considering the advent of silly fast sd cards, in addition to the actual cost of them, im baffled as to why Panasonic havent pushed harder to get the larger capacity P2 cards out..

Im just amazed that despite the advent of upcoming cameras using the format, that capacity of the p2 itself is whats holding MANY people back from this incredible camera (im refering to the HVX here.. )

Now i dont know if its the file format or what have you which is causing these delays, or whether the fat file size restriction is another issue unto itself, but lets face it, many people are jumping ship because of it.

I for one am about a fortnight away from givin up on this camera and jumping the Canon wagon..

Ive ditched my 2 Z1's, and for a while now, Ive had 20grand sitting here waiting to invest in some new gear.. and slowly and surely Pana have kept me waiting...
P2? as far as im concerned are stupidly overpriced.. considering the additional storage facilities as well as archiving requirements needed to ensure integrity of the project up to delivery... lets face it, its a different ballgame and it requires afew elements to get the msot out of it, which dont have anything to do with the cam itself..

Dont get me wrong, im a Pana fan from way back.. my DVX100's are still the workhorses in my studio... but even travelling with a laptop and extra drive, in addition to the advent of BD as a feasable archiving method, P2 still doesnt cut it for run and gun longform projects..

So what do i do with my cash? Do i wait until a AVCHD P2 camcorder is released? With the compression giving me longer recording time but comparable results to DVCPRoHD... and still pooing on HDV? Or do i jump the HDV wagon, which i already did and regretted?

So whats gonna be Pana?

Do you want my money or not?

Sorry for the rant, but im looking at this camera and despite the additional workflow, the P2 system and recording format just cannot be denied that they are the way of the future.. but wht is Panas definition of "future" ??
Do they honestly thing this camera will last longer than 3 years before its supersceded? And in 3 years, what size P2 will we have? 32gb? 64gb? In 3 years, will teh cost of a 64gb P2 card be acceptable for a camera which will most likely be supersceded by a more efficient format?

Reason i was triggered was that I was just working with some 4yr old DV50 footage on an old Digisuite im fixing up for a buddy.. and u know what, the colour and motion is bloody incredible (and this footage is about 4 years old) compared to some of the "better" hdv ive shot in more welcomed ideal conditions..

Fair enough resolution is obviously different, but theres more to image than how many pixels i can fit into a box..

Anyways, its 130am, and im still at it..

Just curious what actual users take is on this, as im really feeling let down. I dont want to go HDV, but i will if i have to. And that decision is solely based on what Pana have in store with regard to P2

Right now, the A1 and XLH1 look like my best options..

And in 3 years, what size P2 will we have? 32gb? 64gb?
32GB will be here in about 9 months. In three years they'll be at 128GB. 10 hours of 720/24pN in-camera at once without swapping cards at all.

32GB will be here in about 9 months. In three years they'll be at 128GB. 10 hours of 720/24pN in-camera at once without swapping cards at all.

At what cost for 32GB and 128GB? What memory cards will be available from others in three years?

At what cost for 32GB and 128GB?Keep in mind that memory card cost seldom rises over time... only capacity does (including P2). For example I can buy a 1GB SD card for less than what I paid for a 64MB SD card three years ago.

Keep in mind that memory card cost seldom rises over time... Yep. Same thing with hard drives. You can get 400GB for $150, but the $10 10GB hard drive is nowhere to be found. The business model for desktop hard drives is built around the $100 to $300 price range, and has been for some time.

What will be interesting is when hard drives have more capacity than most people need (most people don't edit 4k video...), and when solid state is big enough and fast enough to meet the needs. After a while, more performance is moot, and the new business model takes over.

This phenomena is described (in painful detail) in The Inventors Dilemma, which was published a number of years ago. The authors looked at the change from 15" hard drives (main frames) to 7" hard drives (mini computers) to 3-1/2" drives (desktop PCs). In each case the cheaper technology had enough performance to do the job, and the old business model of the expensive technology couldn't adapt.

Keep in mind that memory card cost seldom rises over time... only capacity does (including P2). For example I can buy a 1GB SD card for less than what I paid for a 64MB SD card three years ago.

You are absolutly correct. But, those other cards have many applications and users. SD cards and other things enjoy wide spread use, nearly universal standardization with drives. I'm not sure that the P2 will follow the same route. We will see soon.

Mike

I just bought an 8 gig Flash Card for my Nikon $79.99
It is fast enough to do 1 fps timelapse for over 900
frames....I also did a 5000 frame exposure bracketed
time-lapse at a 6 sec interval. And it is interesting to
note that RED announced CF, Express Card and Sata
capabilities. Not to mention an on-board 320 gig
drive below the cost of an 8 gig P2 card or the Firestore????

Peter,

I've been caught up in the same purchase, decision making scenario /
Panasonic/Canon taking all factors involved in consideration.

My final decision was built around the +- 3 year projection for devolpment on p2 ,taking projected purchase costs in consideration.

Allowing the same time span for portable hdsdi recording devices to develop
as a more affordable medium to make uncompressed accuisition an affordable
reality. I also took the development of intermediate codec technology and compression technology in consideration as a second affordable option to
fully uncompressed hdsdi ingest for the same 3 year period.

Knowing the technical implications shooting & editing Mpeg 2, taking all given
factors involved in the Texas shootout and feedback from this forum members
in consideration , I went shooting with both the cams.

Visiting American & European production crew gave me first hand field reports
on both the cameras taking our harsh conditions in consideration.

My final OBJECTIVE / BUY A 3- IN -ONE -CAM .
SD - HDV - UNCOMPRESSED HD VIA HDSDI.
- USING HDV MERELY AS A CROSSOVER MEDIUM TO FUTURE UNCOMPRESSED
OR COMPRESSED INTERMEDIATE PORTABLE RECORDABLE MEDIUMS.

This forum played a great part in the final decision / I,ve bought the
Canon XLH1 combined with a Cineform NLE workflow.

Working for the past 5 months on the gear has been a positive experience
taking in consideration that there's different tools for different needs and
that my pick depended on my aesthetic preferences / working style and post
production workflow.

Greetings.

Herman / Cape-Town.

Personally I would wait until NAB, get some face-time with the HPX500 and go that route, rather than going back to any iteration of HDV. With (4) P2 slots rather than the limiting 2-slots on the HVX your long-form needs would easily be met - especially since the 16gb cards are to be available at the time the camera is released and, with the larger imager and added pro-features for both lenses and audio controls you'd be in the best of all worlds.

But at the end of the day - speaking from 20+ years of pro-shooting experience - you've got to be happy with your equipment choices. Creativity suffers when you're dealing with hardware frustrations so if waiting for the next-gen P2 cam doesn't fit your timeline then maybe the tape-based HDV cams are better suited for you.

What will be interesting is when hard drives have more capacity than most people need

Personally I don't think we will ever really reach this point because it's a constantly moving target. I remember very clearly being in awe of my 20MB Apple Hard Disk 20 in 1985, and I couldn't even imagine filling that up.

A one terrabyte drive can only store ~250 standard definition DVD's, and it seems likely people may want several thousand in their libraries someday. And of course you will also have google maps of the whole planet at 1 meter resolution pre-installed on your laptop (or iPhone) :-)

Personally I don't think we will ever really reach this point because it's a constantly moving targetBe careful with that "ever" word. Time doesn't rest. ;)

You make a good point. Expectations constantly grow.

However, I wonder if we won't see disc-free laptops before long. Businesses want people to have e-mail and Excel, but don't care if their sales force can carry hundreds of DVD files with them.

I've read that some people are using disc-free Linux network machines. They load the OS from the network into RAM and all storage is networked in.

One reason that I'm hoping for fast(!) solid state memory is that I'm a composer who uses sample libraries. Currently samplers load the start of every sample into RAM. When you play a note, the RAM-stored note plays, and the disc streams as the heads seek the rest of the sample. Hopefully, the data from the HDD is there before the RAM runs dry.

The problem is that RAM is expensive, and the OS hosts only so much memory, so us composers can't load up our full templates on one machine. Plus, HDD speeds limit the polyphony we can get.

If solid state is just a bit faster than an HDD, we get more polyphony. But the real win is that there is virtually no seek time, so we can play straight from the solid-state HDD replacement.

For composers we don't need write speed. We don't need much more than a few hundred gig. But if we can get rid of read seek time, life will get much, much better!

This phenomena is described (in painful detail) in The Inventors Dilemma, which was published a number of years ago.

Thanks for the reminder to buy this book. Here are the specifics :

The Innovator's Dilemma: The Revolutionary Book that Will Change the Way You Do Business (Collins Business Essentials) (Paperback)
by Clayton M. Christensen

Peter try it, you might like it.

Thanks for the reminder to buy this book.You might check you local library.

The book has a great title and presents a great analysis about static business models and dynamic technologies. But they can't sell a 50 page book. So they add a few hundred pages of details and stats about old hard drives. Some chapters are dry as vermouth.

The concept is brilliant, yet you can digest the meaningful parts in an evening or two. BTW, there are now some additional, newer books in the series.

Peter,

AVCHD is maxed out at 24mb/s. At that rate it will look better than HDV since it is based on a more efficient codec than long GOP Mpeg 2. However, it will not come close to DVCProHD. What I believe you are referring to is AVC-Intra, which I believe will be available as an option in a couple of new cameras from Panasonic. AVC-Intra will record to the same P2 cards that you seemingly hate, so there won't be any advantage there.

Currently, AVCHD is being sold on the consumer market. It can record to multiple formats, including hard drive, San Disk, DVD. The highest quality, as far as I know, is around 13 mb/s, which probably looks no better than HDV. Plus, since there is currently no real NLE solution, the format is not even practical at this time. I might consider the format over HDV if the chips are at least 1/3rd inch, 3 chips, at least a 16x optical zoom lens, quality up to at least 20mb/s, NLE with a native editing solution and professional features that are similar to the pro hdv cameras like the Sony HVR V1 or Canon XHA1, but I would never consider it as a replacement for a dvcprohd camera such as the HVX 200. Maybe we'll have more answers at NAB.

even with the HPX500 packed to the gills with 16GB of P2, you're only getting an hour of continuous record time, and that just isn't cutting it for field recording.

32GB P2 is nine months away, but my RED camera and 2 x 320 GB storage will ship in September or October--nice!

even with the HPX500 packed to the gills with 16GB of P2, you're only getting an hour of continuous record time, and that just isn't cutting it for field recording.

32GB P2 is nine months away, but my RED camera and 2 x 320 GB storage will ship in September or October--nice!

Really, an hour's worth of 1080p24 isn't enough? You suppose all the years of tape-based cameras that's what we've been saying all along - that an hour just can't cut it?

Here's an example of HPX500 run times based on card size:

With (4) 4GB cards-
1080p24 = 16 min
720p24PN = 40 min

Double those numbers for 8GB cards; double them again for 16GB cards, which means you'd have just a tad over 2.5 hours of continuous record time in 720p24PN on the 500.

I was just at the 48 Hour 'Filmapalooza" last weekend and had many discussions with shooters who work on various genres, from long-form documentary to full-length feature films. The consensus about constant, single-clip shooting and the need for ultra-long single clip record time for media was unanimous: Nobody has ever had a single clip that lasted an entire hour - or even a half hour long. There are always pauses for various reasons; eye-strain relief for the shooter, talent breaks, breaks between takes, lighting rearrangement etc, etc. Especially those - like myself - who have worked on film-based projects where a typical film load doesn't last more than 11 mintues, the added time currently available on P2 media is plenty, if you know how to plan your shoot properly.

The point being that even (4) 8GB cards easily handles the requirements for any long-form job and at 16GB the available record time becomes a convenience factor, not a must-have to complete a job.

on march 30, i'll be shooting a documentary and a commercial in bhutan for two weeks. so no, an hour of shooting in the field doesn't cut it. sounds fine for the studio, though.

So, you'd only take one tape for a two week trip?

I think you've missed the point about a tapeless workflow; the concept is you fill up the storage, copy it off (or put in a second set of cards while the first is being copied) wipe the cards and keep shooting.

Or, if the production workflow allows use the hot-swap feature where you are constantly swapping cards in and out of the camera as they fill up and NEVER stop shooting. You certainly can't do that with any other system; no tape-based camera can hot-swap and niether can XDCAM.

For my own productions, 70% of what I shoot is location-based work; between using hot-swap and or the HOST mode to transfer off clips I've never run into a situation where I didn't have enough record time in the field. In fact, it's always been human endurance - or the lack of - or weather that has limited our time on location, not the camera and certainly not available record time. If you haven't figured this workflow out yet then you're missing out on one of the biggest benefits of the P2 workflow. Come to NAB; I'll be there and be happy to demonstrate exactly how it works. Trust me, once you get the hang of the workflow you'll never go back to anything else.

Robert, I see what you are saying about tape being an hour long medium. The thing is, with tape, spares are affordable. P2 is still a bit pricey at this point to be hauling around a lot of spares. True, you can offload to a computer of P2 store, but I think Meryem is postulating that she'll have X amount of total media storage time with her in terms of spares that are cost prohibitive to many would-be P2 users.

That's really my only knock against the P2 system. Cost of the cards. If they were less expensive, folks could buy a stack of them to carry along and not have to worry about erasing over their camera masters (and that's very scary to some folks). Some don't want to stop shooting long enough to dump the cards. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it take longer to dump and erase the card than it does to fill it while shooting HD? If that's true, your production is going to have to stop to play catch up at some point. I agree that scheduling around this can reduce or eliminate the problem.

I guess that's why the system works for some, and not for others.

-gb-

Greg - read my post above yours...

Greg - read my post above yours...

I did, right after my post. That's the nature of posting at the same time. (grin)

The points I raised are from personal knowledge of folks who tried the P2 and then left it because of things like erasing the camera masters. They simply don't have enough faith in the integrity of modern hard drives to do that. For others, juggling all those cards, erasing and re-using makes them think it's an accident waiting to happen. Again, these are things that I am not personally concerned about, just actual reports of the experiences of others.

Even though I'm shooting XDCAM, my main delivery method to a producer at this point is via a file dump to a portable hard drive. Not unlike how P2 would be delivered. And that brings up another point. There are people who feel these two main tapeless formats we have are great for closed-loop operations where the footage stays in house. It's the delivery from a freelance operator standpoint that has some avoiding both P2 and XDCAM because their clients can't or won't accept it for delivery.

-gb-

All valid points, Greg. It's the same thing early adopters of HDV went through; new codec/format, how to deliver it to clients? What this really comes down to is 2 things: pre-production planning and understanding output options for the client. It doesn't really matter what format/codec/system you're using there's always a way to deliver the final client-version in a format they prefer. It just might mean more work in the edit suite making a conversion.

As I always say, it's not about "which system is best", it's which system is best-for-you and your clients that's most important, and there just isn't any single system that can address 100% of every possible need - but you can get close.

offloading P2 efficiently requires assistance that i cannot count on being available in this situation, otherwise i could be offloading P2 and missing the shot. affirming what greg said....

robert, i'm not trying to knock P2--the fact is, i'd *rather* be able to output DVCPRO HD without any transcoding or funky workarounds. my frustration is that none of these off-in-the-not-too-distant-future solutions, even my RED camera, is available right now, when i'm taking the trip of a lifetime, an opportunity that i may never see again, so of course i want to record the absolutely best images possible. but we're talking about 3 years from now! what's master magician jim jannard gonna have cooked up in 3 years, when the specs on RED one are already in excess of what any other camera at this price point can do?

it really came down to choosing between XDCAM and HDV for this application, and i'm going with HDV, mostly because the RED purchase will eat up my available resources very soon. i can take 2 HDV cams for less than half the price of an XDCAM.

bring on the funky workarounds and transcoding!...should still have beautiful images....

it really came down to choosing between XDCAM and HDV for this application, and i'm going with HDV, mostly because the RED purchase will eat up my available resources very soon. i can take 2 HDV cams for less than half the price of an XDCAM.

And XDCAM shoots an HDV format, so the only thing XDCAM can offer over the handheld HDV cameras is longer record time, tapless workflow, access to a few lens choices and a higher bitrate of HDV. Sounds like you made the right choice for your needs.

and I guess those larger chips, better dynamics, better audio, better lenses don't count for anything, right Robert?

as one person has commented, i actualy dont have an issue with the P2 workflow.. what i have an issue with is reliability of the drives which the p2 is offloaded to, in addition to the actual capacity of the cards themselves..

Lets face it, for most studio work, its works a treat, theres no denying that... however in some instances, where long continuous recording with no breaks, the P2 jsut doesnt do it.. not efficiently as tape anyway...

in addition the cost of the P2 cards themselves are ridiculaously high. I dont really care to hear justification for prices, however if i COULD go out and buy 10x 8gb cards and not go bankrupt, i would. Alternatives such as firestore IMO are not reliable for one off live events. I Have tried these units on numerous other cameras and ive had nothing but issues.
But that too is not the point at hand..

Ths real issue is how the HVX can be utliised by those who come from the DVX camp. The requiremetns to edit P2 are there.. the means to edit is also there. The means to deliver is now coming to the fore with DB and HD DVD. the means to archive masters onto BD and multiple HDD's has been there for a while now..

The point is.. that this entire workflow is an ENTIRE rebuild of how one prodiuces.. frm shooting through to editing to delivery and its a MAJOR change for many studios.

But thats not a problem. thats progress

When you consider that HDV only requres a PC upgrade to get the most out of it, P2 and the costs involved cannot be compared.
When you look at cost of tape vs P2, irrespective of the re-usability of the cards in question.. vs the current cost and capacity of SD media it just cannot be justified for the average studio.

Dont get me wrong, i think solid state is the way to go.. ive always looked upon it as being the next step up and noone can deny that DVCPRoHD is probably the best format available, however that in itself doesnt change the fact that for me to get the most out of this camera, i need to wait at least 2 years for the capacity to catch up with the camera...

and by then, the camera will have been superceeded, be it recording format medium, codec, or basic hardware upgrades such as CCD...

Like i said, the entire element of P2 is not an issue..
Aside the camera, the issue is about the fact that in addition to cost of P2, we have to wait to get the most out of P2 due to stupidly low capacities of the cards available...

Does Pana really beleive people are willing to buy a camera now and have it collect dust while they wait for storage to be made available in a couple of years? Or have the camera only used for certain types of work?
I want to use it for EVERYTHING.. bugger... i cant..

I for one CANT use the camera becuase of these P2 capacity issues.. I shoot ceremonies and stage shows that go for about an hour 20 minutes each sometimes longer.. and running 2/3 cameras... how many P2 cards would i need? laptop offloading time??.... u can do the math..
Its not viable cost and time wise

Sure i also do alot of studio work, but a mojority of my work requires me to focus on the shot at hand, not juggling P2 cards and transfering content to a laptop in the hope that the Lappy wont crash by the time i get home and transfer the footage to the main system and back it up onto blueray...

see where im going with this?

Give me 6x WELL PRICED (ACCORDING TO MARKET VALUE OF SD) 64gb P2 cards this year and i'll buy a camera TODAY
I'll even fork out 1500 bux for a BD burner so I can archive this footage.
I'll even fork out another grand to build another 2tb tower

But Pana cant do this with P2, so i have no choice but to look elsewhere as i need a solution quick smart...

I said once before this cameras was before its time.. and from the spec of the CCD, in addition to the current issues surrounding P2, those CCD's will be superceeded and replaced soon enough.. all the while the P2's will be trudging along trying to keep up..

The cam is incredible and what it can do for those who are accustomed to shooting film or short takes, its a wonderous piece of equipment
BUT
The public have made it clear that the CCD of the camera is barely acceptable for 720p and nigh on laughable at 1080i/p so it wouldnt surprise me if the next instalment carries a different pixel count with less weight put upon the in-cam scaling.. By then, capacity of P2 will have increased... so whats the point in buying a HVX now?

I for one have always said theres more to an image than sharpness, and the compression of DVCProHD cannot be faulted for what it is.. especially compared to the other offerings... This is what has me tossing the coin..

Again, like i said on another forum, if they were wise, they would allow the camera to shoot in its native pixel count on P2, and then allow us to convert this to HD res with appropriate software... i dont see why it cant, and it would definately take care of the P2 recording capacity issues expereinced TODAY.

i guess now with the HVX/HPX, Pana not only have P2 to worry about, but with AVCHD they also have all these newer codecs being made available

In addition to ensuring the future of the HVX/DVX type formfactor camcorder in years to come, this form factor is the bread and butter of sales, so its imperitive that it survives, else we'll be dealing with a PreDVX like market saturated by other manufacturers as it was prior to the launch of teh DVX itself.. .
Hell, im yet to have a client ask me for a price on ANY p2 camcorder.. except for this one..

I would hate to guess how many poeple have already jumped ship... for one, i know 6 who have... and thats just people i know.. not actual clients who i train and not counting supplies ive sold gear to...

Its not the camera thats putting them off, its the P2 and its lack of capacity and cost effective archivability

I just hope Pana havent spread themselves too thinly with this current transitional period from SD to HD.. because from the look of it, they have.

Theyve got so many eggs in so many different baskets now, that i think theyve started to lose focus on the fact that most of those DVX users WONT be upgrading to the HVX anytime soon.. and that is a trully sad fact because the camera itself is astonishing.

In the end, Its one thing to bring out a camera that does all this, but its another thing to ensure that it can be used by almost everyone in almost every situation

I don't get people's negative stances on P2 and Panasonic.

Panasonic is ushering in a new era of solid state recording. It expensive. Everyone buying into P2 right now is an early adopter. That comes with a price.

It is not Panasonic's job to make the whole work flow package meet people's budgets for a new camera model just because people are used to the "good ol' DVX"

Get over it, if you cannot afford the HVX and the whole P2 work flow that comes with it, then get something else. If you need long record times, get something else. Jeez, buy an A1 for $3,800 and keep on chugging.

The actual P2 card is a very complex piece of equipment whether you believe so or not, as evidence by the complete lack of third party alternatives. If someone else could come out with a P2 solution for half the cost of Panasonic's, don't you think they would have?

And please don't blame Panasonic for coming out with a business model that you cannot afford.

and I guess those larger chips, better dynamics, better audio, better lenses don't count for anything, right Robert?

Absolutely they do, but since Meryem wants to keep costs down the bang-for-the-buck quotient is best served by the handheld HDV cams.

I don't get people's negative stances on P2 and Panasonic.

Panasonic is ushering in a new era of solid state recording. It expensive. Everyone buying into P2 right now is an early adopter. That comes with a price.

Why should we pay that price. Especially when we don't know what the future will bring. People who jumped on initially are jumping off because of the lack of progress on P2 size and price.

It is not Panasonic's job to make the whole work flow package meet people's budgets for a new camera model just because people are used to the "good ol' DVX"

Get over it, if you cannot afford the HVX and the whole P2 work flow that comes with it, then get something else. If you need long record times, get something else. Jeez, buy an A1 for $3,800 and keep on chugging.

Yes, it is Panasonic's job. Who's job do you think it is? It's not mine, Meryum's or Peter's!

The actual P2 card is a very complex piece of equipment whether you believe so or not, as evidence by the complete lack of third party alternatives. If someone else could come out with a P2 solution for half the cost of Panasonic's, don't you think they would have?

Again you are stating what has been said, no third party support and prices too high for P2. Others will come in, but I doubt that it will be with P2, and that "IS" the problem. It will be with another solid state system!

And please don't blame Panasonic for coming out with a business model that you cannot afford.

P2 may well be too expensive for me, but for most it is a matter of convienience AND COST! For those with unlimited money, why not just buy a more expensive and better system?

What system do you have?

I don't get people's negative stances on P2 and Panasonic.

Panasonic is ushering in a new era of solid state recording. It expensive. Everyone buying into P2 right now is an early adopter. That comes with a price.

It is not Panasonic's job to make the whole work flow package meet people's budgets for a new camera model just because people are used to the "good ol' DVX"

Get over it, if you cannot afford the HVX and the whole P2 work flow that comes with it, then get something else. If you need long record times, get something else. Jeez, buy an A1 for $3,800 and keep on chugging.

The actual P2 card is a very complex piece of equipment whether you believe so or not, as evidence by the complete lack of third party alternatives. If someone else could come out with a P2 solution for half the cost of Panasonic's, don't you think they would have?

And please don't blame Panasonic for coming out with a business model that you cannot afford.
LOL

read the thread properly.. its not about money.. its about P2 usability TODAY

as for being "early adopters" this is an entirely different argument.. the fact is that P2 has been around now for what.. 3 years almost...a litle more? I was runnign the shop to the public back then so it would have been... about 3-4 yrs ago... Dont forget P2 was available for quite a while before DVCPRoHD was available..
Is 3 years considered early? Condsidering most camcorders dont have a lifespan for that long?

in regard to "panasonics job" comment.. youre going completely off track.. however in response i will say that it IS up to Panasonic if they want to keep this form factor a viable option..
Like i said, its a bread and butter camera.. and it keeps them in the loop with HDV offerings.. BUT it wont be there for long if something isnt done about P2

And like i said, read the thread properly because its not purely about cost..

And XDCAM shoots an HDV format, so the only thing XDCAM can offer over the handheld HDV cameras is longer record time, tapless workflow, access to a few lens choices and a higher bitrate of HDV. Sounds like you made the right choice for your needs.

That's a bit misleading, Robert. 'HDV' is a spec and has its own logo. It is only applied to cameras which meet that spec. XDCAM HD is NOT HDV. Anyone viewing footage between the two should see a clear difference in image quality.

Sorry, just trying to keep the facts straight.

-gb-

valid responses here IMO here.. but one other thing i should note, is that the camera has now been around for over a year..
Pana are making strides with AVCHD camcorders as we have already seen, theyve also made strides with the new HPX.. however the camera itself is a totally different animal to the HVX and cannot be compared..

IF... and this may well be Panas saving grace.. IF they offered to sell EMPTY P2 card shells.. with no SD cards.... the life of P2 WOULD be sustained as users can upgrade their SD's as they see fit. You need 8gb? go for it... need to break down one P2 card to create 2 4gb cards for this particualr project? Go for it...

There are MANY SD card manufacturers out there, and speed tests have shown that theyre as fast, if not faster than Panas offerings... ive seen SD cards at 166x some faster than this. And yes, ive fed 35mbps XDCamHD footage through a 2g SD card and it didnt skip a beat...
May only be 35mbps, but it works.,, and with the P2 raid0 setup, it will be even faster than that..

Give us empty P2 shells... let us worry about the SD card prices

That's a bit misleading, Robert. 'HDV' is a spec and has its own logo. It is only applied to cameras which meet that spec. XDCAM HD is NOT HDV. Anyone viewing footage between the two should see a clear difference in image quality.

Sorry, just trying to keep the facts straight.

-gb-

Agreed.. XDCam.. despite the codec being based on HDV, is NOT HDV.. its entirely different, and the differences are noticably on the outset... obvious in fact. One thing that surprised me about it was the fact that it didnt do 4:2:2 colour considering this is supposed to take over from where Digibeta left off..

Sorry but there are two misconceptions here that really need to be rectified:

Everyone buying into P2 right now is an early adopter. Wrong. P2 has been around for three years. It was introduced way back in 2004.

And XDCAM shoots an HDV formatIncorrect -- XDCAM most certainly does *not* shoot an HDV format!


Folks, let's please get back to productive discussions that actually accomplish something, such as topics about *how* to use this gear and *what* are we creating with these tools. This thread has been pretty much a borderline platform war from the get-go, and we don't do platform wars here. It's time to bring this utterly pointless debate to a screeching halt. Let's focus instead on sharing *useful* information that you can carry into your day. Thanks in advance,