I am starting a project that will require me to capture over 60 hours of video. I had planned on reusing tapes I had used for a couple of previous projects. I read on this board that there may be some problems with the XL1 recording over previously recorded tapes which has made me kind of nervous. Buying 60 hours of new tapes is quite an investment but having my shots trashed due to an over recording bug is also distrubing. Does anyone know if this is real and if so in what circumstances.

Thanks

Here's something that I can attest to from experience. I use Panasonic tapes and had only recorded on them one time. It was just practice footage so I later used the same tapes again.

When I checked them later, there were spots of pixelation, bad audio, and then also some long patches where the old footage and new footage were interlaced in horizonal stripes.

Do yourself a favor...don't reuse tapes for critical shots!

I agree with the last post. I've had several similar experiences on my XL-1 with Panasonic, Sony and Fuji tapes. I'd stick with new tapes.

Vic

I would *never* consider burning old tape on a paying project. For personal use though, it's no big deal.

One thing that might help is to run a head-cleaning cassette for about five seconds before re-using an old tape. Also, don't change recording speeds. If you're re-using an old tape recorded in LP, then shoot in LP again. An old tape shot in SP needs to be shot over in SP again. My buddy Craig Berlin at Pro-Tape is probably going to think I'm nuts for suggesting this, but when I shoot DV, I'm the kind of guy who throws salt over his shoulder, doesn't walk under ladders, and knocks on wood. Hope this helps,

Cleaning the heads makes sense......

No LP over SP makes sense........

What about blackening the tapes with no audio? Has anyone tried this? I,d like to go to 4 channel 12 bit on tapes previously recorded at 2 channel 16 bit. Is this an oxidation issue? "When I checked them later, there were spots of pixelation, bad audio, and then also some long patches where the old footage and new footage were interlaced in horizonal stripes. " That's pretty bizarre!

This has amazing implications. What about the guy who records color bars or pre-blackens the tape for timecode issues? What about pre-roll/post-roll to prevent timecode breaks when removing tapes? I guess you have to make sure you pass the overwrite point.

This is a personal project by the way, but still......

Thanks to all who are sharing their expertise.

Howdy from Texas,

<< What about pre-roll/post-roll to prevent timecode breaks when removing tapes? >>

Avoid this problem easily, by using the Rec + / - buttons on the camera (or remote) to back the tape up a few frames and pick up the previous time code. This should become a regular habit for everyone shooting DV.

I'm starting to notice the interlaced horizontal band/stripe problem on my two month old XL1S. In reviewing all tapes recorded with this camera since new, I notice some glitches on just about every tape. Many have the above problem, others just patches of pixelation.

I have contacted Canon and they say it is probably just a dirty head, but there were problems on the very first tape put in the camera. I have run the head cleaner on it three or four times as they suggested, but withing the first 15 minutes recording on an unused tape, the interlaced horizontal stripe problem returned.

Needless to say, I'm not real happy with the camera at this point and will be sending it in for repair. If the ritual Chris describes is necessary to get good video from this camera, then Canon needs to include that in the User's Manual.

Ed, I know this will be a big hassle, but after reading your description I think you need to go ahead and send the camera into Irvine. Sounds like a misalignment in the heads.

I have and old XL1 as opposed to the XL1s but after reading the above I think I am going to run a test. I'm going to clean my heads and then blacken a previously used tape, play part of it back to see what I get, (i.e. pixelation? striping? sound?) and then record over it to see what happens. I'll keep you posted.....

Chris.....any suggestions on the optimal way to blacken and overwrite the sound?

Problem recording over previously used tape are not unique to Canon camcorders. Just ran into the same issue with a tape in a Sony DHR1000. Occasional audio drop outs and bands in the video. Not often, but enough to present a problem.

Has anyone had trouble after writing black to the tape between recordings? Does this prevent audio/video "blead through" or is this an oxidation problem?

When my XL-1 was brand new, I did a shoot where the first 30 minutes of the tape were blank (blue screen, no A/V)-- it was the second tape I ran. Everything appeared to be recording normally. It finally filled in, pixel by pixel. After that, the rest of the tape was OK.

On the tapes since then where I get the banding, I usually prestripe around 30 seconds or so at the start, then back up a little to start the shoot. That's when get the banding. Interestingly enough, the prestripe video is always OK.

Also, on a live theater performance, this usually happens on the first act, but seldom on the tape for the second.

It's been back to Canon once, during warranty, but will need to to back again (Probably at my expense!)

I've come to realize that it must be a Canon "feature".

Gotta get that Firestore!

Vic

I have learned my lesson ... what a TERRIBLE way to learn it, though. I thought I could re-use a tape "just once" if I re-striped (lens cover on, audio unplugged).

The footage was HORRID ... a few seconds of the previous tape and then pixels and stripes for another few seconds. I have to go back out today and re-shoot -- bringing all my gear back and taking another 2 hours or so of what would have been edit time just to get what I screwed up.

NEVER REUSE TAPES for anything that means anything to you!!

A related question ... how often should I clean the heads with a cleaner tape? I just sent it for yearly check-up in November.

I use panasonic DV tapes ... should I use a panasonic cleaner or the canon cleaner tape??

thanks!!

.... still screaming about those darn freaky pixels and stripes ... but SO GOOD to read that this is the cause ... I thought it might have been my camera!!!

deb

Has anyone tried reusing mini dv tapes after bulk erasing them? This has been done for years with audio tape with no problems. Why wouldn't it work with mini dv tape? With a bulk eraser, which erases the entire tape all at once, without the need to run it through a tape transport, you are sure to eliminate all data on the tape so as to avoid some of the odd effects people have experienced. Anyone had experience with this method? Do you think it is a practical solution?

We routinely reuse tapes in 5 different XL-1 cameras and have never experienced the problems everyone here has indicated. There honestly should be no difference in recording the first time versus recording the tenth time. We do usually restrict ourselves to a couple of reuses but have only noticed problems on one camera where the tape head was going out of alignment. This happened twice to that camera and was repaired twice under warranty. The second time, the entire tape head mechinism was replaced. So, I don't understand the major problems with reusing tapes at least a couple of times.

Edward

Edward....

Are your results independent of tape brand?

Thanks

I own both XL-1 for 4 years, GL-1 for 2 years, and now an XL1S. In wedding and event business doing about 30 jobs/year. I have about 50 Panasonic 60 min tapes, and 10 80-min tapes, which I constantly re-use, probably 5-10 times each. Never had a problem. They are designed to be re-used. You do not buy a new diskett every time for a new file, do you? I think that because it is so difficult to point a finger at the source of the digital glitches, people tend to blame the tape as the most obvious and easy to replace culprit. But I hear of other users re using tons of DV tapes without any problems, and I hear of users having the problems since day one using a brand new camera and fresh tapes. My gut feeling is there are some deviations from the nominal head/tape mechanism specs. Some cameras have it outside the best envelope, and as result are more likely to have the glitches, and less forgiving to little dust particle etc.
Alex

We have always stayed strictly with the Panasonic tapes. We started with the PQ series but changed to the Master series when it was introduced. I have not noticed any problems using either the Pro or Master series. These are also the only tapes we have ever used in our cameras.

Currently, we use both the 63 and 83 minute varieties of the Master series. I cannot tell any difference in the use of either length. If necessary, I will even put the final product in LP on an 83 minute tape to reach up to 2 hours. LP is ONLY used if the final product exceeds 83-84 minutes. And, yes, I will overwrite an SP tape with LP footage or an LP tape with SP footage. Since recording COMPLETELY overwrites a tape, it makes no difference. (I even have a few tapes with mixed LP and SP with one continuous timecode!)

I'm not convinced the problems discussed above are as closely related to the tapes as everyone seems to think.

Edward

So then...the question is...what would cause pixelation, bad audio, and interlacing of old and new footage on a tape on its second or third runs, but never on the first? And wait, there's more...I have an even hairier mind-bender...what would cause the frazzled picture to suddenly clear up at the precise moment you reach the end of the original footage and have made your way to virgin tape on the same cassette?

Hmmm...let me see.....this is a tough one...

Seriously though, I'm jealous of you guys that aren't having troubles with this. But some of us obviously are. Actually, I should say "were" instead of "are"...I haven't had it happen again now that I'm using fresh tape.

I think that Edward is pretty much on track. I (and a few others) apparently own "lemons". I'm sure it's camera related -- I've tried several tape brands, all with the same results.

If I didn't like the camera as much as I do I'd probably go for something else. It's a shame, though; I would have guessed that Canon would have a better handle on their QC.

Grumble......

I agree that it is likely a camera problem. I've had all the problems mentioned here on new tapes, including the interlaced video problem. It wasn't interlaced with previously recorded video, but current data just offset to one side in every other band.

My camera was returned to Canon for repair and I will let you all know what they find. They should have received it today.

here is something more to add and I'd really appreciate everyone's thoughts....

My camera was giving me that pixelations, banding and even leak thru of previous footage. I sent it for it's yearly cleaning (under warranty) and also let them know I was having those problems.

They said they'd clean it and test it. If there was a problem, they said they'd send it on to Canon for repairs. If not, I'd get it back.

I got it back ... all was working fine (with new tapes) ... then I used it to stripe a previously used tape .... recorded the entire tape with lens cap on/ mic unplugged. Did some filming and DARN the problem was there again!!

I used a head cleaning tape and then recorded on a new (but stripped) tape and didn't have the problem. ....

I am only use panasonic tapes ... I also a panasonic head cleaner.

QUESTIONS:

Do you think it's really my camera ( bought September 2000). If I sent it for servicing and they didn't see the problem, how would I know?? (I'm not a camera repair shop and they are).

Should I use a canon tape cleaner instead of Panasonic?

Has anyone read the article in last month's DV magazine re: using different tape brands?? It basically said it's NOT a good idea. So could different tape brands cause the bad results some are experiencing?? I used Sony tapes when I first got my camera -- mixed with panasonic at random because I didn't think there'd be a difference so I bought what was "on sale"

How often do people clean their heads?

Thanks!!

deb

I have no doubt that it's the camera. I've tried a variety of tapes, with the same result. It is good advice to ultimately stick with one brand, though. I also use the Panasonics -- they use a dry lube. Find one you like and stay with it.

It shouldn't be necessary to clean the heads excessively -- the cleaning tapes are abrasive. I don't think it matters what brand you use, although I use a Canon cleaner. Dirty heads will usually cause problems different than the banding problems that have been described a great length.

I believe that these problems are caused by head misalignment, etc. In my cases, it's always puzzling why it only occurs at the start of a tape (with the bad footage varying in length) and quite frequently does not occur on the 2nd tape used during the same production (after an intermission).

Some will disagree, but I think that prestriping the entire tape is a waste of time, and creates additional wear on the heads. The XL-1 puts new time code down each time. Recording a minute or so, then backing up into it to prevent a time code break is OK, but anything more is a waste of time. However, if it feels good, do it!

hmmm ...

Not sure if this is the place to continue posting on this, but NOW WHAT??

I have had the exact same problem that was described -- pixles, banding and even a few seconds of the previous tape bleeding thru -- it REALLY screwed up my most recent shoot.

After reading the first posts here and looking anywhere and everywhere else I could find, I thought it was because I re-used the tape. .....

But many who have been doing this for a while are saying here that it probably isn't.

BUT I JUST sent my camera in for cleaning and a "check up" in November!! I have a 4 year warranty with Mack Camera.

I have this not totally unreasonable fear that if I send it back to them it will disappear for weeks and weeks ... not something I can afford to do ... but if it's the heads misaligned, well ... that is even more of something I can't afford!

I have the bad tape .... with examples of the previous footage and then pixels and banding, etc on it .... Maybe I will send it, along with the camera.

Meanwhile, I am looking for more advise from the experienced... Have people sent their cameras to Mack under the warranty?? Mack says they send them directly to Canon if they need repair. Any thoughts on turn around time?? Any horror stories to add to my camera loss fear???

thanks,
deb

The one camera we had that exhibited this problem was fixed after they REPLACED the heads. The wording of their note basically indicated they were doing this "out of the goodness of their heart" but the fact remains that the camera WAS under warranty so we were not charged for this replacement. If you have heads repeatedly going out of alignment, this may be the only solution.

I once did a wedding and went into the brides house for 1 hour and everything showed it was taping fine. When I went back to my car I played some back and nothing was there even though my time code showed it was taping! I had a brand new tape as well. I put in my head cleaner and then it work fine after that. I had to go back and get more footage. My point is to always use the + or - review button to make sure and keep the heads clean especially if you use the camera as an editing deck like me. I never seem to have problems with reusing a tape unless the heads have a speck or dirt on them. But I won't reuse a tape for a wedding, ever. (just in case...tapes are tax right off anyway!)

I did have an earlier problem when I first bought my camera and when I sent it in, Canon replaced my head drum! They said that was causing my tape glitches! If you do a head cleaning and use a fresh tape and there is still problems then mabey the head has a problem.

My XL1S arrived from Canon Repair yesterday. One thing I can say is they are certainly fast. They (Irvine) received it Friday AM and I had it in hand the following Tuesday AM. And that was even after Canon put the wrong address on it and FedEx had to call to find out where it should be delivered!

Here is a quote from the repair document:

"Repaired unit. Replaced drum ass'y. Perf. cam., rec. and tapepath adj. Chkd. all fns. to fact. specs. (9449)"

The repair was covered under warranty and my only cost was shipping/insurance to Irvine. I have only been able to do a quick test so don't know if the problem has been resolved. Initial indications are good and will consider it fixed unless more thorough tests prove otherwise.

Yes, that was what they replaced on mine as I recall now!
(Replaced drum ass'y)

Ed,

when you (or otehrs) mention warranty, are you talking about the extended warranty from another vendor??

I bought my canon in September, 2000 -- I bought an addition 4 year warranty from Mack Camera --(cost another $400 I think).

I sent my camera to them with this problem and they cleaned it and said it was fine. But I had the same problem when I got it back -- only once, mind you, but it was a BIG PROBLEM!!!!

I have the bad tape ... maybe I should send that in with the camera???

Did you call Canon direct???

thanks,
deb

Hi Deb,

I did not purchase an extended warranty, this repair was covered under the factory warranty since the camera is only three months old. I called the 800 number on my XL1 Owner's Club membership card and they gave me the mailing address of the repair facility.

I did not send a tape but did send a couple of frame grabs as examples the problem I was having.

Good Luck

Our first problem was repaired just under the initial 12 month warranty period. Repairs are then warranted for an additional 3 months. Inside the 3 months the problem had again happened. So, the second repair was inside the additional 3 month warranty period. All repairs to date have been inside the standard factory warranty.

Can someone post some frames or a short 10 second clip of this phenomenon?

I have the nasty stuff .... where should I post it???

I can post some frames .... even on my organization's website if we can't find a place --- let me know ....

deb

Send 'em to me, I've got plenty of space on dvinfo.net -- that's what the site's here for.

chris@dvinfo.net

Does anyone from Canon monitor this board? If so it would be nice about now for someone to respond. With three pages of responses it's odviously a hot issue with a lot of folks. I, for one, chucked my plan to reuse tapes, bought new ones that I couldn't afford based upon what I originally heard from this board. Now it appears to be camera problems which is even scarier. I've gotta believe that Canon has seen this before. Chris, do you have any connections at Canon that might shed some light on this?

Chris, I sent you two examples of the banding problem that I've been experiencing. Thanks for offering to post some so others fortunate enough not to have this problem can see what we've been talking about.

i've noticed most of the experiences with image banding and/or dropouts/bleedthroughs described here could be associated with shooting in the field.
then there's the example of the fellow with 5 XL1s, i assume this is a studio of some sort, and hardly any problem except the one that definitely needed an alignment.
this could be a result of temperature differences causing the heads to be out of whack ever-so-slightly as to miss the timecode and/or address tracks on the tape as the heads go whizzing by @ 1500 R.P.M. or whatever.
now, i know that if i have a kick-ass camera case then most of the professionals in this group must have cases just as capable of holding an internal temperature at least 10 degrees cooler than outside climes for more than an hour.
so to test this hypothesis, can someone that experiences this problem regularly try to first acclimate their camera to the external temperature for at least an hour or two before turning it on and see if they still have similar experience.
the reasons for my assumptions are that i have to acclimate my 8inch schmidt telescope to the outside temperature for about an hour for every 5 degrees of temperature difference in order to have stabilized images and no dew forming on the lenses, and these videocameras are way more complex mechanisms that can be noticeably sensitive to very slight infringements upon their margins of operational functionality.
i would test this theory myself on my two month old XL1 if i could get the tape transport to load a phuking tape for the love of pete!
(it's getting shipped off to service tomorrow.)
i sure hope that when it comes back alegedly fixed that i don't have this experience since i didn't see it at all during the 3 reused tapes i shot back in early january while the camera still accepted tapes one out of ten tries.
anyway, love the forum, dig the abundant advice and can't wait to produce some quality footage. . . consistently.

bye
scott lawrence
austin, texas
budding movieologist

not sure about the temperature difference hypothesis ... I have the banding/bleedthru problem appear VERY BAD twice ... the first time was indoors ... my camera had also been indoors -- "regular" indoor temp (maybe 68-70??) .

the second time was outside and it was colder (just shot it about 10 days ago).

I also reviewed a tape I shot before that outdoor tape. I noticed a tiny TINY brief pixel problem. That tape was also taken inside/ regular temp.

I do note that these problems all occur at the beginning of the tape ... they go away after maybe 30 seconds max -- of course, that did NOT help me with the mini interviews I was doing with several people -- totally lost a few of them!!

I am getting a clip ready to send to Chris so he can post it ... thanks for that offer!! Hope it's ok to compress it down a bit -- I only have a 56 connection ... will send some still frames, too.

deb

I am the person who has been around the 5 XL-1's. Two of the cameras are at our church and never leave the building. So, you are correct about these two. However, the other three belong to our business and are used in a variety of locations, situations, and temperatures. These range from indoor/outdoor weddings to outdoor competitions to indoor ballgames, presentations, and musicals.

The three cameras have seen a range of temperatures from, roughly, freezing (outdoor colorguard routine in November) to 100 (outdoor wedding in August) degrees. The one camera that had to be returned multple times was one that traveled a lot. The other two traveling cameras have, so far, been fine without repair. The only problems we have seen that resemble the problem described here are when the heads were out of alignment and/or dirty. It is the camera's job to completely overwrite the tape - not the tape's job to erase itself.

Received examples from Deb and Edward. I'll get 'em posted as soon as possible. Currently I'm in between back-to-back trips; leaving on Monday for the New York DV Conference.

I think it's important to note that glitches of this type occur on any and all DV camcorders; not just the Canon XL1/XL1S.

Thanks to Deb and Edward for the examples.

I'm sure all cameras will occasionally "glitch". However, I've had them frequently happen for the first 30-45 seconds or so, up to an 8 minute episode recently. I never experienced any of these with my cheapo Sony D-8. Once, when the camera was quite new, I was blank (blue screen) for 30 minutes before it slowly filled-in, pixel by pixel. I'm pretty sure I have a lemon......

Glitches I can live with; I don't believe, however, that it's too much to expect, when spending the bucks these things cost, to have it record when you push the button.

BTW, Chris, what's the little black dot on some of the folders?

Cheers

Vic, the little black dot tells you that you've participated in that thread. I needed a way of knowing where I've shot my mouth off and where I haven't. ;-)

OK, I get it.....more dots = bigger mouth!

thanks

I've been reading this thread thinking that Canon is gonna get its A** sued off in a class-action suit.

I've been thinking of purchasing the XL1S, but might hold off a bit until I hear the end of this little triage! Don't really know what tapes everyone are using (although it doesn't seem it's been that wide of a variety), but this appears to be a Canon problem.

Save those ruined tapes. Is it as Chris has said: do all cameras exhibit the same kind of screw ups?

I'm sure Canon has some kind of clause in your purchase agreement that will attempt to prohibit a class-action suit, regardless if it is their problem. But faults in the assembly line have derailed more than one large behomoth! How about those Firestone tires?

Challenge them where the rubber meets the road, brothers!!

Well, the deal is, on this board most folks are Canon owners, so you're hearing about it mostly from an XL1 point of view.

The fact is that all DV camcorders of various makes and models tend to exhibit this very problem. It's the single worst aspect of DV, in my opinion. I've heard about it on Sony cameras, Panasonic, JVC, etc. etc. It's definitely a common problem but I don't think it's a Canon-specific issue.

I think after reading all of this that I will stay away from mail order and waltz right into a store selling the XL1, wave some cash in front of them and tell them to open it right then and there. I'll make a recording, rewind, make another, rewind and then make another and see how it plays. If it plays fine with no problems, the unit is sold. If it doesn't, I walk knowing I have just saved myself an assload of annoyance with a "lemon".

Most who have experienced this interlaced video/banding problem have indicated that it was when tapes had been reused. That has not been my experience.

In the two examples that I submitted to Chris, the interlaced video *is not* data that was previously recorded in that same area of the tape, but data that was from a previous scene, recorded only minutes prior to the "glitch". Tape was not rewound or reused in any way, indicating that the data was coming from a buffer or memory area of the camera and not from the tape.

Has anyone else noticed this particular problem?

Vic, I also used a Sony D8 camera for two years in some extreme environmental conditions (high wind, blowing sand and dirt with no protection for the camera). In roughly 200 hours of taping, I never saw this banding problem and only had problems with pixelation a handful of times. Most of those were traced to edge damage on the tape. I suppose since DV tape is so much smaller, head alignment and tape tracking are much more critical.

I'm hopeful, but not confident, that my particular problem has been resolved with the recent drum assembly replacement. It will get a thorough test tomorrow.

Interesting comments, Ed. I've also seen the same stuff from the buffer interlaced when it couldn't have possibly come from the rewound data. I had some discussions with Adam Wilt back when this first started, and he also felt it was a tracking problem. At the time, I couldn't find anyone else that had experienced it to the degree that I have -- over here, in 'XL-1 Land", lots more have crawled out of the woodwork. As soon as I can struggle through this month's shooting, it's back to Canon (again).

I'm hoping that by using the Firestore that I'm anxiously awaiting this all will become somewhat moot -- at least for stationary shoots.

Yeah, I wish I could get the recording reliability of the Sony D-8 along with all the goodies on the XL-1. It would be a perfect match!

Once more I'd like to ask.......

Chris, Does anyone from Canon monitor this board? If so can they respond?

During my first test after having the drum assembly replaced by Canon, I am happy to report that no interlaced video/banding problems were experienced during three hours of recording. I did have one very brief period of pixelation lasting about five or six frames, but otherwise everything looked good. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.