seems i can save money if i buy an amd athlon based pc for editing rather than an intel based one, as originally planned. could use that left over cash for more storage space.

can anyone familiar with amd processors comment on their experience.

i'm planning to run either xpress dv 3.5 or vegas 4. i know avid doesn't support systems using amd processors, but apparently there are many who run their xpress dv on amd machines with no problems.

i have posted a similar message on the avid forum, but would like to hear from you guys as well.

thanks.

Hey Adi, I've built and used both Intel and AMD machines for a variety of purposes. One difference was the heat that the AMD machines put out which meant you'd have to have better cooling whether in the heatsink, fan, or both. This can mean some noise. However, this has changed with the higher clocked Pentium IVs so this should no longer be an issue.

In regards to compatability I have had no problems with my dual AMD machine running Avid Xpress DV 3.5. Might want to follow the specs from turnkey dealers who also build AMD machines. The processor isn't as important for compatability as the chipset of the motherboard you are using. For example, I'm sure you've heard that VIA based chipsets have given some people problems but then again lots of people run VIA based motherboards based on discussions in the Avid forums.

In summary, go for AMD if you think it can save you some cash. Otherwise it shouldn't matter so long as the remainder of your hardware is in spec with the NLE you're using.

AMDs do put out more heat, but you do not need a high dollar fan. AMDs stock fan cools better than most aftermarkets will, and without the extra noise. I found this out too late, and ended up with a Thermal Take that sounds like a jet turbine. Next time :)

As far as AMD goes, I'll never use anything else. This is the 4th machine that has had AMD in it, and I'm still using 2 of the other 3 to this day. The 1st machine died of old age, and I gave away the still working cpu :) I have only had one problem with AMDs, and they took care of me.

After almost a year, the cpu started going. I knew this, because it would only boot if severely underclocked. The people I bought it from, said to be happy with an 1150. I called AMD (Several different people, but I found the one I needed to talk to), and he sent me a new cpu. No problems. It works great. Everyone has chips go bad from time to time, but not everyone will stand up and do right.

Ari,
I've been following your posts as you build your machine for a while now. Let me assure you that AMDs work just fine with Avid. My turnkey system, (built by DVLine) has dual AMD's and runs like a clock.

A lot of people are confused by the statement "AVID doesn't support such and such" or "Not AVID certified." Here's the drill. In the PC world there are practically an infinite number of hardware configurations possible. AVID does not "Certify" every possible configuration. It certifies a good number of probably the most common configurations at a given moment in software development. These are then listed as "Certified". IF you build a "non certified" system... they are not going to give you technical support running down a system they have not already certified... hence the "Not supported" system.

(I don't know that other NLE manufactures bother to test and "certify" systems at all... it's a bit of a marketing risk)

The AVID forum is a great place to ask for help with system configurations. New boards, chips, and cards come on the market every week, and someone eventually tries them out. They will likely let you know via the forum what the issues are.

If you are really hesitant about building your own system, and feel you need "support" in case something goes wrong... I strongly suggest you do as I did and buy from a reputable turnkey vendor. I know you are in Israel and shipping would be astronomical... but that's a trade-off only you can decide. Peace of mind vs saving money.

Good luck

Bill

thanks for the replies. you're right bill, i am being a little too hesitant about making my decision. you might be right about just getting a turnkey system. there are venders over here which i can by them from, it's just that it seems as though the more i research (it took some time to even decide i want a pc rather than a mac) - the more decisions i have to make.

on top of it, i don't know much about computers, so i'm also sort of learning as i go about choosing what to buy.

in the end i'll probably decide the way i usually decide such things - toss a coin.

thanks again.
adi.

I've been using AMD processors now for years. Never had an issue. Don't concern yourself about megahertz either. AMD's core being able to process information at lower clock speeds and still maintain the performance of a higher clocked Intel is a testament to AMD's engineers.

I hope to see the new AMD Hammer out this year, 64bit NLE power should be sweet :D

are there suggested motherboards that work better with amd processors?

I have tha Abit KG7 Raid. It's a good board, but you will have to bust your hump to get it stable. Expect frequent lockups until you get the right balance of drivers, bios, and change the slew rates and other soft menu settings. None of which are mentioned on Abit's site. I had to go to www.sudhaim.com , Paul's unofficial Abit site to find this.

Right now I believe the fastest AMD motherboards are based on NVIDIA's nForce2 chipset. Go with a motherboard vendor that you feel is reputable (for stability many like Asus for example) and with features that you want (on-board audio, etc and later Serial ATA support).

Be careful of Asus, bad history of non support with them. They are fine as long as the stuff works, but if there is a problem, you're out of luck. Been waiting 3 years to hear back about my P5a mb.

Wow keith sorry to here that, but in support to what you have said, the ASUS boards that do work when they work like a champ and keeps working. I still have a T2P4 which is the original Pentium board based on the Intel 430HX chipset. Thsi sucker is still running and running like a champ, albiet I won't do any NLE stuff on it because of clock speeds. :) I used to be an avid Intel fan, until the Athlons came out. Even after they first ones blew the PIII 1.0gHz out of the water I stuck with praising Intel. But after learning about what the PIV I had to try the Athlon. My Throughbred A and Palomino Core CPU's are running great even at OC speeds. My new Throughbred B core CPU is running OC with no problems, I believe that with the exception of Intel's hyperthreading technology no new technology has been created for the PIV since the PIII. It is essentially the same CPU with a larger die so that it will dissapate heat much better thus giving you the clockspeeds Intel has achieved. It is all marketing, Intel having lost the 1GHz barrier to AMD needed to come up with a way to win. Intel knowing most people buy MHz instead of real world performance decided to clock 'em up. AMD's CPU do not dissapate heat as well as the Pentium's because of the limitations of it's design. AMD knew they can not reach the high 2GHz with the technology that were currently available to them. They instead tried to level the palying field by using the plus factor. That's the 2X00+ rating you see with their new XP CPU's. AMD claims to be on par with a Pentium at certain clockspeeds. This is not exactly true. GHz is GHz and sometimes this is wha tis needed to get the job done quickly. But then again the performance differences can be miniscule but blown up by many reviews to indicate a difference. Surely no one will notice the difference between 120 fps in Quake Arena vs 160 fps. But it sounds good and makes egos large. For our purposes the clockspeeds do make a difference, but nothing to really write home about. I rendered an hour and a half worth of video with my AMD 2700+(2.16GHz) in Vegas to MPEG-2 DVD Compliant and it took 5 hours. The top of the line Intel, 3.06 would roughly take the same amount of time give or take 10 minutes. For 3X the cost. If you want to kill some real time, I would suggest looking into a AMD MP processor and use dual or quad processing to assist you. The MP do not clock as high but will give you the ability to use two in tandem. I think you will definitely see a difference using these. Since you will have to buy two CPU's in order to see a difference I definitely will steer you away from the Intel offerings since you will pay a whole lot more and get roughly the same performance, Save your money and buy a crapload of RAM and or a nice shotgun mic or whatever else.

Garret- my point is, a Company is only as good as it's support. If the support isn't there, how much money is wasted trying to fix the problem? A new mobo is about $100 and up. You waste 3 or 4 weeks emailing these guys, meanwhile, you still can't work. Then you try calling them. Still no results. Then, you just go out and buy a new board.
It doesn't matter how good 99 out of 100 products work. The important thing is how well they take care of the one that doesn't. You know... the one that you bought?

what is XP and MP in athlon processors? what are the differences?

XP is for single processor boards, MP is for multiple processor boards. You can't use two XPs, you would need to use the MP chips. The difference? Don't know for sure... not that big a geek :)

so if i plan on having only one processor, is an XP what i need? or does a single MP processor have advantages over a single XP?

thanks.

I may be wrong, but if you will eventually have two processors, you can operate with just the one MP on a dual cpu board. You cannot operate a single or even two XP on a dual cpu board, or a MP on a single cpu board.

I'm not sure if there would be any advantage to running a single MP, though I'm sure there isn't any. Except the fact that you can add another one in a few months.

You can run dual XPs but I don't recommend it, especially not for your everyday, and hopefully, very stable editing computer. Doing this will also void your warranty with the motherboard manufacturer and AMD's since it requires modifications to the bridges of the CPU.

MPs are more expensive as well since they are marketed for higher end workstation, and low end server applications. Not to mention that AMD "certifies" these processors for SMP use as well.

I'd just go for the fastest XP processor available, Adi, if you're still intent on the AMD route.

Actually, unless you want to learn about computers in general, I'd just get a turnkey if I were you.

MP processors are exactly what Chris has said, the XP processors are really "intended" to be used in single applications. The mods to the bridges he is talking about is not recommend unless you are very confident about your technical abilities and have steady hands. These act like switches and depending which you short the processor will unlock some properties that AMD has locked. The bridges are about the thickness of a single strand of hair and maybe 1/16" long and you need to short them using a pencil or conductive tape. On some AMD cpus, you would have to fill in a dip between the bridges with nail polish or similar chemical and then short them with a pencil.

I respect Chris's opinion regarding the fastest AMD XP CPU, but do not share it. Videomaker has stated and from my own experience especially with Windows XP the dual processors will make a mountain of difference when it comes to performance especially to CPU intensive applications like editing and rendering( which is also dependent on a few other things like your PC subsystem (Hard drive speed, RAM, etc.) MP processors are not as fast per se compared to their hot rod cousins, but they work harder, together with a twin. The MP route is definitely more money, but it may not be much more than going with Intel.

Hey Garret! Fellow overclocker and computer hardware enthusiast. I agree actually, I like going dual and try to get as much power for my dollar. Every machine I've built for myself has been a dual (unless we're talking about a firewall, but even then...).

I was recommending an XP only because Adi seemed intent on that route but by all means, it can be fun and a great learning experience to build your own machine, even if it is a dual for the first time (which I did but spent lots of time researching the topic).

For DV however I do notice you have to be more careful about decisions since this isn't all about hot rod fun (well, not all of it anyway). Its good that Adi is weighing his options carefully - just not too long since there's so much to learn elsewhere!

Chris, wow that's two hobbies we share ;P but before we start holding hands and picking out curtains (j/k, I got that from Full Metal Jacket or some drill sargent, anyway I finally got to use it.) The Dual Route is the way to go as we are both in agreement, but it doesn't necessarily mean he has to hot rod the system, actually quite the reverse since he can order a turnkey or even a , God forbid a HP or Dell that has a dual AMD CPU solution. We should talk sometime seriously though since I have a problem with my 3DMark03 score no matter what I do. I also got a problem getting to a 200MHz Memory bus peed to be double data rated at 400MHz with Corsair RAM CAS 3. But that's under subject for another forum...:)

ok. i think i understand the xp/mp issue. so let's say i go with an athlon xp2200, i'm still a little confused as to what motherboard will work nicely and best fit my needs. i realize that i should select a known and respected brand name such as: asus, msi, gigabyte, etc. and that i should stay away from VIA chipsets. chris go suggested NVidia chipsets. any specific suggestions?

the computer will be used for editing purposes and some sound recording. for personal use, no clients and so on. i imagine will be surfing the web now and again. not into gaming at all.
running software: vegas 4, after effects, sound mixing software (not sure which yet). might want to run xpress dv in the future.

not looking for the fastest system available, but not one that won't leave me far behind. most important that it is stable and powerful enough to for "realtime" features and so on.

mb's i've come across so far, but don't know much about:
ASUS A7N8XDEL NVIDIA NFORCE
EPOX 8RDA
MSI K7N2G-ILSR
MSI K7N420 PRO NFORCE
ABIT NF7 NFORCE 2

not much need for onboard features as i will have a seperate sound card, graphics card and firewire.

any ideas, suggestion, comments? all are welcom. sorry about being so hesitant before buying. i just cant afford missing something and being stuck with hardware to be used as door stops.

thanks

Avoid Asus- if anything goes wrong, you'll never get support. If you want to go with Abit, first check out these two sites-
http://www.sudhian.com/
http://forum.abit-usa.com/

Read up on the boards you might be looking at! I have the KG7 Raid, and think it is a very stable board. However, when I bought it, I wasn't aware that I would have to make changes to the soft menu to make it stable. I went through almost a year of lock ups until I found the answer.

If possible, while shopping for componants, go to the manufacturer's support forum, and see what problems others have been facing. On a side note, I have heard good things about Soyo and Thunderbird. You might look into them as well.

That's a very good suggestion, getting familiar with the computer hardware forums, if only to post questions when you run into trouble. Many motherboards also have dedicated websites especially if they are unique in some regard like the Abit based one over at Sudhian.

For specific models I can't think of any off the top of my head. I would start by doing research over at www.anandtech.com for reviews on boards with that sweet ratio between performance and price. There are other sites of course - perhaps some less advertiser inclined - but I think we're getting too involved if we get deeper than that. Here's a motherboard roundup of motherboards based on the nForce2 chipset:

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.html?i=1759

Shop at a reputable vendor as well. I like www.mwave.com. The retailer can often do the returns for you so you won't have to deal with the manufacturer directly. I know many people who've complained long after the return period and still gotten returns from good vendors. Check out www.resellerratings.com if in doubt.

Hey Garret, totally agree with you. I haven't been able to have that kind of "fun" problem of late - my Tyan Tiger MP is against any deviation whatsoever, as vanilla in options as you can get (like no manipulating bus, etc). I'm salivating over dual Opterons...

If AMD would be your choice I would also suggest you check out HTTP://amdmb.com. Look at each of the forums corresponding to each mobo. Check out others who are literally pulling out their hair and decide which one had the least bald users. I've never had a problem with ASUS, but then again I'm one user and there are others who have. I also never had problems with their tech support, but then again I never real used them too often. I only used it twice in my career as a systems engineer and the Asus guy was quite helpful, albeit he couldn't correct the problems but was able to direct me to find the solution myself. But then again, that's me. Without giving you the resume, I am pretty familiar in the realms of "box" building...

But I've used and read reviews about most of the mobo manufacturers that you listed. I can tell you one thing that the consensus among most people I've spoken to that are also adept box builders that the A7N8X Deluxe is arguably the best mobo for the AMD CPU's. I had a friend here in the office that opted for Abit and is now dealing with them regarding a cross shipment to RMA his board because the mic circuits on the onboard is hissing. They told him he would have to pay a $100 deposit to do a cross ship or otherwise he would have to send his board to them, God knows how long it would take until they send it back, for the meantime he's out of a mobo. Performance wise the A7n8X is also one of the best performers.

Do yourself a favor and stay the heck away from VIA, as far as possible if you like to keep your wits. Nothing but problems with most of their chipsets that I've tried.

I suggest you break the auxillary piggybank and pick up a XP2400+(1.93 GHz) for ~$20 more than the XP2200(1.8)+ and you will get slightly better performance out of it. Actually if you spend some of that hard earned dough on a excellent pair of 400MHz DDR RAM (Crucial or Corsair, {Samsung Chips}) and is willing to do some overclocking, get a Volcano 7+ Heatsink\FAN you can get the XP2100+(1.75Thoroughbred B core) to overclock to 2.4GHz true speed using 180Mhz(FSB*13.5@1.7volts) which will equate to roughly between an XP2800+-XP2900+ for less than that of the XP2200+.

Chris, Opterons, hmmm, grrr...(Homer Simpson) seriously is that the Hammer's prodcution name? It's a bit late, seeing as AMD had announced its debut back the end of 2002. A well, "Mr. Bush, It's all about the ECONOMY, stupid!"

thanks for all the replies. i'll look up some of the stuff listed here, do some more research and let you know what i finally decided on. thanks.
adi.

Adi- just something else to mull over:
If you go with a turn-key system, you will have:
1) A warranty and support, which will help you from pulling out all of your hair.
2) A system that has been configured to work. Someone else has already pulled out thir hair, to insure it works for you.
3) A larger price tag than if you built it your self.
4 )A software bundle, which may actually have something useful.

If you build it your self:
1) You will get to pull your hair out figuring out the little details.
2) No support, and no warranty, except MAYBE the seller/factory. A big maybe.
3) A smaller price tag.
4) Satisfaction in knowing the machine, because YOU built it.
5) Probably no software, except what you buy for it.

Both of my machines were built using parts I selected. I know them fairly well, which comes in real handy because I have no support. I dropped almost $4,500 on this machine, but got exactly what I wanted.

My 2 cents:

I built an Athlon XP PC based on the MSI K7N420 board about a year ago and have been quite happy with it. Fairly stable under Win 2000.

It took a significant investment of time to research, buy components, and construct/configure the machine before the "happiness" set in, however, and with little or no cost savings.

If I had it to do over again, I would buy a turnkey solution.

(Well, I just bought a Mac, but that's for another post).

The nice thing about building your own, though is you can use the sweet Western Digital Special Edition drives with the 8 MB cache -- highly recommended, if that's an option. And don't skimp on RAM. I use a Gig.

Macauley- I guess the real savings in a build-it-yourself PC, can be eaten up by shipping. Buying from a local wholesaler should shave at least a couple hundred. Should. Large scale manufacturers can buy componants by the truckload for far less than we can one-at-a-time. This way, their total cost in a PC is a tenth of what they sell it for.

The biggest drawback to buying off the shelf, is getting what THEY want to put in it.