Is it best to make a self contained movie to bring into compressor?
Will that cut down on the render time?
Any suggestions for the blank DVDs for the master to be sent off for replication?
Any other useful tips for the best quality DVD master would be appreciated.
I'm sending off for 2500 DVDs & am just a tad bit nervous about it, especially since this will be my first DVD Studio project. (always just knocked something out quick in iDVD).

It's just SD at 52 minutes, chapter markers, but nothing else as far as special features.
Thanks in advance,
Chris

Chris from what I understand in my tutorials "self" is only required for HDV not SD. Unless you need to send the project to someone, it will just take longer to do a "self" than a "ref". hope that helps. Also, be sure to save to your "scratch disk", an external drive is recommended.

Hi Chris!

I did the same project like yours just 6 weeks ago, I videotaped, edit, authored and sent it out for mass duplication, around 800 Dvd's duplicated, delivered and everything came out fine... as of this moment.

I would just like to share my work scenario for this might help you:

After done with my editing I export my project to quicktime movie, I did'nt export it directly to compressor, unchecking the movie self contained, then in Compressor I import the file and opened up in the batch monitor, I click the settings and choose Dvd best quality 120 minutes - 4:3 (I choose that because my project was more than an hour 1/2) since yours is less you can select 60 minutes.

Once highlighted I select all, and once loaded back to the batch monitor I select the AIFF and deleted it leaving the Dolby 2.0 and M-peg 2...

In Inspector in the video encoder I did a bit budgeting (64 devided by x) "x" is the amount of time, then when I was happy with my settings I click submit.

The first 50% of the progress report was fast because it was encoding the audio and the remaining which is the video took a long time a very long time... I took a coffee break and even a nap...Then.. when its done, it's time to go to DVDSP.

In DVDSP I designed my menus and added chapter marks (should have done it in FCP or Compressor) Then I click build not burn because I want to burn it using Roxio Popcorn so I can select the lower burning speed setting...I used 4x speed for it was the only lowest Dvd Media available at CompUSA. I match my burning speed to the media speed. Burning it to lower speed gives you a better chance for playback compatibility on Dvd players...After that I send all my Dvd masters to the duplication company...oh! one more thing I used Dvd-r media.

Well that's it! Hope this helps and Goodluck to you!

Rickey

Great stuff, Thanks!!
Though that does bring up some more question.
First, the X speed of DVD media is just to say how fast it can be written, Right? Like a 16X can write at 16X but can also write at 4X for a better product. Is this not right???

2nd- Is the dolby 2.0 setting something that works with all my standard stereo audio from the project, in other words I don't have to build the project around a dolby format, that's done after the fact in compressor?

3rd- Will look it up, but what is the bit budgeting?

Thanks again,
Chris

1. Match burning speed to the media speed always
2. Right!
3. Bit Budgeting is calculating how much space you need on your Dvd for all your assets. You do Bit budgeting to make sure everything fits.

Quality vs File Size:

The most important factor in figuring out how many assets you can place on a DVD-Video disc is to balance the data rate of the MPEG-2 streams with the capacity of the DVD-R disc. With lower bit rate movies (5.7Mbps), the file sizes of the streams are smaller and more content can be placed on a disc. With higher bit rate movies (9.8Mbps), the files sizes of the streams are larger, of higher quality, but less content can be placed on a disc.

Rickey

Is it best to make a self contained movie to bring into compressor?


Hi Chris.

On this single point, the answer is "no", if you want the highest quality result.

The reason is that when you export from FCP, it WILL apply a render in that codec when exporting - even in DV or other intra-frame codecs. I'd previously thought that it only did that with inter-frame codecs like HDV, but I just had a training DVD ("The Art of Encoding using Compressor" by Ripple Training) arrive 2 hours ago by post from the US and it goes over the nitty-gritty about what is really happening inside FCP, Quicktime and Compressor. Wow.

I obviously can't quote from it (as this is their livelihood) but my short answer is to avoid self-contained and even reference movies (which still bring in the render files with them) and export straight from your FCP timeline to Compressor.

That's if you want the VERY highest quality results.

David
I have the training from "Larry Jordan" of " www.larryjordan.biz "Apple's "go to" guy. I am not familiar with "Ripple". Do they know something we don't about "self" and "ref" movies made in QT? My understanding is that self or ref in DV makes no difference. And that you must do "self" in HDV. Why I am not sure. Maybe what they say is true. If you have more info I would be very interested to know.

Thanks to all of you!
Very helpful.
I imagine that I'll be rendering for a good part of the day.
Peace,
Chris

Hi John.

I think it's very important to differentiate between "most expedient" workflow and "very best quality" workflow.

A lot of people like to export to Quicktime and then import to Compressor for one main reason: because they can then continue to use FCP while Compressor does the encoding job. The trade-off might be a slight hit on quality, but in the overall scheme of things, a number of people find this the most expedient way to work. It's perfectly okay by them and that's fine with me.

If someone asks, "what workflow gives the VERY best quality?" my answer is always "export directly to Compressor from the timeline." And that advice is not due to a training DVD which arrived yesterday. I've been giving that advice for months - based on practical experience and the evidence of my own eyes. The trade-off here is that the direct export to Compressor means that FCP will now be tied up with it and you can't use it for anything else until the encoding is finished.

So that's why some go with the expedient workflow (and keep working with FCP) and others like to go with the highest quality workflow. There's no totally right or wrong answer. It depends on each individual's needs and the requirements (or parameters) they're working under.

(And I definitely do not want to debate the merits of different training organizations. They're all great. Everyone should just pick the one that gives them the best results. And just use Google if you want to find more info about Ripple Training.)

My understanding is that self or ref in DV makes no difference. And that you must do "self" in HDV. Why I am not sure. Maybe what they say is true. If you have more info I would be very interested to know.
It's an easy one to test. Just export and import a clip 4-5 times saving as a reference movie and then repeat the process saving as a self contained one.

It's a no brainer once you see the results.

Liam.

Thanks David and Liam
Thanks for your insight.Liam, Just to save me the time...what is the difference after 4-5 times? Aside from the extra time it takes to do a "self". Enjoyed your website by the way. Just a question Liam. Is the timing on your opening video off because of the nature of the web? I noticed a lag when the "kick drum" comes in. Having been involved with foley and music for film/video and the like for the last 25-30 years, one thing that seems to be overlooked is that the brain takes longer to hear something it than ones eyes do to see. That's why even though hits can take place right on an image cue, they usually don't sound/look right. An average of 22ms to as much as a full second ahead of the next cut works wonders. Years ago I was doing some music and sound for a lead in to a "grizzily bear" scene. An experienced foley guy pointed out that the bear growl needed to come in a full 1/2 sec early. It worked. Oh well sorry to be miles off subject. Really appreciated your advice.

Having been involved with foley and music for film/video and the like for the last 25-30 years, one thing that seems to be overlooked is that the brain takes longer to hear something it than ones eyes do to see. That's why even though hits can take place right on an image cue, they usually don't sound/look right.
An average of 22ms to as much as a full second ahead of the next cut works wonders. Years ago I was doing some music and sound for a lead in to a "grizzily bear" scene. An experienced foley guy pointed out that the bear growl needed to come in a full 1/2 sec early. It worked. Oh well sorry to be miles off subject. Really appreciated your advice.

That's really interesting John (apologies for jumping on this thread). Something I'll definitely bear in mind (no pun intended).

Thanks David and Liam
Thanks for your insight.Liam, Just to save me the time...what is the difference after 4-5 times?


Hi John,
You shouldn't notice any difference, so long as you don't check the re-compress box.

Enjoyed your website by the way. Just a question Liam. Is the timing on your opening video off because of the nature of the web?

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it - the wonders of iweb (it amazes me that someone can build a program for html illiterate people like me), and yes you're right about the lag. Probably not a good idea to put a video that is so heavily cut-to-the-beat on the web (also, they were all encoded before I really understood anything about encoding). I'm going to redo all the video on the site, some time soon...

The original cuts fine, I'm with you on the ear/brain thing, and don't forget viewing distances, and the effect of dolby...

Cheers,

Liam.

1. Match burning speed to the media speed always

This is not correct.
Media can be burned at lower than the maximum speed without any problems whatsoever. I frequently burn at 8x with 16x disks in runs of 100 or more and have never had a problem.

This is not correct.
Media can be burned at lower than the maximum speed without any problems whatsoever. I frequently burn at 8x with 16x disks in runs of 100 or more and have never had a problem.


The media which is the Dvd disk has an organic dye that is contained inside the Dvd and it is design to have a hole burned in by a lazer, and if the Dvd spins over the lazer it expects the lazer to burn in a certain amount of time to cause that hole to burn in the organic dye.

If the disk instead of burning at 8x speed and rated for 8x speed turns around at 1x speed w/c is 8x slower, the hole that gets burned on organic dye is much larger cause the lazer on that spot is 8x longer than the disk is expecting.

Consequently, it's getting a big hole, maybe a hole that bleeds on to another track or into another pit that causes error.

Explain then why the disk manufacturers say "may be recorded at 1x up to 16x speed".
All I can tell you is that I have burned 1000's of disks at half speed without a problem.

It is generally acknowledged as good practice to burn Dvd at speeds no higher than 4x, but it is also important that you use good-quality blank media specifically designed for low-speed burning. Most computer media these days is designed for very high-speed burning, usually over 16x. Such discs may not give reliable results when burned at low speeds.

So, matching media and burning speed is critical. However, burning at very fast speeds is inherently less accurate than burning at low speeds. Precision will certainly fall as the speed increases — it's a necessary consequence of the physics of the burning process. Within reasonable limits, this reduced precision in the way the pits are burned isn't a problem for data discs because of the enhanced error protection they employ. Consequently, error checks on data discs will generally confirm that there is no significant increase in error rates when burned at high speeds when the media and burner are up to the task.

However, Dvd's work in a different way, they have a much lower error protection capability and rely on the spacing between the bumps and the angle of their edges to retrieve and decode the data properly. High-speed burning makes the problem much harder to resolve, and hence most experienced mastering engineers prefer to copy discs at relatively low speeds.

Don't underestimate the importance of the chemistry of the Dvd itself. Just like Dvd burners, not all are created equal and there is a significant difference in the quality of the media from different manufacturers, sometimes even from batch to batch from the same manufacturer.

Well, since I've had good success the way I currently burn, and until I see something official from a disk manufacturer, I will continue to do it the way that I have.

In regards to the audio. Compressor prompts to make an AIFF and a dolby.
The dolby is about a quarter the size.
If you have the room on the disc, should one go with the AIFF file?
I guess my question is, which is better to use if you have the disc space?
Thanks,
Chris

In regards to the audio. Compressor prompts to make an AIFF and a dolby.
The dolby is about a quarter the size.
If you have the room on the disc, should one go with the AIFF file?
I guess my question is, which is better to use if you have the disc space?
Thanks,
Chris

Hi Chris.

Yes, you can definitely go with AIFF if you have the disc space.

Dolby is compressed and AIFF (according to my understanding) is pretty much uncompressed.

So the strict answer to your question would be that AIFF is "better" (less compression).

However, I should mention that I find Dolby quality to be outstanding. The sound files are both efficient and outstanding. Others might be able to tell the difference between AIFF and Dolby, but I can't. I always use Dolby. Most Hollywood DVDs (if not all) use Dolby as well.

AIFF (according to my understanding) is pretty much uncompressed.It is uncompressed. On the DVD, this is known as "PCM" sound. If your goal is the highest possible sound quality, this may be the way to go.

Having said that, I agree that Dolby Digital (AC3) sounds pretty darn good. I have used it on all DVDs I have created so far, because even if space on your DVD is not a problem, maximum bitrate at playback may still be. In other words, the higher bitrate required to play PCM audio takes a precious amount away from the total managable bitrate, so there's less of it left for the video portion of your project.

Bottom line: unless you can state that perfect audio is key for your project and that video quality is not very important, use AC3 (Dolby Digital).

- Martin

Thanks Martin,
Unfortunately I already sent the disc out.
On the positive side, I viewed it first (of course) & the image quality was far superior to the other discs burned on iDVD.
Played it on a 3-4 year old "cheap" player, so I'm hoping that all is okay.
Thanks to all for the help.

It is generally acknowledged as good practice to burn Dvd at speeds no higher than 4x, but it is also important that you use good-quality blank media .

i have to agree with jeff. I have never had a problem with burning a disk at diff speeds. but, wouldnt your burner be set to automatically detect the speed of the disk? I use a mac and its set to auto. I do agree you have to use quality media. if youre using cheap media then I could see the problem. but thats like putting pleather in a mercedes!

Just wrenching this post back up from the depths (rather than start a new one).
I need to pick up some blank master DVD-R's this morning. Reading this thread (and others) it seems that it might be wise to pick up decent quality media.
However, locally (and I need them this morning) I can only really source either Verbatim or TDK - they need to be printable for a start but the only ones I can source are 16x. If this is my only choice might it be wise to set the mac to auto or set the burning speed much lower (which may then be less reliable?)?

Cheers.

Whilst on this topic I also seem to be having problems exporting a sequence to Compressor.
Have selected the whole sequence and mark the in and out point.
The File - Export - Compressor...which brings compressor up.

I keep finding that I either recieve a message stating:

"selection contains no media" (I have tried selecting all of the sequence/timeline) or I get as far as compressor and when selecting the preferable encoding option: 16:9 90 mins best in this case I then have yellow exclamations advising me that data (along those lines) is locked??

See error: http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g193/NorfBech/compressorerror.jpg

Any ideas? I can happily export as a QT ref file but would prefer to export/compress this way.

Many thanks.

I noticed on your JPEG that it says, "Destination is invalid or write protected".

Go to the "Destination" column and change it from "Source" to somewhere else (even if you need to make a new folder to put it in).

I noticed on your JPEG that it says, "Destination is invalid or write protected".

Go to the "Destination" column and change it from "Source" to somewhere else (even if you need to make a new folder to put it in).

Ah, ok I'll give that a whirl.
Apparantly there are similar problems with compressor which may mean deleting library files (hopefully not in my case - there is no background error on my notification):

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93234

Cheers.

Ok....that seems to be working (and thankfully no sifting through library commands and system reboots).
Created a new folder for Compressor files but not sure whether I should've pointed this at FCP projects?
Also unsure as to why using compressor over QT mov file would use barely any (if at all) memory? i.e. creating a huge QT self contained mov file, unless this is for showing on the web or another machine?

Thanks again David...

Hi David.

I'm glad it is now all working!

Hopefully, this will answer your question:

1/ FCP sequence > Compressor > .m2v and .ac3 files

2/ FCP sequence > QT movie or QT reference movie > Compressor or DVD SP > .m2v and .ac3 files

As you can see in 1/, the direct to Compressor workflow eliminates the need to create a QT or QT ref movie and so will use less space.

Mind you, the QT ref movie might use very little space (especially if it is short and simple) so it might even prove "negligible" concerning your space requirements.

Hi David.

I'm glad it is now all working!

Hopefully, this will answer your question:

1/ FCP sequence > Compressor > .m2v and .ac3 files

2/ FCP sequence > QT movie or QT reference movie > Compressor or DVD SP > .m2v and .ac3 files

As you can see in 1/, the direct to Compressor workflow eliminates the need to create a QT or QT ref movie and so will use less space.

Mind you, the QT ref movie might use very little space (especially if it is short and simple) so it might even prove "negligible" concerning your space requirements.

Cheers David....just nipped out and left compressor to do it's thing (movie/s is/are around an hour long). That was over an hour ago...is this usual for it to take around 2 hours to compress (for a 1 hour movie set to Best 90 min?).
Wondering if when I then import this/these .m2v and .ac3 files into DVDSP then burn the completed project that this will then take another couple of hours....I have 5 projects to compress and burn today!?!

No, it's not unusual (to paraphrase Tom Jones). You chose "Best", which is 2-pass, over "Fastest", which is single pass.

It depends on quality trade-off versus deadline.

If you want faster, you might try single-pass or iDVD or trying to get DVD SP to do the encoding (from a Quicktime reference movie), but I'm not sure if DVD SP is faster or slower than Compressor.

The good news is that the asset encoding is the long part. Once you have encoded your .m2v and .ac3 assets, the authoring, building and formatting in DVD SP can be really quick. It only took me about 10-15 minutes to do one in DVD SP this morning (after leaving Compressor on overnight to encode the .m2v and .ac3). Although DVD SP can take a bit longer if you put a short movie in the menu and you leave it to DVD SP to encode it.

No, it's not unusual (to paraphrase Tom Jones). You chose "Best", which is 2-pass, over "Fastest", which is single pass.

It depends on quality trade-off versus deadline.

If you want faster, you might try single-pass or iDVD or trying to get DVD SP to do the encoding (from a Quicktime reference movie), but I'm not sure if DVD SP is faster or slower than Compressor.

The good news is that the asset encoding is the long part. Once you have encoded your .m2v and .ac3 assets, the authoring, building and formatting in DVD SP can be really quick. It only took me about 10-15 minutes to do one in DVD SP this morning (after leaving Compressor on overnight to encode the .m2v and .ac3). Although DVD SP can take a bit longer if you put a short movie in the menu and you leave it to DVD SP to encode it.

That's good news....however, not sure what I've done here but from DVDSP I've 'added +' the file/s from the new compressor folder (.m2v and .ac3) but it only seems to import the video. Swapped this vid file over the current QT ref file (which I had already there in SP) and for some reason it plays as if zoomed in...and of course the audio is absent also.
One thing I noticed about DVDSP is you cannot appear highlight what you are selecting?
Have just played the m2v vid file in the view and it now looks ok, but I assume I have to somehow drag in the audio (and place them both together on the 'track')?

EDIT - I've dragged the .ac3 file in via add audio instead - with the QT file this was embedded within the file itself...sorry it sounds like I'm losing it here! I'd normally have a good read around and trial and error but time is passing!!

Cheers.

...one more time...honest...

The difference in quality between QT ref file in DVDSP and the Compressor imported m2v and ac3 files is huge. Might this be because DVDSP has yet to compress the QT ref file? It's almost day and night...really.

I was slightly worried that having two seperate files for video and audio might introduce synching issues...but that seems, on the 'simulate' function good so far.

Cheers.

Thanks David - I succesfully exported the ac3 & m2v files, slotted them into DVDSP project (into a track), built and formatted and tested on the TV DVD player - works fine....on really critical, close inspection there are a couple of things I wasn't entirely happy with but not noticeable under normal viewing I suspect.
Left the bit rate dials as they were but will experiment (more so when I start running HDV). Not sure if there are any further encoding to be carried out...I was reading a couple threads re HDV timelines to SD DVD - couldn't find a thread (I think I may have bookmarked one of your HDV-Compressor workarounds, bearing in mind I'm 25p and do not have a higher end mac pro).
But I'll come to that when I grab some HDV.
Thanks - another milestone passes by!!

Going back to compressor, in inspector there is an option set for 'native lower field dominance'...this somewhat confuses me as the imported footage is progressive...? Leave it as it is, or change this to progressive?

Huge thanks.

Going back to compressor, in inspector there is an option set for 'native lower field dominance'...this somewhat confuses me as the imported footage is progressive...? Leave it as it is, or change this to progressive?


That's great news that it all went well.

In answer to your question, page 132 of the compressor manual says:

"Field Dominance pop-up menu: Choose whether the top field or the bottom field of your interlaced source media file will be the dominant (first) field in the output MPEG-2 video file. If you choose Automatic (the default), Compressor analyzes the source video and attempts to determine field dominance automatically. Bottom field is dominant for DV source video. This setting pertains only to interlaced video output formats, not 720p."

If you shot in 576p25, your camera should have compressed it with the DV codec. If you shot with 576p50, then the camera should have compressed it with the HDV codec.

I'll assume that you shot it in 576p25 (DV codec) and that your sequence in FCP was also DV PAL. So it shouldn't hurt to leave it on lower (or bottom). But it probably wouldn't hurt to have set it to Progressive (or even Automatic), as a guess.

That's great news that it all went well.

In answer to your question, page 132 of the compressor manual says:

"Field Dominance pop-up menu: Choose whether the top field or the bottom field of your interlaced source media file will be the dominant (first) field in the output MPEG-2 video file. If you choose Automatic (the default), Compressor analyzes the source video and attempts to determine field dominance automatically. Bottom field is dominant for DV source video. This setting pertains only to interlaced video output formats, not 720p."

If you shot in 576p25, your camera should have compressed it with the DV codec. If you shot with 576p50, then the camera should have compressed it with the HDV codec.

I'll assume that you shot it in 576p25 (DV codec) and that your sequence in FCP was also DV PAL. So it shouldn't hurt to leave it on lower (or bottom). But it probably wouldn't hurt to have set it to Progressive (or even Automatic), as a guess.

Aye - spotted that quickly in the manual but my brain was doing somersaults yesterday. It's the fact that I shot in 576p25 then was asked which field I required as dominant - I presumed this related to interlaced video only...?
I checked the settings within the FCP project and the lower field was set as dominant - so this is what I used (though was tempted to switch it to progressive).
576p50 - is the SD HDV50 format? Have you ever used this aside from slow motion for 720p50. I've almost neglected this format on the HD100 but as I've recently been shooting 576p25 then I guess the quality of the 50 would be around the same.
Anyhow - all 5 have been compressed (I left one over night - ran in sleep mode which was handy...the missus wasn't too happy with the ultra bright iMac screen blazing out!). I have to add these to the DVDSP projects then build/format and deliver later this afternoon...I think I'm just about going to pull this one off!
Thanks for you guidance on this fella.