I've done a bit of searching and haven't turned anything up, so I thought I'd check with the all-knowing crew at DVinfo. I'm guessing probably not, and I guess this brings into focus (pardon the expression) Panny's market strategy -- if you want to do long form work, you'll need to invest in enough P2Cards to get you through a day's worth of shooting till you get back to homebase and can go directly to HDD. I'm sure someone at the company was, like, the P2Store allows people to shoot with fewer P2Cards, and we want to be selling P2Cards! Maybe that is being overly cynical, or not. So if I do about 7 hours of shooting in a day, I'll need to invest in about 10 P2 cards (assuming I'm shooting 720p24n) at a cost of about $9000. I don't understand how Panasonic can make decisions like this that limit the consumer's choices when there as so many (Red) choices out there that are very compelling at this price point. If someone can explain the thinking to me that would be awesome.

Peter

Hi Peter,

No, there is no larger P2 Store in the catalog or that is being planned - at least that we were told about. There are too many alternatives now that make more sense.

The P2 Store came about mainly because at the beginning of the P2 systems' release Panny knew that the relatively small size of the 2GB and 4GB cards weren't going to be enough to accomodate most typical work especially on the 2-slot HVX, hence they devised an in-field method for offloading cards especially for hot-swap operations.

However now that 16GB cards have arrived the 60GB drive would quickly become full after only a handful of transfers. The current iteration of the P2 Store is logically not going to continue in the product line; how much longer it will be produced is anybody's guess - there was no mention of it being discontinued but at the same time there is no direct replacement.

Instead, the recommended workflow especially for on-location work is to use either:

A) HOST mode to x-fer directly from camera to external FW or USB drive;
B) The P2 Drive connected to a laptop via FW 800 (the older version used FW400) and x-fer up to 5 cards simlutaneously either to an internal drive or, an external FW drive. This method would give you the ability to view the x-ferd clips either in the NLE or using HD Log/P2 Log Pro;
C) The HPM100 P2 Mobile Deck which as 6 P2 slots, can do story edits, cross/up/down-convert and act as the bridge for AVC-Intra and x-fer off to an external FW/USB drive or use the HD-SDI to go to the 1400 deck or even to a tape drive;
D) The new P2 Gear which again gives the ability to view the clips just as the camera can and send it to and external FW/USB drive or out HD-SDI.
E) Use a laptop with a PCMCIA slot and connect directly to either an internal or external drive.

You'll notice that the common connectivity in all these methods uses an external FW/USB drive. One of the reasons for this is that it enables the user to select off-the-shelf drives that either they already have or can choose on their own. The P2 Store by contrast, has a fixed internal drive that cannot be removed or swapped out if it becomes too small for the application (which is now becoming the case with the larger cards) or if the user wanted to use their own drives.

As an example, I most always use HOST mode when doing location work. I take with me a HDD enclosure purchased from OWC which allows me to choose the drive size and manufacturer of my liking. It's the 2.5" laptop form-factor and the connectivity is FW800. I also take an inverter that plugs into the cigarette lighter in the car along with two 50' foot extension cables which gives me both camera and external drive power.

Obviously the above workflow is just one of many possible options, but with all these new devices and methods for offloading clips it brings about a wealth of options and flexibility not ever seen before in pro video.

One last note about HOST mode: currently as most know there is a 15-partition limit per-drive when doing x-fers. This is changing, I can't say when or to what amount but just know that this limit is being raised to a point that will make an all-day shoot require only a single external drive, not 2 or 3.

Jeez, I think I just gave another NAB presentation - major De-ja-vu! (laughs)

Just as a possibilty, for less than the cost of a P2 Store, here's a laptop with a 160 GB HDD, and it has a PCMCIA slot:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834117405

Just the first one I found after a basic search. A small laptop with a big hard drive can be an indispensible -- and inexpensive -- production/location tool. And, you can use it as a computer besides.

Just as a possibilty, for less than the cost of a P2 Store, here's a laptop with a 160 GB HDD, and it has a PCMCIA slot:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834117405

Just the first one I found after a basic search. A small laptop with a big hard drive can be an indispensible -- and inexpensive -- production/location tool. And, you can use it as a computer besides.

That's a great price for a VAIO! You know you can count on that hardware to stand up under normal wear & tear.

Peter...

As of right now the options include:

-- 8-gig cards
-- 16-gig cards
-- 60-gig P2 Store
-- P2 Store or other reader to a MacBook Pro and a mirrored RAID
-- PC laptop to a mirrored RAID
-- Firestore FS-100

In the near future:

-- 32-gig cards (makes the P2 Store nearly pointless except as a card reader for Macs)
-- Other larger and less-costly cards from 3rd parties
-- Cineporter (???)

From these you'll have to figure out what might work best in your situation.

Iditarod shooters carried 20 8-gig P2 cards, swapping half of them back and forth with a base camp. No P2 Store.

As the quality goes up so does the associated costs. Less compression and higher resolution means more data needs to be recorded and more space taken up by whatever media you're using. And that means changing the way we work.

A helpful tip: Unlearn habits developed when shooting tape such as rolling while composing and focusing (that's one of my own bad habits) and start shooting as though you're shooting film.

Try to be more discriminating when getting coverage. That's a tough one when working on reality situations.

Take advantage of the HVX's record-ahead feature. Don't roll in anticipation of something if you can use the record-ahead to actually capture it just before it happens.

At 1080p the cost of storage on a mirrored SATA raid is about 80 cents per minute. Aside from my own field capacity of 90 minutes of P2 cards and P2 Store space, I have to consider what it's costing me in real dollars per minute of shooting. For me, the days of $5 for an hour of recording media is gone.

Your points regarding consumer choice are well taken Robert and thanks for the link to the Vaio David. Ever since it's inception I have been a big fan of the P2Store because it was an really elegant solution for field recording -- a battery powered, ruggedized P2Card reader and HDD. I really think Panny did a great job with this product and mine has worked flawlessly as long as I've had it. It's simplicity and ruggedness are invaluable on location documentary work and truthfully I wouldn't have been able to realistically use the HVX were it not for the P2Store.

A laptop is not a viable alternative due to its size, relative breakability, and the worklow needed for transferring the contents of the card -- this was the great thing about the P2Store -- you just plug the card in and hit Start.

Likewise, having a portable Hard drive with me when I'm a 20 minute hike from my car, or when I'm running and gunning is also not feasible -- you need a power supply and most importantly, putting the camera in host mode requires that you stop recording!!!

When I'm shooting, I am rotating four cards, and usually have one copying to a P2Store as I follow my subject. The only viable recording workflow in this situation is to have a P2Store or enough cards to shoot all day without offloading.

It's a shame Panny won't come out with at least one more iteration of the P2Store that increases the capacity. Certainly when we get to 64Gb and even 32GB cards the P2Store will become irrelevant, but 32GB cards are probablyc close to a year away (though I know they are announced for 2007) and 64Gb's some time after that.

So there you go. I honestly don't see any workflow that works for the documentary filmmaker who is working singly or with a sound person (despite your suggestions Robert, which I do truly appreciate and think make perfect sense for someone in a different situation than my own). If anyone has suggestions I am of course all ears, as I really do love this camera. For now, I will continue shooting with about 4 P2 cards and two P2Stores and that will probably get me through till a new solution arrives.

Peter

Hey Dean,

Your points about shooting style are spot on -- you really do have to shoot as if you're rolling film, and you know really we're all so lucky when you think about shooting film and changing mags etc. The great thing about the HVX is I find myself rolling a lot less not only because I'm thinking about storage space, but also because I know that, as soon as my shot is there, I can hit record and will be recording instantly, and not waiting the 4 secs for my tape to spool up -- there are a lot of shots I would've missed on my current project had I been shooting tape. That being said, in documentary work, when you are shooting verite (and not just getting broll) you have to roll and roll and roll because you're waiting for the right thing to be said in a certain situation, so here the more selective method is not as useful. I think I basically answered my question in my previous post -- that I'll continue using my current workflow until another option is available, which may mean a transition to the HPX500 or, depending on how things with Red go (got my reservation) to that camera.

Peter

I'd have to agree that for certain situations, a P2 store just makes sense. Often I'm running around factory floors for a day where lugging a laptop just doesnt make sense. The P2 store runs off the same bats as my HVX and simply works, no fuss.

I asked a panny rep about a larger P2 store in the near future and she looked at me like I was speaking chinese. She told me that she didn't know about a higher capacity version coming out. Although this is the same Panny Rep who claimed that she'd never heard of the Red and then when I pressed her on it said, "oh you're talking about those camera guys in the other hall". Maybe I need to make this little story it's own thread.

Thanks Ethan. From your info and Robert's, sounds like another P2Store is probably not in the cards. What a funny anecdote about the Panny rep. "Those camera guys"...if those guys are the "camera guys," then what are Panasonic reps selling?

Peter

What a funny anecdote about the Panny rep. "Those camera guys"...if those guys are the "camera guys," then what are Panasonic reps selling?

Peter

This was my first NAB so I'm not sure if all the flying-fur was typical, but many of the sales reps and even ourselves, the consultants, were put on the defensive almost everyday by having to dispell myths from other manufacturers. By the end of the week we were all pretty sick and tired of the hecklers and nay-sayers, so that particular comment was probaby said mostly out of frustration and emtional drain more than anything else.

This was my first NAB so I'm not sure if all the flying-fur was typical, but many of the sales reps and even ourselves, the consultants, were put on the defensive almost everyday by having to dispell myths from other manufacturers. By the end of the week we were all pretty sick and tired of the hecklers and nay-sayers, so that particular comment was probaby said mostly out of frustration and emtional drain more than anything else.

True that Robert! But it was especially pleasing to be able to tell all the naysayers as a consultant that we were making a living every day with P2 technology. It's hard to fight that.

It's absolutlely true that to make use of the fantastic codec and technology you have to come up with a change in your personal workflow and be open to it.

I asked a panny rep about a larger P2 store in the near future and she looked at me like I was speaking chinese. She told me that she didn't know about a higher capacity version coming out. Although this is the same Panny Rep who claimed that she'd never heard of the Red and then when I pressed her on it said, "oh you're talking about those camera guys in the other hall". Maybe I need to make this little story it's own thread.

Of course the rep had heard of Red. It's just tradeshow policy not to let the competitor's product enter the conversation. Dig?

That's not to say it's not annoying as all hell, though. I've had a hard time getting straight answers out of many reps over the years because stuff like this.

The worst however is when the reps just get combative. If I ask the rep how/why their system is better than the other guy's (and I'll ask the question gently, not confrontationally), it's not because I'm trying to bust their chops, it's because I want them to tell me something I don't already know about their product; some angle I might not have considered. But more than once I have just gotten attitude, as if the rep thought I meant ill will. There's one manufacturers booth I won't visit anymore because of this, actually.

That's probably where the philosophy behind hiring the consultants came into play. We don't work for Panasonic, but we work with the product. Other guys were there to SELL the product; we were there to explain the workflows we use in the real world. More than one person came up and said "sell me!" and was taken aback when I told them I wasn't there to sell them (again, that's what the sales guys were for), but I would tell them everything I know.

I can't imagine that retrofitting a P2 Store with a larger capacity HD should all that difficult. If panasonic doesn't come up with a larger capacity version, perhaps some third party can offer a retrofit service.

As mentioned above, the P2 Store has really become out-moded now with the other options currently available. Because media sizes/types/costs are varying at an exponential rate I don't think it would be wise to purchase a unit that is designed around only one type of storage or, size limit. The other devices now available free you from those limitations giving you more flexibility and cost scalability.

I took a look at the specifications for the new P2 Gear. I think it will definitely serve as a much better viable alternative to carrying a laptop around. Just bring a couple of 2.5" 160GB (the biggest capacity the last time I checked) hard-disks with their holder, connect the P2 Gear in and just transfer the information across.

Until that becomes available, P2Store is probably the best method to copy data across - even with 16GB P2 card, you can hold 4 x 16GB + 2 x 16GB inside the camera for a total of 6 x 16GB worth of data. Assuming recording at 720p, 16GB means about 30 minutes of video. 6 of that = 3 hours - that's plenty of video to edit ....

TS

I have to say, I don't think the P2 Store's usefulness has been outlived, and I think Panasonic has a big, gapping hole in their P2 workflow if they're not going to expand the P2 Store's capacity beyond a measily 60 gigs.

The P2 Store was a perfect solution because it was very light weight, very easy to use, and relatively affordable. I often shoot on my own, wearing a lot of hats, and I could easily manage the P2 Store transfers myself. I could also stuff the little thing in a pocket on my camera bag, and powered it with my HVX200's spare battery. Easy solution!!

No other alternative compares:

** Carry a laptop? It's bigger and significantly heavier than a P2 Store, and it's clumsier to set up and operate in the field.

** Bigger P2 cards? Even if I had 32 GB cards, a full day of shooting could easily burn through that capacity (especially in 1080), forcing me to offload the data at multiple points. I could always buy a ton of P2 cards, but that's an expensive proposition. The fact that Panasonic had to give *20* 8 gb cards to each of those Iditarod shooters (retail cost at the time? $22,000 per camera!!!) is incredibly glaring, and highlights the fact that Panasonic didn't have a reasonable data storage solution to offer.

** Plug a hard drive into the camera to do an offload? Well, that means you can't use the camera for while. Also, you need to make sure you have a hard drive enclose that's battery powered (if you're in the field), and very very few are.

** Get a P2 Gear? It's $4000, so it's pretty expensive (even with street price discounts). AND I heard a Panasonic rep at NAB say that it doesn't offer bus power to hard drives, so you'll also have to figure out how to power your drives if you're out in the field. How could they not offer bus power? That's just a ridiculous ommision!

NONE of these options are as simple, convenient or affordable as simply having a card reader with a hard drive built in!! Really: a 2-card reader with a 200 GB drive would be just perfect (and that storage capacity is available now at 7200 rpm...and it's only going to get bigger over time.)

Given the available alternatives for the immediate future, P2 Gear is too expensive anyway. I think the best thing is to purchase another P2Store if I have to be away from any computer for weeks on end. 2 P2Store = 4 hours of video data (at 720p) - more than enough.

Helmut,
I agree with every word you have posted here about P2 store.

Couldn't agree more Helmut. If you do a search on this forum you will find posts I have made months ago that are similar to yours. I think Panny figured they were giving a "free lunch" by selling the P2Store (letting us "get away" with fewer cards). I think they expect longform filmmakers or documentarians to either shell out for enough P2 cards to last a day, which, as you note, can get extremely expensive, or to somehow lug around a laptop and external HDD's, which is obviously ridiculous. I guess in a year or two these points will be moot, as P2 capacities will have increased and the prices will, hopefully, have come down. In the meantime, of course, there competitors coming out like Red and even the new Sony XDCam EX, which will hopefully give Panny a wake-up call that they need to come out with a better solution (namely, just putting a larger HDD in the P2Store) for filmmakers such as us.

Peter

I don't even have a camera yet, but I can see a huge advantage to a device like the P2 Store.. as I said before, it is an elegant simple design and, from what I'm reading - it works... Has anyone tried hotrodding one with a bigger drive?

I have settled on the reality of using a laptop and external drives - I'd need to do that anyway, but it would be nice if I didn't have to worry about it till I'm sipping martinis at the end of the second day of shooting..

I may buy one (or two) P2 Stores anyway instead of more 16g cards (which aren't readily available) ..

But 160g sure would be nice Ms Panasonic... Sounds like a seller's market to me...

I am happy to see here the list of reasons why I decided not buying the HVX. Ok, my cam is HDV with all the issues, but on the end of the day it gives quite acceptable results with no sweat every day and without my bank account being broken.
If you are on the move all the HVX related hassle is just something you would not do for long.

A humble note: XDCAM EX will be out later this year. If the rumors are correct, the cards will be way cheaper vs P2. So one can buy the amount that will serve a whole day shooting, leave the laptop and HDD-s at home (go to gym instead if muscles needed), no additional high $$$$ gadgets just for ingesting, etc.
And the format is accepted by the honchos of Discovery HD and National Geo... I am sold for it.

Zsolt: I too chose to not buy the HVX last year and opted for the Canon XL H1. I currently have the H1 body, three lenses and an A1 as a backup camera..

My main reason for not liking the HVX was ergonomics.. I handhold most of the time and a well set-up H1 is a nice camera on a long day... I became an HDV convert over the year, producing many short documentaries for non-profits and one 30 minute that was broadcast last week on public television affiliates.. I like the simplicity of HDV, and the GOP thing was never a problem - in fact, I've never had a dropout - excellent camera, I can't say enough good things about it...

So why am I buying an HPX500? I am currently funded by a client/backer (who will remain nameless) who has a prejudice against HDV.. He's in the "industry" and, unfortunately, believes what he reads instead of what he sees.. This is true of many industry types..

In my case I don't like the Sonys because, to allow space for the disk drive, they've created an ungainly sideways brick and a butt-ugly camera - and it's 1/2"...

The Panasonic is 2/3", user-friendly in design (it could be better, the shoulder mount center-of-gravity could easily be lowered on a camera without a drive system) and opens the door to solid-state tapeless workflow options.. Sure, right now it's kinda a pain-in-the-ass - but soon it will be cheaper and easier to work with those cards..

I mean, think about it, who uses film in still cameras or tape in audio recorders anymore? It's all cards. I'm betting that that's the way video will go too...

Probably won't be my last camera though...

I was thinking about this P2Store issue tonight, in Bangkok (currently on an around the world shoot where we burn P2 cards to DVD's and Fedex to the editor, in addition to having mirrors of the data on two G-Raids in separate Pelican cases). The one advantage I can see to smaller P2Stores is that all your eggs aren't in one basket. Truthfully, even if there were 200GB P2Stores available, I might consider just getting two smaller ones (maybe let's say two 100Gb models). So, with the current situation, I think Panny should just lower the price on the 60GB model -- 1600 seems a little ridiculous now that the P2Store's been out for so long.

Peter

** Get a P2 Gear? It's $4000, so it's pretty expensive (even with street price discounts). AND I heard a Panasonic rep at NAB say that it doesn't offer bus power to hard drives, so you'll also have to figure out how to power your drives if you're out in the field. How could they not offer bus power? That's just a ridiculous ommision!


It is not an omission. The USB port does supply power for a little drive. And with verify on, it seems to take about 10 minutes to offload a 8 GB card. Pretty nifty device. It will also let you rename the folders, so that the 23 partitions don't all show up as NO NAME on the Mac Desktop, you can go in and rename them to something more useable. And yes while it is $3995, list price, it does do a long laundry list of things including the comforting ability to review your footage before offload, making sublclips of the big clip, and copying clips to another card. This last feature is more interesting for the news guys, but it might have its application elsewhere.

All in all the P2 Gear is a very nice alternative in August.

The P2 Store has its challenges is getting bigger, in that the drive has to go through a testing ground that most drives fail in. This is the problem. The larger drives have not passed the test. It isn't that we aren't looking, just not having success, yet.

Best,

Jan

The other thing the P2 Gear will allow is that unlike the P2 Store which has a fixed, non-user replaceable drive the Gear will allow you to use off-the-shelf USB or FW drives to suit your needs. Rather than plunking down the money for a single P2 Store you could instead use that same amount of money and buy a handful of external drives - either the plug-n-play type, USBTG, or the enclosures that allow for easy drive removal/swap. All this without the need for a laptop or any other intermediary device.

From my perspective, the P2 Gear in concert with your own selection of drives completely eclipses what the P2 Store is capable of and provides for more versatility and options than you'd ever have otherwise.

It is not an omission. The USB port does supply power for a little drive. And with verify on, it seems to take about 10 minutes to offload a 8 GB card. Pretty nifty device....



Hi Jan,

Thanks for pointing out that the P2 Gear DOES provide bus power on the USB port. I didn't want to spread false info--so my apologies!--but I did hear a Panasonic rep say there was no bus power in a FreshHDV.com interview (http://www.freshdv.com/2007/04/nab-video-panasonic-p2-updates.html). But I'm glad that's not the case (although having Firewire bus power would have been preferable to USB, in my humble opinion!).

So with bus power, the P2 Gear obviously has more flexibility in the field, but it still costs $4K (not including street discounts), and has a more clumsy form factor for data transfer jobs (because you need to have a separate hard drive and a cable, which can be more tricky to set up in the field, not to mention the fact that it's harder to keep them together, to not forget them at home, etc. etc.)

I'm a big believer in simple, streamlined solutions, and while the P2 Gear can do a lot of things, most of them are things I don't need. I don't need to review footage in the field, because I'm busy shooting. I don't need to rename folders, etc. etc. Besides the air that I breath, all I really need is a big data bank to store my footage as I shoot throughout the day, and the P2 Store provides that.

One thing I can't understand is why the drives in the P2 Store are so hard to come by. You guys are obviously trusting people to provide their own hard drives for storage when using the P2 Gear, so if those generic hard drives are good enough for the P2 Gear, then why is it so hard to find drives that can work with the P2 Store? I guess I don't understand what kind of special tests the P2 Store drives can pass, that most others cannot. Honestly, the P2 Store will stop copying if it's moved much, especially vertically. So it's not like it's a high performance mechanism that can do a data copy in any condition. Basically, you have to just let it sit there undisturbed for it to do its job, and it seems like *any* hard drive can just sit there while doing a file copy.

Anyway, I don't mean to harp on this, so I won't keep doing so! I just hope that Panasonic keeps improving the P2 Store. A lot of videographers are increasingly working alone these days, or in very small crews, and the Store is currently the simplest and most affordable way to get data off your P2 cards when you're on the go. Thanks!

Well I can certainly vouch for the effectiveness of a P2 Store. I used it aboard a tour bus and all day long on a fishing boat without any problems.

I like the portability and that it's totally self-contained. Putting it into a Portabrace case makes it a very nice unit that's well-suited to run-and-gun work. And it's very efficient with battery power.

Although larger P2 cards will eventually make this unit superfluous, it's still valid as a card reader and as additional capacity.

Aside from the hard drive not being upgraded my only other wish is a Firewire interface in addition to USB. But all things considered, it's a nice little unit that's served well so far.

Helmut,
you know I like very much the P2 store but after reading the last post by Robert Lane I have checked some of his P2 gear suggestions.
I'v seen that you can have a P2 gear plus, for example, a pair of very light and small 120g hard drives (160 euros each) for a total amount of circa 4500 euros. 240g are 8 hours of video at 720pN. To have the same amount of space you should have four P2 stores with you (more than 6.000 euros in Europe).
I'm starting to become conviced that P2 gear could be the best choice.

P.S. Thank you Robert Lane for your precious help.

Thanks Jan for being so candid about the hold-up on a larger P2Store -- very helpful (and a bit of a relief) to have more insight into Panny's motives. Is it possible to give us more info on what sort of tests or specs the HDD's have to pass, and in what ways the larger drives are not doing that?

In any case, I think there is certainly a lot of demand for a larger P2Store, so hopefully that is encouragement to keep trying for a larger capacity. While the P2Gear seems like a great product, it really doesn't compare to the P2Store in terms of practicality and ease of use for a documentary situation with a single shooter or any other single-person crew. I know that when I'm shooting, the P2Store's elegance is essential. I woudln't have the time nor would it work logistically to have a P2Gear with a cable running to an external drive. So I sincerely hope Panny keeps making the Store, and comes out with a larger one one of these days. I'm copying over today's footage from my P2Store to two G-Raid's now, and have to say it's a great product -- hasn't failed me yet (knock wood), and it has seen A LOT of use. Thanks again Jan for letting us know what's going on with the P2 Store.

Peter