I too do not believe that drives are the bottleneck. Modern drives are large and fast but seek times have not improved as much so a fragmented drive will slow down considerably. I think the key is to think out where the data is coming from and going to and arrange your files to minimize the seek operations. Using uncompressed files with resulting high data rates will change the picture a lot and RAID system will likely help in this circumstance but only if the CPU can manage the rate too. USing a RAID makes organising a little easier, just load everything to the one big hard drive. I don't think there is a performance gain in real life and an exposure to failure that is unneccessary.

Ron Evans

I would assume in rendering you are writing not reading. Fast drives help in reads, but do not offer much performance mileage in writes.

For a video source the render first reads the source information from hard drive into RAM, processes it as requested ( filters etc ) and renders to the output format then writes file to hard drive. The processing may also involve writes and reads to and from the temp and/or swap files where these are located on some hard drive. So what appears to be a render from the timeline may not be that straight forward. The more RAM the less swap file use etc. Of course if all this information is on one drive then all the reads, writes swap file, temp file seeks , reads and writes will be from this drive. I just checked my drives with the Canopus Raptest and none of them is less than 50MBs reads or writes, that is almost 15 times more than is needed for a single DV/HDV stream. In my mind software design and CPU performance are much bigger issues than performance of modern hard drives.

Ron Evans

Well I have searched and searched the internet and have found that to do a true hardware RAID-0 one would need to spend more than $300.00 to get a card for it. That is more than what my budget will allow for at this time.

So with Windows XP Home, how does one setup a RAID-0? I have seen articles about Windows XP Pro but nothing about Windows XP Home.

Is there a software that one can buy that will make it possible? Why have the ability to create a RAID-0 in the bios like what my system has if Windows XP Home can't see it as one drive instead of two?

I have seen a refference to a hack method from Tom's hardware but I do not want to use such a method. Creates future problems to do so.

Anyone have any answers or is RAID something that Windows XP Home users can only daydream about?

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

"So with Windows XP Home, how does one setup a RAID-0?"

Don't even dream about that one. A software RAID uses CPU cycles. The CPU is always the limiting factor in rendering so anything that adds to it's work is bad. This is why I don't recommend RAID systems for most people. Without the proper hardware and setup, they can actually decrease performance.

"So with Windows XP Home, how does one setup a RAID-0?"

Don't even dream about that one. A software RAID uses CPU cycles. The CPU is always the limiting factor in rendering so anything that adds to it's work is bad. This is why I don't recommend RAID systems for most people. Without the proper hardware and setup, they can actually decrease performance.

Does a motherboard with the Intel ICH8R have a true hardware raid? My current motherboard does not have the Intel ICH8R.

If not then I will settle for raid-none for a while. :(

Note: The reason why I am now asking about RAID is a little bit OT with this thread in that whether or not RAID-0 helps with rendering it does help with other things NLE in various ways.

Maybe we need a RAID book for Vegas? What works and what does not work? Tips on how to setup RAID and even a system to best work with Vegas? Not just the highest price stuff either.

Simply saying that one should have a properly configured system for Vegas is one thing but what one needs is some details and even in depth information about what a properly configured system consists of.

What we don't need is posts about how l-o-n-g it takes for Vegas to render because systems are not configured properly or because of editing errors and so on.

My goal is to make my system as productive as possible and to have maximum efficiency in editing. Vegas itself is a huge help in this but even Vegas can be limited with a poorly configured system and/or poor editing habits.

A more productive system leads to much reduced stress which is another one of my goals.

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

Optimizing systems needs some effort and planning and VideoGuys http://www.videoguys.com/WinXP.html is a good starting point for the sorts of things you may need to do to your system. For my editing system, first drive " C " WinXP Home seperate hard drive stores programs and OS only, drive 2 " D " Temp drive for editing apps temp files and rendered files, image for OS hard drive backup and nothing else, three drives ( E,F,G)for video files storage, two external USB drives for backups as needed. Most of my projects are multi camera shoots and the camera files get captured to seperate drives. Most services not needed are turned off, no firewall or virus checking etc even CD/DVD auto seek is turned off. Keep temp drive defraged and normally clean off video drives after project so that captures are usually contiguous files.

Ron Evans

Ron said pretty much everything you need to know in the simplest way possible. Hard drive speed used to be a serious issue, but the incredible data density is effectively giving us RAID performance on a single disk. If you double the data density, twice as much data passes by the heads for every rotation of the disk. This is, in effect, the same as making two drives read/write the same file in a RAID. With up to 250GB on a single platter, drives are more than ten times as dense as they were several years ago but the heads still move the same speed.

I did my first video editing on a 200MHz machine with an 8Gig multi-platter drive. The data rate of HDV is similar to what I was using on that same system. On the one hand, hard drives transfer almost ten times as much data per second. Unfortunately, the access time is exactly the same as it was in 1997 with my 7200rpm SCSI drive.

I'm not saying that a RAID is bad or that you are stupid to want to use one, but rather that it adds complexity and doesn't solve the basic problem of hard drives or even have a significant impact on render times. With long GOP compression in HDV, the processor is what is getting slammed during a render. A good hard drive system is definitely a great idea, but it is my opinion that simplicity is more important than eeking out a tiny bit of performance. Complexity is the breeding ground of problems that are difficult to diagnose.

I know it has been said before, but other than a RAID there are steps you can take that keep things simple yet have a real impact on your hard drives:

Try to keep them defragmented. Fragmented files will bring out the seek-time weakness in all hard drives.

Separate your media amongst different drives. Drives are very good at doing one thing at a time but start to choke if everything is all on one drive. Have separate system, source video, and render drives.

Don't completely fill your drives. Hard drives read/write from the outside towards the inner tracks. The inner tracks are slower than the outer tracks due to circles of smaller diameter having a smaller circumference. Also, a full drive will inevitably have more fragmentation than an empty drive. I've noticed on benchmarks that drives really fall off in speed past about 80% full.

There is no substitue for processing power. The CPU is the workhorse and it will be the bottleneck as long as you don't have a shortcoming in your RAM or hard drive. It's time to stop using that 8Gig hard drive then upgrade to 2Gig of RAM.

Here is something that isn't often mentioned about Vegas render times and I have no answer at all if it would be effective:

Do people have any significant performance improvements using a networked second machine to help render? With gigabit ethernet and a couple of multi-core machines, it seems like today's computers could really tackle the job of being a small render farm for Vegas. I've never seen it done.

I cannot back this up, but I'm sure I've read on this forum or somewhere that networked rendering is a real disappointment with Vegas and does not speed rendering times as one would hope.

I guess that's why it isn't being done. Has anyone tried it on Vegas 7 with two fast machines over gigabit?

How about using the cineform intermediate codec? Has anyone done a test on Vegas 7 comparing render times with .m2t files and cineform .avi files?

The viability/value in network rendering is entirely project-dependent. If you've got a short project, network rendering likely won't save you much time. If you have feature length/long form, and are outputting to any intraframe format, then network rendering is a huge timesaver. If your project has heavy compositing, network rendering is a big timesaver.
We only use it for final masters, but there are folks using it for everything they do.

Could someone explain what "intraframe" formats are? Does network rendering work if you're going to convert to MPEG2 for DVD?

Thanks