I read somewhere that the HV20 was the first consumer camcorder to record in full 1920x1080 resolution.

My reaction then is that this is still a HDV camera, and HDV specifies 1440x1080 anamorphic (1.33) 16x9 aspect recording.
So am I correct in my assumption, or does the HV20 exceed the HDV specification by recording 1920x1080 to tape?

If not, and they actually meant it has a 1920x1080 sensor, then in reality the HV10 was the first consumer camcorder with a 1920x1080 sensor, allthough it still record that resolution to tape as 1440x1080 anamorphic 16x9.

I'm pretty sure it records at 1440x1080.

The big question is the HDMI / component outputs - there are currently 2 schools of thought:

1. The footage hits the sensor at 1920, is squashed to 1440, sharpened, white-balanced, etc, then re-blown-up to 1920 for HDMI

2. The footage hits the sensor at 1920 is sharpened, white-balanced, etc at 1920 then sent out to HDMI or the HDV compression (which involves 1440 squash)

Although common sense would suggest #2, tests on previous HDMI output-capable cameras suggest that it might actually do #1.

Anyone want to post a res chart test of HDV vs Component vs HDMI? Even just HDV vs Component or just HDV vs HDMI would be good...

You can host the raw files on my site and I will send you several beers for your trouble. Seriously. Email / PM me!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

I read somewhere that the HV20 was the first consumer camcorder to record in full 1920x1080 resolution.No -- that is not correct.

...the HV10 was the first consumer camcorder with a 1920x1080 sensor, allthough it still record that resolution to tape as 1440x1080 anamorphic 16x9.Yes -- that is correct.

Hope this helps,

To backup what Bruce said. I'll send some beers as well for the testers to find out what its doing via HDMI output. :D

... and related to bruce and Daymon's, a test between Component (to see if it's res is full 16:9 or 4:3 scaled up) would be great too! I would/will test this (component capture) when my HV20 arrives, but alas, no res chart to toy with.

No -- that is not correct.

Yes -- that is correct.

Hope this helps,

No, that is not correct either. The HC1 has a 1920x1440 sensor.

Hi Mikko, I'm not sure why you're quoting me, or for that matter why you're mentioning the HC1 at 1440. Rune's statement was "the HV10 was the first consumer camcorder with a 1920x1080 sensor" and yes that is correct.

Rune's statement was "the HV10 was the first consumer camcorder with a 1920x1080 sensor" and yes that is correct.

No its not. The hc1 has the same sensor as the A1 and the sensor is in fact a 1920x1440 sensor. The top and bottom are cropped off to get the 1920x1080.

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?id=80897

Mikko, the sensor is not a native 1920X1080 sensor.

Now that I look through the flyer PDF* on Canon's site, I'm not convinced that the HV20's sensor is a "true" 1920x1080 sensor either. It says that it uses the same sensor is used for still shots, and that the sensor is 3.1 megapixels. I would think that a true 1920x1080 sensor would be just under 2.1 megapixels. More marketing shenanigans, I guess.


* http://downloads.canon.com/cpr/software/video/HV20_Printer_Friendly.pdf

"capable of capturing stunning 3.1 Megapixel photos in 4:3 aspect ratio to a miniSDTM card (2.07 Megapixels at 16:9)"

"The same 2.96 Megapixel CMOS image sensor that ensures sharp, vivid HD video...."

"the HV20's image sensor results in outstanding digital photographs. It gives an impressive resolution of 1920 x 1440.."

The HV20 crops the sensor for video. It's true 1920x1080 for video but the sensor has more pixels above and below what you see for video. Below is an image that details the different still and video modes, I left off the lower resolution still modes...
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/440734290_aa541ff496_o.jpg

This image shows exactly what is being cropped...
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/440841872_e2e2378eab_b.jpg

The question I have is the large still mode is 2048 pixels across and for video there is no horizontal cropping as illustrated in the image above, so if the sensor is really 2048 pixels wide then the camera is scaling that down to 1920 for the 1920x1080 still mode as well as the video. Or if the sensor is 1920 wide then it is scaling up for the large still mode. Canon's site states the 4:3 still mode has an effective 2,760,000 pixels which equals 1920x1440 so perhaps the sensor is 1920x1440 and it scales it up for the higher resolution still mode.

Mikko, the sensor is not a native 1920X1080 sensor.

Yes it is. If you have a 1920x1440 sensor (4:3) then when you crop the top and bottom it will in all practical issues be a native 1920x1080 image. And the hv10 uses the exact same practice of cropping the cmos sensor.

So the hc1 was the first camera. Canons marketing about "first true" 1920x1080 always felt wrong.

They crop the cmos sensor because of the rolling shutter effect. If the image would utilize the complete sensor then the rolling shutter effect would be way more noticeable as you would see the top part of the image go way before the lower part. Also cropping is the easy way to get true 16:9.

So the hc1 was the first camera. Canons marketing about "first true" 1920x1080 always felt wrong.

I don't remember how they handled it, but it did seem to give a false impression about the cameras because people assumed that it meant that it recorded that resolution.

...sure seems to be using a 1920 X 1080p cropping of the sensor and from my understanding that full data matrix is available for the HDMI out, but IMHO pixels smixels the image just looks great. Am looking forward to seeing someone's keying results from HDMI in the future. Could be a great addition for color correction in post too for certain looks, but I'm very happy with the HDV myself and tape is easy to handle and store. Don't think too many ( any? ) camera/lens combinations acheive their theoretical sensor resolutions in real world optical lines of resolution, but the HV20 manages to get enough in for outstanding color rich results. I can't wait to project some footage at 1080P on a 20 foot screen and see how it holds up, but looks top notch at 720P on a 90" screen from my Sanyo projector.
Regards, Alan

Yes it is. If you have a 1920x1440 sensor (4:3) then when you crop the top and bottom it will in all practical issues be a native 1920x1080 image. And the hv10 uses the exact same practice of cropping the cmos sensor.



In my book if is not strictly 1920X1080, it's not native. But whatever, I can't get too excited about this. Bottom line as always is picture quality. If they can achieve the best picture quality with 1 pixel or 1 trillion, it's fine by me.

Hello all,
If the imager is "native" 4:3 ratio at that 1920x1440 resolution, would it be possible to get THAT full image out of the camera via hdmi? I have a Lomo zoom lens from a Konvas 35mm movie camera that has a rear anamorphic adapter. I would love to be able to use this lens with a DOF adapter like the SGpro or Brevis. If that were possible.....ah, heaven.

Also, would 30p be possible using the HDMI?

I know the guys at reel-stream have the andomeda setup for the dvx100, and are currently working on a similar mod for the HVX200, but I'd prefer a cheap 4:3 "uncompressed" image that could be (presumably) used for amazing 2:35 ratio shots.

Are any of these things possible? The Red camera is just way too expensive, and modifying an HVX200 seems a bit scary (especially at the rate this technology is advancing!). Hell, by the time the modified HVX arrives, an HV30 could come out that is even MORE amazing.

According to the HV10 specs, it records directly in 1920 x 1080 when the HD/DV wide mode is selected. The 1440 x 1080 format is in normal mode.

- Tape Recording: DV (normal) mode: Approx 1.55 megapixels (1440 x 1080), HD/DV (wide) mode: Approx 2.07 megapixels (1920 x 1080)

Those are the sensor pixel numbers, used sensor pixels when recording HDV and DV 16x9 is 1920x1080, and for standard DV it uses 1440x1080 pixels, but records it to tape as 1440x1080 and 720x576 (PAL).

480 pixels is not going to make THAT big of an impact on screen, especially since you're still get 1080 horizontal pixels.

I stand corrected, the HV10 does record in 1440 x 1080 as explained by a note in the specs:

- The CMOS sensor in the HV10 is a 1/2.7 inch 2.96 megapixel sensor with true 1920 x 1080 HD sensing capability for 1080i HDV format video**.

**1080i HDV format video is an industry ratified MPEG2 video encoding standard with an interlaced resolution of 1440 horizontal anamorphic pixels by 1080 vertical pixels.

In my book if is not strictly 1920X1080, it's not native.Whoops, then there goes the entire HDCAM product line, the single most widely accepted format for HD broadcast masters in the world today.

According to the HV10 specs, it records directly in 1920 x 1080 when the HD/DV wide mode is selected. The 1440 x 1080 format is in normal mode.

- Tape Recording: DV (normal) mode: Approx 1.55 megapixels (1440 x 1080), HD/DV (wide) mode: Approx 2.07 megapixels (1920 x 1080)

isn't that for STILLs to miniSD card?
All HDV tape recordings are 1440x1080 by spec. Non-tape formats (some HDD recorders) go to 1920.