As mentioned in the honour and glory thread...
Here is the new cut for my entry.

EDIT: This is my third attempt at making a short film. It was shot with my Sister's older camcorder which has a weird widescreen setting that outputs 704 x 480.

http://www.morecowbellpictures.com/downloads/Chuck.wmv

The story is that of a Doctor who avoids telling his patient some bad news. It is a dark comedy with a few quirks. ;)

The aspect ratio is fixed and there is some new footage in this one. I would really appreciate any critiques that anyone can offer. I'm looking to learn from my mistakes.

Thanks,

Mike

Haha, Crown Royal, my fav :)

I liked the story... but I did notice a few things, and I may be too picky here because they're all technical.

The audio: It sounded like you used the on cam mic... is this right? the doctor sounded a little distant at times, plus there was one scene where it faded to black in mid-sentence, it kinda threw me off. I really can't make any suggestions because I don't have enough experience with audio... but even if you used some cheap wireless lavs it might come out better than the on-cam mic.

The lighting: The mix of the overhead fluorescent lights and the halogen or whatever desk lamp was terrible... Consider turning off the overhead lamps and lighting the entire room with your own lighting, or put some of the color filters on the fluorescent lights (I forgot which one, maybe someone else can help).... it will make the florescent lighting look more like the desk lamp and it will match up much better if you don't have the option of lighting the entire room yourself.

I thought the camera angles were pretty good, it kept everything interesting. I also liked how the doctor kept calling the receptionist names, that was funny

Other than that I think it was good, especially for a third try. I know its probably better than I could do at even my first attempt :)

You called it! Everything was recorded with the cam-mic. To make things worse there was this "whining" sound that kept coming on and off in the ceiling duct work. Very hard to tweak out...

There was no lighting to speak of, we just shot with what was available in the room. I really need to pick up some lighting and sound equipment... I'm just starting out and this is more of a hobby for me.

BTW, the reason why that scene cuts during mid sentence is because he turns and looks directly at the camera... :)

I really need to bite the bullet and try to get things "lit" better though. I may also pick up a USB mic that I can hook up to my laptop. That should help a little...

Thanks again, I really appreciate all of this!

This is funny!
I have noticed that the part where the doctor is pouring a drink for himself was a bit too long, almost 19 sec. it could be broken down to shorter pieces with 1 close-up shot. that's just my feeling, some other folks may not agree with me :)

Mike,

Both this version and the shorter version work. The music added to this version may be quite a bit too loud, I'd pull the level back at least to 75% of where it is maybe even 60%.

Just a suggestion, try and see what YOU think, though.

Bruce

I liked it. Funny concept and performance but I think that the video could be tightened up a bit. The pace needs to be quicker throughout. As they say, "Brevity is the soul of wit." Unfortunately, the pace of the acting needs to pick up as well. I think there's only so much you are going to be able to do with editing. Still, it is an enjoyable piece and with a few trims would be much more watchable.

I also agree with the sound comment. Better mic-ing would help.

Thanks guys, I agree completely. The first "shorter cut" was better in many ways. I'm going to re-cut the entire thing, keep a few changes, but keep it short.

I'm also going to work on the audio...
It's tough though, the camera mic picked up a lot of noise.

I appreciate all the comments. The editing practice will be good for me.

I can't wait to get my first camera in April! I'm thinking of going with the HV20, a few lens attachments, and the boom mic attachment.

Mike

What is that noise in the background? There's someone talking and I spend most of the video trying to figure out what he was saying. Did I miss something?

What is that noise in the background? There's someone talking and I spend most of the video trying to figure out what he was saying. Did I miss something?LOL! Sorry, it's a British radio station that he's listening to. I think I'll remove that in the new edit.. :)

Hey Mike what are you using to edit this with?

Hey Mike what are you using to edit this with?
Premiere Pro 1.5

Why?

Any tips you can give me?

Mike

The editing part is good, and I really can't remember but I think PPor 1.5's audio tools were pretty limited. I use FCP 5 myself, but I came from PPro 1.5 a year or so ago.

Do you have Audition 2? I think Audition 2 has a nice noise removal similar to Final Cut Studio's Soundtrack. In Soundtrack it's called "Set noise print" and "remove noise" or similar. If you have Audition, try that... but I think you'll need the latest version.

Basically, for the background noise, you just select a portion of the noise that is noise only, then Audition would use that "print" to cancel out the noise in the rest of the clip, sorta like those noise canceling headphones work.

I've had very good luck with removing similar noise on my audio with Soundtrack Pro. I wish I could tell you more about Audition, but I haven't really used it that much. If you don't have it I would suggest getting a demo version. If you work with audio a lot it's well worth the $400.

I have Audition 1.5 but I'll upgrading the entire suite soon.

I'll have to see if I can do as you mentioned. Thanks!

Mike

Beside the aspect ratio business, I actually liked the original version better. For the most part, anyway. I definitely like Richard's exclamation in this updated cut; I think hearing him from the waiting room is much funnier.

I would have left the x-ray alone, though. The static shot of the big blob in his brain is effective enough as it was, I don't think the effects or sound added anything substantial. Seemed a bit out of place, really, what with the glow. Everything else in the film seemed fairly believable, down to earth, realistic, but I've never seen an x-ray do that. It called attention to itself, whereas the first iteration of the shot fit in rather naturally.

I'm in agreement with the comments about the radio station being removed. I figured it was either that or a TV offscreen, but it's a little distracting. It's never seen, it isn't terribly important to this story, and it sounds like it's only a small section of speech that's been looped, so I think you'd do well to eliminate it. Also on the audio front, the page at the beginning is just a bit too difficult to understand. I'd tone down the reverb (or is it just echo?) a little.

I must strongly disagree with Nick, however, with regard to the lighting. The only time you would really need to match color temperatures is if you're using unseen lighting equipment to supplement existing illumination. If, for example, you're in a room with sunlight coming in through a window, and you need to fill in some of the darker areas in the room, you'd want the color to match, so it seems natural. But in a situation like this, the mismatch is expected: a doctor's office would have fluorescent lighting, and a desk would have an incandescent lamp. It's a natural part of the scene's setting. Whether or not we actually get to see the source of the overhead lights, we assume they're there, and it's not strange to see the two kinds of light together like this.

Beyond that, I'd tend to feel that keeping everything the same color would be a bit dull. The way it is now, there's some separation provided by the two lights. The background is blue, and your doctor is ever so slightly red. Lighting your scene in this way is the textbook example of using color to bring something important to the foreground, as a matter of fact. I like it, and I think it gives the shots a touch of depth I don't believe you'd have if everything were matched to the fluorescents.

Beside the aspect ratio business, I actually liked the original version better. For the most part, anyway. I definitely like Richard's exclamation in this updated cut; I think hearing him from the waiting room is much funnier.

Thanks, I agree completely!

I would have left the x-ray alone, though. The static shot of the big blob in his brain is effective enough as it was, I don't think the effects or sound added anything substantial. Seemed a bit out of place, really, what with the glow. Everything else in the film seemed fairly believable, down to earth, realistic, but I've never seen an x-ray do that. It called attention to itself, whereas the first iteration of the shot fit in rather naturally.

I just thought I would try a little something "over the top". I'm not sure which way I'm going to go on this one...

I'm in agreement with the comments about the radio station being removed. I figured it was either that or a TV offscreen, but it's a little distracting. It's never seen, it isn't terribly important to this story, and it sounds like it's only a small section of speech that's been looped, so I think you'd do well to eliminate it. Also on the audio front, the page at the beginning is just a bit too difficult to understand. I'd tone down the reverb (or is it just echo?) a little.

I agree and I have removed the radio station in the new edit that I'm working on. The "page" is supposed to be like that. I want it to be hard to understand. :) I think that it is like most hospital pages... very difficult to understand. ;) Might be a bit too much echo though.

I must strongly disagree with Nick, however, with regard to the lighting. The only time you would really need to match color temperatures is if you're using unseen lighting equipment to supplement existing illumination. If, for example, you're in a room with sunlight coming in through a window, and you need to fill in some of the darker areas in the room, you'd want the color to match, so it seems natural. But in a situation like this, the mismatch is expected: a doctor's office would have fluorescent lighting, and a desk would have an incandescent lamp. It's a natural part of the scene's setting. Whether or not we actually get to see the source of the overhead lights, we assume they're there, and it's not strange to see the two kinds of light together like this.

Beyond that, I'd tend to feel that keeping everything the same color would be a bit dull. The way it is now, there's some separation provided by the two lights. The background is blue, and your doctor is ever so slightly red. Lighting your scene in this way is the textbook example of using color to bring something important to the foreground, as a matter of fact. I like it, and I think it gives the shots a touch of depth I don't believe you'd have if everything were matched to the fluorescents.

Well, not much I can do about the lighting at this point. I must confess, I really didn't attempt to light any of the scenes very well.

You guys have been great! I'm going to be posting a "final edit" in the next few days. Hopefully some of you will give it one last look and final critique.

Thanks again,

Mike

http://www.morecowbellpictures.com/downloads/Dodged_a_Bullet.wmv

Well... here is what will probably be my last posted cut.

Please let me know what you think. I've added some music and removed/edited a few scenes.

Thanks again everyone!

Mike

Mike:

Nice job on the final. I thought the drink in the end was really superfolous, and kind wrecked the feel of the film. Sound for calls is much better, too.

I just realized you and I hand very similar last scenes in the films we did for honor an glory..

Thanks Chris!


I just realized you and I hand very similar last scenes in the films we did for honor an glory..
Yes, in a way that's true. :)

Mike

I love it! The music helps a lot, the movie doesn't seem as stretched out now. I'm with Chris on the drink, I think things work better without it. And I'm not sure if it's just my imagination, but the page in the beginning seems much clearer now, while still retaining the sound of a hospital PA announcement.

A very funny film you've made here, great work!

I love it! The music helps a lot, the movie doesn't seem as stretched out now. I'm with Chris on the drink, I think things work better without it. And I'm not sure if it's just my imagination, but the page in the beginning seems much clearer now, while still retaining the sound of a hospital PA announcement.

A very funny film you've made here, great work!

I worked on the page just a tad... I actually just increased the volume ever so slightly. I really appreciate all the comments and critiques that you guys have given me. It's the only way to learn... :)

Thanks again,

Mike

I must strongly disagree with Nick, however, with regard to the lighting. The only time you would really need to match color temperatures is if you're using unseen lighting equipment to supplement existing illumination. If, for example, you're in a room with sunlight coming in through a window, and you need to fill in some of the darker areas in the room, you'd want the color to match, so it seems natural. But in a situation like this, the mismatch is expected: a doctor's office would have fluorescent lighting, and a desk would have an incandescent lamp. It's a natural part of the scene's setting. Whether or not we actually get to see the source of the overhead lights, we assume they're there, and it's not strange to see the two kinds of light together like this.

Robert, I have to agree with you here. I guess I was just caught up in the whole "those lights don't match" I just went off on a limb. In a real doctor's office you'd have both and it's more realistic. I guess I was just thinking more lighting for talking heads...

On the new cut: way to go. I really like the music on this one better, and taking the drink out makes it feel much better. I also like how you took out that pulsing and sound effects from the x-ray. Very funny video, great job.

Nick, thanks for that. We really had a lot of fun making this.

I have a string of scenes that we shot of the Doctor telling the patient (in not so direct ways) that he is going to die. :)

I think I'll rough edit them together and post them for kicks. Maybe you guys can let me know if you think they fit with the rest of the short.

Mike

Hi

As being the blushing one theese days, I should probably keep my mouth shot, but... BTW I watched both links.

1.
Wow... You got an idea out of the challenge! My idea was/is so much cheaper! Wow!
like the idea a lot.

2.
When i DL this, it looks kinda soft and without any CC
CC... Looks not planned here. Focus seems soft throughout 'cept from shallow dof shots. Hm...

3.
Pacing
I get the idea of an ending point, BUT
as you do that so rapidly & without images... dunno if that's really it, though. Just feels kinda weird @ the end.

Audio.

OK.
Sounds harsh. And I have no right nor intention to.
I know.
But I like the idea. I just don't like the smalltime TV-network feel to it I guess.

The idea is sorta better and shorter.

But!!!!
Good work!

Gunleik
(who really hopes not to offend)

No problem, thanks for the input!

The sound was direct from the on camera mic of an old camcorder. The sound quality is pretty poor...

Here are some clips I threw together...

www.morecowbellpictures.com/downloads/You're_going_to_die.wmv

The Doctor is contemplating different ways to tell his patient the bad news. ;)

Mike,

Haven't had (or made! haha) the time to read through everyone else's comments, but here's my take on the final cut (from the first post on the thread):

I like the idea and thought the ending was funny! Good job!

There were only 2 things that i didn't like. My biggest gripe was how long it took to get to the conclusion which, again, was very funny. Second, was the doctor constantly hanging up on the person he was talking to? haha that was funny too... except i'm not sure that was the intent. The problem is that the person on the phone was never actually saying any real words so i wasn't completely sure that the doctor was hanging up on him or what... If the person on the phone had been saying something, you could at least have gradually made him more irate with being hung up on, you could have cut off his words, etc.

that's it really. Just those 2 things. Hahaha i loved it when the sick patient just fell to his knees and fell over. Oh that's one last thing, that last moment might have been funnier if it had either cut after he fell to the floor (cutting out the doctor's "phew, that takes care of that!") or if the doctor's response had been faster and more pronounced (like a "YES!! Peanut Butter Jelly Time!!" or something). This might be just me though, so don't take this last critique as anything more than my personal preference because i'm really not sure that anyone would agree with this.

Mike,

Haven't had (or made! haha) the time to read through everyone else's comments, but here's my take on the final cut (from the first post on the thread):

I like the idea and thought the ending was funny! Good job!

There were only 2 things that i didn't like. My biggest gripe was how long it took to get to the conclusion which, again, was very funny. Second, was the doctor constantly hanging up on the person he was talking to? haha that was funny too... except i'm not sure that was the intent.

Yes, that was the intent. He hung up, cutting him off at times. :)

The problem is that the person on the phone was never actually saying any real words so i wasn't completely sure that the doctor was hanging up on him or what...

Yes he was... maybe it wasn't clear enough? Hmm... you should be able to make out what he's saying?

If the person on the phone had been saying something, you could at least have gradually made him more irate with being hung up on, you could have cut off his words, etc.

Being his male secretary, he has learned to live with it. ;)

that's it really. Just those 2 things. Hahaha i loved it when the sick patient just fell to his knees and fell over. Oh that's one last thing, that last moment might have been funnier if it had either cut after he fell to the floor (cutting out the doctor's "phew, that takes care of that!") or if the doctor's response had been faster and more pronounced (like a "YES!! Peanut Butter Jelly Time!!" or something). This might be just me though, so don't take this last critique as anything more than my personal preference because i'm really not sure that anyone would agree with this.

Thanks for the comments!

Audio is something I definitely had trouble with on this one.

Mike

"You know that old expression, 'live every day like it was your last'?"
"Yah."
"Well you can add that to the list of things I should have told you yesterday."

OK, please don't take these to heart. I'm nothing special, just a guy who loves movies. Here are my observations...

The pace is really slow. For a short it may not seem like a big deal since most people are willing to sit through 5 minutes of anything. But this pace is slow and it needs a boost. Jokes need pace too. Watch some of Benny Hill's shorts, notice how he paces his jokes. Monte Python is another fine example but feel free to pick your favorite comedy show and count how many times the audience laughs and how intense the laughter is and how much time elapses between them.

The doctor should have a motivation for leaving his office and crossing in front of the waiting room. Bathroom, break room, pizza delivery guy who's not allowed into the buildings because of company policy.

Need more cuts. I'm guilty of doing this myself. You need to make it more visually interesting by filming more angles. Make the angles fit the narrative. Don't forget to do some isolation shots, a hand tapping a pencil, a knee anxiously bouncing, that kind of thing. These will absolutely save your butt in the editing room. One glaring example is when he looks at the x-ray. This needed three more angles at least.

There is also a logic problem. Nobody waits from 10:51 AM to 1:17 PM without talking/screaming at somebody. More room for comedy as patient after patient of Richard's comes in and is seen with little or no waiting.

The voice over thing in the beginning, you can lose that. To me, this doctor works in a private office, not a hospital. If you really want to sell/make it a hospital then you need some kind of establishing shot like an exterior of a real hospital. Then cut to the doctor at this desk as the announcement comes up in the soundtrack.

The ending is a joke. It's funny. To make it hilarious, I think you need to make the doctor sweat more. Telling this guy, this news, on this day is killing him. He asks Richard to do it for him. He calls his wife to see if she has any advice and in desperation asks if she'll come down and help him. Your actor is young enough, maybe this is his first day being in private practice. The more the doctor sweats the funnier the joke. The anger between the doctor and the person who keeps calling him reminding him he's got a patient waiting could really be built up too. It should build to a crescendo where the doctor finally yells at the phone "OKAY!" slams it down and walks to the waiting room. The cancer guy and the doctor are both fuming as they come face to face and then he drops dead there. Silence. Doctor's face. Receptionist's face. Richard's face. Everyone holds their collective breath for a moment then the Doctor walks over to the receptionist, "Call the morgue, tell them the togo order is ready and did you finish today's sudoku?" Fade out on that.

Just a few suggestions. Don't take any of this to heart, I'm critiquing the movie not the person. We do have the same sick sense of humor though.

I hope this helps some.

Thanks for that.... I agree with much of it. MANY more cuts/edits are needed.

As for comedy style, I agree with Monty Python, but I've always hated Benny Hill. Go figure... ;)

The pacing also needs work, I agree completely.

A couple of things... I work at a hospital. It's not supposed to be a private office, but that doesn't really matter. The PA announcement should have helped with that distinction. As for the waiting time... like I said... I work at a hospital. :) You might be surprised.

As for the joke at the end... I didn't want it to be too silly. That's why I didn't go with a silly joke.

I agree with many of your comments and I'm going to try and improve on my pacing and editing for the next flick. Hopefully we'll see something from you for the Honour & Glory challenge!

EDIT: Thanks again for taking the time to write that up, I really appreciate it. My goal is to keep learning as I go.

Mike