Just got an A1.
We are starting a new documentary in the middle east in feb. I am just now considering shooting in 24f. we have been shooting in HDV 60i for years, then de-interlacing/converting to 24p in Magic Bullet. We have been doing this very successfully.
I haven't researched how the 24/30 f function work in the A1. From the little I've read it is not like the Cineframe mode in our FX-1's. (which look horrible).

-We are actually getting progressive output?
-Where does the 10% rez loss number come from? Is that accurate?
-How can I ingest 24f footage into FCP?
-How will it differ/be better than working with Magic Bullet?

thanks!!
Steven Galvano
ColorsStudios.com

There's been quite a bit of discussion about this. The F is the same as P. The end result is a true progressive 24 fps, no interlace. It's not at all like the Cineframe in the Z1. It's the main reason I got the A1 over the Z1.

FCP works great with the 24f footage. You must have the $49 crossgrade, and that allows you to get the free 5.1.2 download. If you have 5.1.2, you're in business.

I've been involved with Magic Bullet (even though I don't use it myself, a friend does, and I've edited much of his footage), and when you do the deinterlace thing in post, there is a bit of funkiness in the motion. When you're shooting 24 frames per second in HDV, you have a real 24 frames per second, no pulldown blur frames. You mark an in and out point one second apart, count the frames, and there are 24. Looks just like 24fps film motion

I haven't researched how the 24/30 f function work in the A1.Perhaps you should -- this forum is loaded with information about Frame mode, and a simple search would reveal just how frequently your questions have been asked, and how thoroughly they've already been answered. Please explore the numerous existing conversations about Frame mode for in-depth replies, but for now, here's a brief re-cap:

-We are actually getting progressive output? Yes.

-Where does the 10% rez loss number come from? Is that accurate? Yes, it's accurate. The 10% loss of vertical resolution is the price paid by the DSP for the in-camera conversion from interlace to progressive.

-How can I ingest 24f footage into FCP? In 5.1.2, simply use the 1080 HDV 24p capture settings. As far as Final Cut is concerned, 24F is 24P. Frame mode is completely transparent to the latest version of Final Cut Pro (and some other NLE applications). It captures as 24P progressive scan video because that's what it is... 24P progressive scan video.

-How will it differ/be better than working with Magic Bullet? It's a heck of lot faster and cleaner than converting in post.

Hope this helps,

thanks!!
Steven Galvano
ColorsStudios.com[/QUOTE]

....that's why i love this site. Thanks for the insight.
I will continue to explore the posts info.

Can i use my existing HDV decks to ingest 24f footage...or do I have to use the camera?

None of the current JVC or Sony HDV decks can read Frame mode. You'll either have to use the camera as a deck, or buy the Canon version of a "deck" which is their consumer HDV camcorder, the HV 10, and use it for playback. It handles Frame mode playback (but not Frame mode recording).

Again, a frequently asked question. Please, please, please search before posting. Chances are that whatever your question is, we've already answered it numerous times before in the past.

The types of posts that we're looking for are, what are you doing with the camera, share some clips of what you're shooting, your tips and suggestions, etc. Thanks in advance,

Why in the bleepity bleep doesn't Canon make decks? They never have & seemingly never will. I've always wondered this. I mean, at the very least, take the A1/G1's tape transport & all the goodies inside, & throw it in a box! :)

Seriously... are they afraid of competing with the "big boys"? I doubt the big boys will come out with a deck that plays Canons 24f... or at least anytime soon.

It cracks me up thinking the HV-10 is the only solution they came up with & laugh every time I reach for mine to capture. If a client was ever to come here during the capture process, I'd just hide it under my bay or somesuch :) Oh well.....

Bill

That very issue will keep us from going with a couple of XL H1s next year. After getting the XH A1 for personal doc use, I've decided its quality is perfectly good enough to replace our bigger cameras at work when we buy new stuff, probably mid-next year. I had been looking at HDCAM HD, but the Canons are really good enough. I could buy two H1s, two decks (if they existed) and have enough money left over for three of the most-used HMI lights I normall rent--for less money than one XDCAM HD with two decks. Of course, we could shoot 60i and use Sony decks, but one thing we'll do when we make a move to new gear is start shooting 24p. There are some advantages to us for doing that beyond the look.

I've been loading my footage from the A1 using the camera, and it is maddeningly slow and cumbersome. I can live with it for the fun personal stuff, but it'd never fly in client production work.

It's actually not a bad solution.
I've have always purchased high end sony decks.
For my FX1, a friend recently suggested a $899 Sony HC3 camcorder instead the the $4000 deck solution. All I use the camera for in ingestation. Three months later, I'm very happy with the performance....no glitches at all.....and with the 3k in savings, I bought the Canon A1.

One more question for Chris: been reading about the 10-12% rez loss for shooting 24f. I havent found the rez loss numbers for 30f. Is it the same?
It would stand to reason at 30f with be simpler for the DSP.

thanks
Steven

Chris -

Could we include professional deck next to our list regarding Canon A1/G1 firmware upgrade petition? Hard to say why Canon linger. Maybe introduction of deck would not be optimal decision for them? Maybe they are thinking about solid state memory recording for the next generation of their pro video equipment?

Personally, I'm very happy with Canon's F mode encoding. It's not compatible with 60i/50i stream but I like it because it's fully progressive, more effective and elegant solution, that will also be fully compatible with their future true progressive camcorders.

Thanks.

I've been loading my footage from the A1 using the camera, and it is maddeningly slow and cumbersome. I can live with it for the fun personal stuff, but it'd never fly in client production work.

In what way is it slower than a deck?

Insert tape. Rewind to start. Open HDV capture window and hit the capture buttons. 63 minutes later you have your tape nicely broken up into clips (well, with FCP you do, not sure about other software)...

..and in the meantime you can go and have a cup of tea / surf the web / play the playstation / watch tv / get some other work done / etc.

For me this method is far faster than setting in and out points and capturing the old way (even with a deck). Trimming clips and disregarding bad takes is so much faster that it more than makes up for the additional time of having to capture the whole tape.

Personally I cannot understand why people are so attached to having a deck. I'd never invite a client to the capturing anyway (unless I want to make more money out of them - hee! hee!).

And I'm happy that Canon's "deck" is cheaper and includes a free camera!

Although the FS4 is next on my shopping list, anyway!

Personally I cannot understand why people are so attached to having a deck.

Decks are so convenient to work with and look cool on desk :)


And I'm happy that Canon's "deck" is cheaper and includes a free camera!


I agree. Never owned pro deck and my productions never suffered because of that, but... decks are cool :) If Canon released one for the price similar to HV10, I'd be very tempted.

Decks are so convenient to work with and look cool on desk :)

And the truth shall set you free! :-D

When I worked for a TV news studio (about 10 years ago now) we were mostly on Beta SP. We did have a couple of stringers supplying us with footage from XL1s. And the deck we used for editing DV footage? It was a JVC camcorder!

It's actually not a bad solution.
One more question for Chris: been reading about the 10-12% rez loss for shooting 24f. I havent found the rez loss numbers for 30f. Is it the same?
It would stand to reason at 30f with be simpler for the DSP.


http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=599180&postcount=39

In what way is it slower than a deck?


Well the tape mechanisms on pro decks are typically much faster than the ones on cameras so shuttling back and forth is faster on a deck. But you're right, once you actually start capturing it's all real-time anyway so that narrows the gap.

I know this solution isn't right for everyone but the firestore has been a fantastic solution for me regarding the deck issue. It's still cheaper than a pro deck (though not cheap). I still run tape as a backup, but haven't actually needed to use it. Capture times are way faster than any deck.

I don't know if it looks more or less impressive than a deck in the eyes of a client but I suppose you could refer to it as a Digital Film Mag instead of as a Hard Drive to get them to Ooohh and Aaahh.

And the truth shall set you free! :-D

When I worked for a TV news studio (about 10 years ago now) we were mostly on Beta SP. We did have a couple of stringers supplying us with footage from XL1s. And the deck we used for editing DV footage? It was a JVC camcorder!

Working with camcorders, people tend to care about drum hours, but almost nobody cares about DH in decks... Ain't that funny? :) We just like decks because we take their performance for granted. Decks never break, we beat them around, we don't even care to insert tapes gently, but we treat cams so nicely. That's not fair :)

Could we include professional deck next to our list regarding Canon A1/G1 firmware upgrade petition?I'm not speaking for Canon and I have no insight into what they do or why (and I'm thankful for that, actually... I've been close enough to the corporate realm to realize that I'm not at all well suited for it). But I'll take a stab at the reason why you'll most likely *never* see a professional VTR-style deck from Canon, and the reasoning, if this really is the reason why, makes perfect sense to me. And I can sum it up in one word.

Tapeless.

Why bother with a deck at all, why would you even need one, if you can completely bypass the tedious video capture process altogether? Tapeless recording during acquisition saves time, and time is money. Plus, any of the available tapeless recording solutions (FireStore, nNovia, whatever) are considerably less expensive than a Canon VTR would ever be. Don't bother with what you wish a Canon VTR would cost... whatever you want that price point to be, trust me it isn't high enough. From my point of view, Canon traditionally overprices and underproduces. If they actually made a VTR, I guarantee it would be expensive and hard to find.

Meanwhile, any of the currently available tapeless recording solutions are considerably less costly than a Canon-branded VTR would be, and these hard drive recorders hold several hours of video in the edit-ready format of your choice. Roll a Mini DV cassette in the camera at the same time for a confidence back-up and instant archiving. On those rare occasions where you actually have to go back and reference the back-up tape, it ain't gonna kill you or the camcorder to use it as a VTR for a few minutes.

Like it or not, it's all going tapeless anyway... I'm willing to bet that HDV is the last tape-based format we'll ever see in this price range. The next step is some derivative of the AVC codec, recording either to disc, drive or card. Indeed, AVCHD is already here in the consumer world.

So my *guess* is that Canon is looking at the variety of tapeless recording solutions that are available today, and considering their lower cost relative to a dedicated VTR, plus the dual advantages of copious recording times plus the complete elimination of the video capture process, combined with the instant back-up and archiving provided by simultaneous recording to Mini DV cassette, and they're probably thinking, why would you need us to make a VTR, and why aren't you tapeless yet?

That's my take on it anyway. I've lost count of how many times I've been proven wrong though!

Chris -

Thank you for your, as always, incredibly balanced reply. You are absolutely right, the future belongs to tapeless recording. Who can disagree?

I still believe a HDV deck priced below HV10, let's say around $1k, would be very appealing to small production studios and businesses for which tapeless acquisition won't replace legacy technology for a few years.

Technically, it's really not difficult for a company like Canon, known for making such a wide variety of products, to include a little bit sturdier version of HV10 cam in their offer, just without the lens of course. Overall image of their product line would shift further into PRO side (not to say they aren't there already). That could benefit them long term since traditionally we recognize Sony, Panasonic and JVC as pro video manufacturers. Canon is widely associated with pro D/SLR cameras, but not with pro video equipment. It's more about company image than profits from sales of one particular product, imho.

Just imagine a professional deck on their website next to H1, G1 and A1 cams. Who would dare to say it's "prosumer" line then? :)

ps. I know we should not use that non-word "prosumer". I just did it on purpose of making my point.

Insert tape. Rewind to start. Open HDV capture window and hit the capture buttons. 63 minutes later you have your tape nicely broken up into clips (well, with FCP you do, not sure about other software)...

Does FCP automatically break the footage into seperate clips (like IMovie) ??
Which function does that?

Tapeless?
I disagree - at least in part.

I have nearly 600 hours of footage in my archive - most of it is digitally logged/cataloged.

Although most of this footage has already been cut in its respective documentary, all this raw footage is priceless to me.

Although I would to go tapeless for initial acquistion and NLE import, we still need logical archiving scheme.

Tapeless would also have to get much more practical/reliable. In Kenya, I shot 80 hours in 2 weeks. In Zambia, 40 hours, in Zimbabwe, 40 hours, in Sicily 50 hours......

One more question for Chris: been reading about the 10-12% rez loss for shooting 24f. I havent found the rez loss numbers for 30f. Is it the same?
It would stand to reason at 30f with be simpler for the DSP.

thanks
Steven

Looks like your question got buried in this discussion despite the link provided by Juan. I will allow myself to answer it.

Yes, 30f displays the same side effect as 24f, but it's more about the numbers than images. Canon still shines with the most detailed progressive images in the class.

Congratulations on your A1. I've been happy owner since the first batch arrived at B&H and love it since then.

Bjørn: Yes, FCP will allow you to load the entire tape and then show you individual clips for every time the camera was turned on and off.

Steven: I'm with you on tape. The only tapeless medium that would work for us at this point is Sony's XDCAM, replacing tapes with discs. An XDCAM disc is $30, about the same as an equivalent length DVCAM tape. I have to always keep the original tapes. Sony has, basically, solved the tapeless issue with XDCAM and XDCAM HD, but I don't see that trickling down to smaller cameras. For one thing, the discs are greater in diameter than the XH A1 is tall.

Some sort of solid state device, like P2 but not an expensive proprietary format, has the capability of eventually getting there, I think. One gig SD cards are under $30 now, which at HDV compression would take 12 gigs, approximately for an hour. If you could arrange 6 two gig SD cards in a little package, that would be $360 at current prices for the cards--maybe that would eventually drop to 30 bucks so you wouldn't have to reuse them. Still more than DV tape but not out of sight. I think something will come along one of these days to make tape obsolete...but not for a number of years, and I'm not going to hold my breath. Maybe a more efficient compression combined with increased capacity cards or something like that will happen eventually. For the foreseeable future, though, it's going to be very difficult to beat a little miniDV tape for 9 bucks that you can file away safely in a box and not have to worry about re-using or crashing.

Although I would to go tapeless for initial acquistion and NLE import, we still need logical archiving scheme.I don't understand why you think you have to give up tape as an archiving scheme. It's not an "either / or" proposition. You're not losing the ability to use tape. I'm not sure why some people seem to think that they are. Tapeless acquistion on the XH A1 does not replace tape... it's an addition to tape.

Perhaps you guys didn't read that part of my post, so I'll repeat it: you simply record to a Mini DV cassette in the camera at the same time as you're recording to a FireStore or similar tapeless acquistion device, for a confidence back-up and instant archiving.

I have to always keep the original tapes.And you'll get to keep on keeping them with tapeless acquistion. You're making two identical recordings at the same time: one on tape to Mini DV cassette, for archival purposes, and one to a hard disc recorder, for immediate drag-and-drop to an editing timeline, completely bypassing the video capture process.

..an HDV deck priced below HV10, let's say around $1k...Oops -- you're stating the price you'd like to see, not what the manufacturer is most likely to charge. I doubt they'd offer one for less than $2k at the lowest. How much are the JVC and Sony HDV VTRs again?

...
Oops -- you're stating the price you'd like to see, not what the manufacturer is most likely to charge. I doubt they'd offer one for less than $2k at the lowest. How much are the JVC and Sony HDV VTRs again?

I know about that, but... for $1k it's still feasible. HV10 costs less than that. Remove the lens, sensor, DSP etc, put the rest in different enclosure, make it a little bit sturdier, add some extra I/O options... If they intend to shift their company image more into pro video area, they have to be aggressive. From engineering point of view it's easy task, they could release such product in 6 months in they wanted to, but marketing wizards are in control.

Does FCP automatically break the footage into seperate clips (like IMovie) ??
Which function does that?

Yes. The HDV capture window is different to the SD capture window. It automatically breaks clips if you select that option (in the capture window) before you start capturing a tape.

EDIT:

Bjørn: Yes, FCP will allow you to load the entire tape and then show you individual clips for every time the camera was turned on and off.
Ah... you'd answered this already, Bill! Didn't see :-)

I know about that, but... for $1k it's still feasible. HV10 costs less than that. Remove the lens, sensor, DSP etc, put the rest in different enclosure, make it a little bit sturdier, add some extra I/O options... If they intend to shift their company image more into pro video area, they have to be aggressive. From engineering point of view it's easy task, they could release such product in 6 months in they wanted to, but marketing wizards are in control.

And ultimately the deck would sell at 1% the volume of the HV10 (if even that much), so its actually cheaper for Canon to sell you a high-volume HV10 than a low-volume deck.

-Terence

Terence -

I think you are right about that 1% when compared vs HV10 sales stats, but it's because 99% of buyers are interested in HV10 as camcorder, not as a deck :)

Introduction of actual deck would make it more attractive to current owners of H1, G1 and A1, and again, I'm sure would improve the image of the company on pro video market. Development of such product wouldn't be expensive either because most of building blocks are already available. I think they are not trying to position their brand next to Sony, Pana or JVC and prefer to stay in the middle. It seems unlikely that Canon will introduce 1/2" or 2/3" class camcorders in the near future, for example, but I'm more than glad they make such a fine products in 1/3" class.

Insert tape. Rewind to start. Open HDV capture window and hit the capture buttons. 63 minutes later you have your tape nicely broken up into clips (well, with FCP you do, not sure about other software)...




In FCP are you just hooking up your camera, opening the log and capture window, and pressing CAPTURE NOW to get it to import all of your footage and break it into individual clips?

I can't figure out how you are doing this...

FCP detects every time the camera was started and stopped and you end up with every clip in the browser. Technically it really doesn't capture in individual clips--the entire length of the tape will be one big clip in your capture scratch folder, but for editing purposes you will see all the individual clips. So, as far as the editor is concerned, it magically loads in individual clips. Avid does something similar in that it gives you a little pink mark at every stop/start point, but it doesn't separate and name each clip.

On another note, I reread most of this thread and way back there I said something about HDCAM...I meant XDCAM, not HDCAM, heheheh. No comparison with HDCAM.

Avid does something similar in that it gives you a little pink mark at every stop/start point, but it doesn't separate and name each clip.


Actually Bill, it depends on your settings. Avid gives you a choice of creating markers, sub-clips, or both, of the master clip. The sub-clip method isn't really a clip at all. It's basically just a pointer to where the original master clip is, but can be utilized as if it is an actual clip. It renames the master clip with a .sub.### extension. You can set this up automatically but at least with my version there's a 100 subclip limit, so I elect to do this after capture by highlighting all master clips in a bin & then running the scene detection function to bypass the 100 subclip limit.

Bill

FCP detects every time the camera was started and stopped and you end up with every clip in the browser. Technically it really doesn't capture in individual clips--the entire length of the tape will be one big clip in your capture scratch folder, but for editing purposes you will see all the individual clips. So, as far as the editor is concerned, it magically loads in individual clips. Avid does something similar in that it gives you a little pink mark at every stop/start point, but it doesn't separate and name each clip.

On another note, I reread most of this thread and way back there I said something about HDCAM...I meant XDCAM, not HDCAM, heheheh. No comparison with HDCAM.

Thanks Bill. Is this something that only works with HDV? I have been using Final Cut for years and I have never noticed this feature. I've always set ins and outs and logged clip by clip. This is my first experience with HDV footage though so that might explain why I've never seen it before.

I think it works with anything. It's in one of the menus, I don't recall which. Something like DV scene detection, and you have to turn it on and then it will stay on. I use it exclusively now, then name the clips after the fact. However, I don't capture an entire tape at once. I usually set in and out points about every 20 minutes. That way I can copy the capture scratch files to DVDs for backup if I want.

Awesome thanks Bill! Good thinking to break it up for DVD capture scratch back up.

FWIW, I learned years ago that the only way any kind of DV Scene Detection will work, regardless which NLE or capture method is used is that the camera the raw footage was shot on has to have the date & time set. If it isn't, it has nothing to detect.

Bill

And someone knows if the 24f mode works with Adobe Premiere? I am about to get the A1 and a dell XPS with Adobe Premiere and I've just read that Avid won't handle the 24f.

I am confused :(

I'll probably put a spanner in here, but what the hell....

I'm not a lover of 24f (25f here). Its ok for scenes which don't have a great deal of panning shots in them, but after doing quite a few tests, 50i seems to give (me anyway) much nicer results. I'd rather deinterlace if needed, especially if you deinterlace using the 50fps option, although you do lose a little in resolution. I think running 50i on a 100th shutter speed works just fine and gives you a few more options in the editing stage, it also works great for slow motion.

Just my opinion.

Mark