wants to serve as judge and jury with me, shoot me an e-mail...."


Judging: One guy to talk to about judging, is Steven Dempsey, a DVinfo.net member, at www.pinelakefilms.com His stuff is tremendous, and in my eyes, his work gives us something for the rest of us to shoot for. I don't know him, but if someone here does, maybe he could be persuaded...

Scheduling: As far as time, I'd like to see a monthly contest, with announcement lets say the first Monday of the month, with the film to be posted by fourth Monday of Monday of the month. That way, everyone could be planning to work on entries. That is one of the problems with the DVChallenge, we never know when it is going to happen.....

Meryen,

Jim beat me to my first thought, no peaks and valleys here Flatorida! :) Also, there may be other places that could suffer the same type of short commings for other subjects. So I would like to see the subjects as broad as possible.

I personally love to see a person or panel to judge and not the participants. I think it is more objective.

But, I'm in!

Mike

but mike, with three weeks that gives you a chance to drag your camera on that dream trip to indonesia. or peru. or cleveland.

or the humorous approach of taking your camera to the highest point in florida. wherever that is....

or underwater. there's some valleys to be explored.

you could shoot a macro view of unexplored "peaks and valleys" of plant life...

gotta be creative with some of these...

this is adventure video folks! and there's adventure in my own back yard when a camera is involved....

but then again, i must also expect a certain amount of whining and discontent on the part of participants! that is part of the fun as well! dylan is very good at laughing in the face of the malcontents!

soliciting one of our most talented members as a judge is a good idea. i'd prefer if someone enthusiastically jumped in, so i'll wait a bit before i start pleading with individuals....

it may be nice to be on a regular schedule, as chris suggests, but there is also something to be said for having the participants begging and pleading for the contest. i think therapy type people call that "variable schedule reinforcement." it's why we like to play slot machines...keeps the juices flowing....

or the humorous approach of taking your camera to the highest point in florida. wherever that is....




That would be the landfills! :)

Mike

Meryem,

Every environment has some majic moments throughout the year. A genral type topic like that would be all inclusive to everyone.

The UWOL Competition is (kind of reminds me of being awol) just dandy.

good point, dale. we could add also add a "magic hour" topic to our list of prompts--that would produce some beautiful, diverse stuff....

except now we'll have to hear the boos from our friends in the arctic circle who don't have a sunrise or sunset to shoot...it's always something, isn't it??....

one other thought i have regarding judging, based on chris' suggestion of asking steven dempsey to judge: we could also invite a guest judge for each competition. wouldn't it be cool to have our emmy award winning UWOL member jacques mesereau judge one, steven dempsey judge one. etc., etc. we could have a different guest celebrity for each challenge--spread it around a bit. there's so much talent on these boards surely we could enlist some to play a role in our modest contest....

keep those ideas rolling in....i'm getting a good list!

Hi Meryem

How about a 30 second Public Service Announcement about a local environmental issue? If they're good enough they might be broadcast by our local tv stations.

Grant

that's a most excellent suggestion, grant. we could also consider a "non-profit" prompt, where the shooter accosts their local charity/non-profit of choice (wildlife rescue, recycler, conservationist, etc.) and does a 2-minute web video that they can then donate to the charity. the shooter gets great footage and a portfolio piece/resume credit. the charity gets a freebie. the planet gets free pub. everyone wins. nice!

This is a great idea to promote people to try different things in there film making. You can't please everyone with something like this, and I agree very much in taking a topic and making the most of it 'whatever' your personal living circumstance.

Gets that creativity flowing!! .....so come on announce a subject and lets get shooting:)

I would definitely be interested. I shoot 99% underwater right now.

...then this would be a good chance to dry you off and try something new. welcome aboard, nick.

the one thing i do not want to do is run this contest while DVC7 is going on (especially because i want to sign up for DVC7, if it falls in the post-Christmas time slot...). people should be able to do both...i'll defer to dylan's scheduling...

one charitable cause that i contribute regularly to here in boulder runs an annual film festival that focuses on these types of films. i may look into getting a slot for our winners...so one other pay-off may potentially be a film festival credit. that would be a nice motivator....

so one other pay-off may potentially be a film festival credit. that would be a nice motivator....


So how would that work?

Mike

i have no idea, mike. i'm brainstorming, dammit!

actually, i was thinking it would be the type of thing where we would gather a year's worth of winners into a package of shorts and see if they would screen it at their festival...for interested winners, of course. you are your own copyright holder....

A 30 sec. PSA, I like this plan. It could also show the ugly such as environmental degragation. I also agree that we need to push it back till after the holidays. Any you cut it, COUNT ME IN. Bob

A 30 sec. PSA, I like this plan. It could also show the ugly such as environmental degragation. I also agree that we need to push it back till after the holidays. Any you cut it, COUNT ME IN. Bob


Do not like this idea at all! Let's keep it basic, filmmaking, no politics, environmental activism or anything of the kind.

Mike

Do not like this idea at all! Let's keep it basic, filmmaking, no politics, environmental activism or anything of the kind.

Mike

PSA's don't have to political. I suggested it as another market for our work.

How about we just stick to artistic filmmaking.

:)

Art without politics? Battleship Potemkin? :)

Seriously, some of us want to be wildlife film-makers and for some of us our art is mixed with charitable, moral, ethical, or political considerations. One vaguely political topic a year might keep a reasonable balance.

Environmental PSA's without political overtones could include:

* Avoiding alligators in certain places at night or at certain times of year :)

* Littering in nature reserves

* Feeding wild animals

* Avoiding forest fires

Art without politics? Battleship Potemkin? :)

Seriously, some of us want to be wildlife film-makers and for some of us our art is mixed with charitable, moral, ethical, or political considerations. One vaguely political topic a year might keep a reasonable balance.

Environmental PSA's without political overtones could include:

* Avoiding alligators in certain places at night or at certain times of year :)

* Littering in nature reserves

* Feeding wild animals

* Avoiding forest fires

I think Grant is talking about wildlife habitat. Many of us are increasingly interfering with wildlife habitat and messing up our wildlife. This is what I think the ethics of wildlife shooting should be addressing, at all levels, whether the problems are caused by scatty tourism or daredevil heroics or simply the blinkered attitude of mankind to our effects on the planet. I must welcome video clips that will heighten my awareness of how to protect wildlife habitat or help me to feel responsible for it in my own little way. The alternative is to see myself as just another paid-up member of the paparazzi invading privacy first and asking questions afterwards.

We've addressed the ethics of wildlife shooting in another thread. What I was thinking of could include films like Ken Diewert's "Echo Heights" documentary.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=80138

To convey a similar message in 30 seconds rather than 9 minutes could push our editing and story telling abilities (as well as our camera work)

The story I would like to do concerns people feeding Herring Gulls in tourist towns. It turns these beautiful, intelligent, birds into beggars and thieves. There are cases of them attacking people for chips or ice-creams. And it has led to calls for culls of these gulls.

This story fits into the PSA format and I'm sure there are other issues that also fit into this format. Some of them, like Ken's, concern local politics.

Some films convey a political or environmental message. We don't have to agree with a message, but we can appreciate the craft that conveys the message.

whoa, fellas. no thread-jacking! chris hurd's policy is to forego political debates and stick to production issues. i agree. those discussions never go anywhere in web world. everyone is entitled to their views, but those discussions have a tendency to devolve.

*hold hands, kumbay-ah (everyone sing!), release hands*

that's better. i think grant's idea is a good one. there is nothing inherently political about a PSA. they can take many forms and hold many viewpoints. and i think the challenge of shooting with an eye for broadcast and the lessons to be learned from trying to do so, probably for the first time for most participants, trumps the fears of touting political viewpoints.

we have to be careful about how we judge each others' politcal viewpoints, not about having them--that's a given.

we can talk about the PSA idea when it comes up for real--i think it is worth debating (and it's why i suggested the "non-profit" alternative, because it's more about providing a service and less weighted by the politics thingie...). for now, it's just one idea among many, many interesting approaches.

so, back to the topics at hand:

1) who's interested
2) how should we judge
3) help me with more brainstorming of topics
4) i forget, what was this one??

oh right....

4) we need a groovy name

"Kumbay-ah" ;-)

(3) Could the winner of the first contest decide the theme for the next contest?

ooo, grant, you're a wiley one!

no. that will be my one tyrannical, despotical, hegemonic-al, pleasure in generating this thing....

suggestions are always welcome, however....

Meryem, I think there's a fundamental question to be asked, something like, Who is the client (in this exercise)? Let's have a look ...
I have the impression, rightly or wrongly, that we, nature videographers, come in 4 categories (overlapping but not so much they don't recognise themselves)...

1. Outdoor activists who go where they want & shoot what they like to shoot.
2. Indoor activists who would rather do an artistic editing job using "material" from many sources including their own.
3. A rare breed who can do 1 & 2 above.
4. A less rare breed who can't do either but would like to learn from others and from experience (like me).

If No.4 is to benefit he will only do so if No's 1,2 & 3 get room to do their individual things and put them on display. That way your 4 sets of clients get to contribute and benefit from the experience of practising and sharing.

So, in seeking answers to your 4 questions I would broadly recommend that you give priority to flexibility for 2, 3, & 4 and No. 1 will turn up to be creative ...

"Under the Rainbow" might be a suitably vague title

it's an interesting question, but i think that our "client" base is, perhaps, not so narrow...anyone who signs up is welcome. we won't discriminate on the basis of politics, camera size, or hair color.

is trying to make something look beautiful considered activism? beauty, truth. truth, beauty. i'd rather be beautiful than right.

i think it was dale who said it best, that he was happy to see a video challenge that fit his genre. loosely speaking, the DV Challenge seems to attract more narrative videographers, this will be geared more towards the documentary set, i believe. but these categorizations are very loose. i made a doc-styled video for a DV Challenge. others have as well. i'm sure that we will generate narratives along the way.

maybe another way to consider it is, the DV Challenge tends to attract people who want to craft an idea (give it shape, that is...narrative form leaps to mind), this will be more geared towards following an idea, wherever the musk ox decides to lead...

anyway, this is waxing a bit too philosophical. i'm really about entertaining suggestions for running a contest that pleases the participants, rather than examining its base. everybody who plays, wins.

...then this would be a good chance to dry you off and try something new. welcome aboard, nick.

the one thing i do not want to do is run this contest while DVC7 is going on (especially because i want to sign up for DVC7, if it falls in the post-Christmas time slot...). people should be able to do both...i'll defer to dylan's scheduling...

one charitable cause that i contribute regularly to here in boulder runs an annual film festival that focuses on these types of films. i may look into getting a slot for our winners...so one other pay-off may potentially be a film festival credit. that would be a nice motivator....

heh, thanks. I am actually pretty embarrassed at my lack of knowledge/skill filming topside (I usually shoot just enough to frame my U/W stuff).

At least underwater I can claim the particles/lack of light/anything else caused me to mess up the shot :)

I am shooting the Sony FX1 and Sony PC-350 underwater right now.

So guys......do we have a plan for this now???

I think Meryem was giving it 10 days for rumination, and that seems like we should hear something definitive by about Tuesday next week....

chris is correct. i posted the first inquiry on november 27 and am hoping to hear from as many interested parties as possible in a week-10 days, to see if there's interest. so far, so good! people have been contributing some very good ideas, which i'll incorporate as we move it along.


not everyone is the DVinfo addict that i am, so we have to give the more infrequent readers a chance to chime in. so you can expect a more formulated set of guidelines to appear next week.

there are two other questions i'll throw out there....

1) we need a "wall of shame" of sorts...what sort of consquences for those who sign up but don't follow through. i love the "wall of shame"--it's brilliant. it's this hideously terrifying threat which means next to nothing--and yet, it's mere virtual existence was often enough to kick me into gear. maybe it's my warped out upbringing, but it was motivation enough for me to complete the challenges that i signed up for, and also to think twice about signing up for the ones which i knew i did not have time for....

so, any ideas on this one, which would be appropriately UWOL-ish?

the tar pit?

the burning sands?

the steaming cauldron of losers?

any ideas? i'm much happier assigning prizes than shame. but it does seem to juice the competition a bit.

2) i think the hosting issue merits a bit more attention. on one hand, one location, a universal setting appeals. on the other hand, i can hardly stand what uploads to google or youtube look like...i mean, here we are trying to make footage beautiful, using all our latest toys, and then to settle for that quality offends.

any more thoughts on this?

a pillory will be nice Meryem :-) Maybe loosers could be banned for a period to sign in for the contest?

About the video, size and quality should be defined before the contest. I think most people shoot in DV some in HD. Some shoot in aspect ratio 4:3 others 16:9. Fileformat, -wmv, -mov, -flash. It's important to make rules for this.

a pillory will be nice Meryem :-) Maybe loosers could be banned for a period to sign in for the contest?

About the video, size and quality should be defined before the contest. I think most people shoot in DV some in HD. Some shoot in aspect ratio 4:3 others 16:9. Fileformat, -wmv, -mov, -flash. It's important to make rules for this.

In the DVC challenge, everyone formatted and posted films in the format they wanted. If they used only one type file, they risk not having other look at an appreciate their films... Point is, its all a part of our "craft", and we learn to live with various issues in each project. I vote to leave it up to the individual if he wants to do it in Flash, QT, or Windows Media, or provide links to all three.

A limit on running time is definitely warranted for the sake of the judge or judges..

I agree that there shouldn't be rules to posting finished product. Personally, I would post mine on YouTube - that way I KNOW everyone could see it, but then I'd post better versions in AVI and/or MOV on my website for people to be able to see higher quality.

About people disagreeing with topics - having to do a film about mountains but living in the flats is half the challenge, i think. Some contests would be easier than others for different people. As long as the topics weren't too narrow, I think it would be fun to figure out how YOU or I could give a different treatment to the same topic.

On the part of monthly/bimonthly/etc... Personally I think I'd only be up for every other month. however, that just means if it is a monthly contest I would only enter it every other month ;-)

Timing for the first one - well, Dec has already started now, but i guess if it was 2-3 week contest then there's still time to get it going. I'm still hoping that DVC happens in Jan and not Dec.

lisa makes a very good point. even if we centralize it, there is nothing to stop contestants from posting alternative better-looking links. we could have both--a required link to youtube or google and then the option of posting all the other options you want. that way everyone can view everyone's work, and viewers also have the option of viewing higher rez or better-looking versions.

her point also got me thinking that i should sign up one UWOL account, release the password to participants during submissions week and then change the password on the day submissions are due (so that no one tampers with the account). that way we could have hosting multiple submissions all in one place. one-stop shop for maximum ease of use. it would certainly make it easy for viewers.

what do you all prefer, google video or youtube? i have not used either yet for hosting my own work. i have my own websites and also use ourmedia/archive.org for public docs. the trouble with ourmedia is the lack of ownership over the product which is placed permanently in the public domain. there's no way to delete it, so i don't recommend it. what about the other, more popular public sites? any feedback on which is preferable?