It has special expansion slot that for now has no aditional boards as I can see on their site. But they are talking about PCIe addon card. Seth has already give as a link for it. NO miniPCI and it has ATX for power. LS-371 has simple 8-12V jack.

I think realtime encoding is the best way to do it. If we cut data rate to let's say a half, then we'll have no problem recording it and also we won't need an ultra fast mini computer.

You mean ultra fast storage. You have to have fast computer to do relatime ncoding....

I can record 1920x800@24fps to disk in RAW Bayer, but the problem is getting to full 2k.

Ah, ok, then you can use two disks in a software raid-0 configuration. No need to spend cash on an raid card (the cheap ones are done in software (in the driver) anyway).

Or look for a 10000 or 15000 rpm SATA disk, which may be able to handle it. The SATA bus is fast enough (3 Gbit/sec).

You may also check the new modern serial attached scsi "SAS" disks. They are used in servers and are a more expensive. But they are incredibly fast because they are 10000 rpm (some 15000 rpm), in a small 2.5" form factor (which increases the bit density and thus speed), and hot swappable. But I think you will need a special extender card or SAS bus on the motherboard.

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/sas-and-sata/

I dont quite understand this but as I can see from the bottom of this article, you just hook up SAS disk to your existing SATA controller and your inn.
Has anybody try that?

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/sas-and-sata/

I dont quite understand this but as I can see from the bottom of this article, you just hook up SAS disk to your existing SATA controller and your inn.
Has anybody try that?

That only works in one direction. You can attach both SAS and SATA devices on a SAS bus. Bot not SAS disks on a SATA bus. See the wikipedia article.

http://www.cs-electronics.com/sas-adapters.htm
Yes, I can see now.

MacMini, has a intel AHCI SATA II controller. I am not sure if it is possible to run two disks on this port using SATA2->eSATA cable connected to a eSATA disk array.

The MacMini also has a AirPort Extreme that is connected to a 1x PCI Express. Probably through a "PCI Express Mini Card" connector.

I couldn't find a Mini Card to PCI Express extender, but it may allow connection with a capture card or firewire 800.

Guys, look at Wearable Computer System for HD Capture ( http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=99632)

Looks very good. I left him a post in his thread to see if he can come and take a look at our project.

By the way, I've got a problem.

The third week of testing is almost over. I asked Micron for this extra week because I was hoping to have both the Micron and the Omnivision sensors to test them together, but the Omnivision board hasn't come yet.

If I don't return the Micron board this week, I have to keep it. That's about $1300 taxes included that I've already paid but of course I get my money back if I return it.

Should I keep it? Should I buy the Elphel 353? That's about a half of the price, the same sensor and it already has less data rate that's our main problem now.

Does this device help?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812232002&CMP=EMC-IGNEFL072407&ATT=N82E16812232002

Jose has USB camera with USB port on steroids. So this is probably no go. LS-371 has 2xSATA1 and IDE ports onboard and they probably have enough speed to do what we want. Problem are single 2.5" SATA disks that are portable but have not enough speed to take 2K uncompressed bayer video (and like all sata disks when they pass 50% capacity they are even slower, alot). 3.5" at 10000 RPM are probably OK but those are not for carrying around and hot swaping with out much extra care and alot bigger case. SAS disks has also 2.5" version and hot swap option but this needs extra controler, miniPCI to PCI conversion board (and this is over 350$ extra excluding SAS disk, and you dont know that this is working becuse SAS controlers are mostly PCI-X type ) SAS disks are also much more expensive.
Jose:
Are you shure that you can use 10000 RPM disks?
Why you dont use 1920 size frames if this is OK? (every time someone start project like this he wants max size that is available, and everytime tehnology is almost there but noth enough. Wayne is asking for 720p recorder for couple of years now and we are talking about 2K but no one has succes in DIY 1920 yet, exept you.) I think if you wanna do it now do it with what you got that is close enough and relyable enough. You can always upgrade later. There is alot other stuff unknown in front of you and this will be great expirience. Everybody doing their products like this. You are now already better then HV20, and this is quite good enough for start.
Elphel is Linux. This is for me major "dislike" and you have to wait until is finished. I think also that if you wanna try Omnivision record same things with Micron that you will record with Omnivision. You will lose only your shipping money if you return Micron.

Jose, why don't you return the board and get someone else here to get it back the same way you did? If I understand, the demo boards are to be used for a few weeks, right? Ask someone else on the project to get the same demo board? Just an idea...

Jose,

So far, I think you have captured incredible images with your Micron.

I think the datarate/HDD problem is solvable. As Take has suggested, software RAID may be enough, and would not require additional hardware... or, as Igor suggests, simply using the 10000 rpm disk you can currently record with and upgrading in the future. I think that is how PJ did it with RED, they had only the bodies and used off the shelf drives (though lost a full day of aerial footage because of helicopter vibration).

As for whether you should keep this dev board, was there any further word on the $89 dev board Steven mentioned a while back? $1300 is a lot of money if there is an actual $500 solution out there... but I do not know the specifics about the board Steven was referring to.

Why use software RAID that will hog your CPU when you could be using this CPU to losslessly compress the stream 2:1 and use one single 2"5 disk ? Don't compensate lack of software with insanely expensive and complex hardware solution. (Even more when the software part is quite simple. Everything is out there, you just need to put the bricks together)

For the board i was talking about (atmel ngw100), it's the same, there is everything to interface a cmos sensor (and usb 2, 2 ethernet 100, sd-card slot) but you will need to program everything (it's running linux). Well at least a lot of things (but there is already guy who did it, interfacing a micron MT9P031 with IDE on the board. If you buy the more expensive devkit (500$) you even get a QVGA LCD :))

Well, right now you have to chose either to bet on your project, or to go for the safe choice. If you are looking for a practical solution, I think Elphel would be best. Linux? Does that REALLY bothers?
Or you can bet on your project, and risk a lot of money, and probably get where you want to get (or not).
But (real) 1920*1080 is not really too far from 2K (128 pixels horizontal). You will probably get a very similar image.
Whatever you do I wish you best.

Steven, can you post link to ngw100 camera project please.
I have here a guy who has done some programing for Atmel camera that has to be used for film scaning. Maybe he can help us. This board looks intresting...
Sorry Jose this is again miles away from your project, but this same guy can help us with your stuff too. I will try to cantact him ASAP.

Ok, I'm going to return the board. I can always get it back whenever I want. I'd like to know more about that dev board Steven's talking about.

I want to test the Omnivision sensor and would really want to know of other possible solutions out there. There has to be another cmos manufacturer offering demo boards. You guys are great finding stuff, we could spend a week or so trying to find a different cmos+board (not already built cameras). I'll pay to get one for testing.

Also I think the perfect solution would be to low down data rate before recording. That way we won't have to push hardware limits. I'm sure I want 2.39:1 2k and I know it's possible. 1920x1080 is almost 2k. Steven is right. We've got a lack of good software. We need to find someone who can code under windows and wants to help us. Or even better, someone who can program a FPGA to lossless compress the stream before it gets to the computer. We get that, we have our 2k camera without ANY problem.

Take a look at this... Lots of info about hardware encoders and other stuff.

http://videobits.org/general_vendors.html

Here is a link to an open source FPGA resource, they have many "cores" available including video compression cores (second link).

http://www.opencores.org/

http://www.opencores.org/projects.cgi/web/video_systems/overview

Hey, if the Elphel outputs a 1920*1080 image, maybe it can output a 2048*857 (2.39:1). Maybe that is possible?

Steven, can you post link to ngw100 camera project please.
I have here a guy who has done some programing for Atmel camera that has to be used for film scaning. Maybe he can help us. This board looks intresting...

Sorry, no links, it just some sentences from the guy who did it in the www.avrfreaks.net forum. Just browse through it, you will find them... As for the board, the main problem is the processor, only rating at 200MIPS (it's like a pentium 266 ;)) which is not enough to do any video processing, so it can only be used to interface the sensor with USB2...

(btw, if you come down to it, the only good solution is similar to the elphel architecture : a general microcontroller that's running linux for easily controlling everything and a FPGA for (customisable) video processing power. My point : if the elphel size is ok for you, just use it, it's the most versatile camera for this project.)

Yes, it is a good point (and timely reminder) that the DIY HD projects inevitably it seems strike some technical hurdle on the road towards 2k. By definition a "cinema camera" needs to create an image which could be shown on a big screen if required, so 2k frame sizes are needed -- as deliverables at least -- to meet this technical threshold (and put enough distance between it and say using an HDV camcorder). There are different methods that people are looking into in order to achieve this within various current limitations.

My experiments with the Sumix cameras is to use a smaller frame size to ease the problem (usually 1600 width and whatever height for the ratio of say 1.85 or CinemaScope). Since the Bayer video recordings are uncompressed, enlargement of an uncompressed still sequence may be acceptable enough (?) for the big screen, benefiting from the power of Photoshop to handle still images (and you can use specialised plugins to help retain enlargement quality, and use an action to automate the process). Larger frames can be shot with RAM recording, though this shortens the shot duration too much to be practical.

The Elphel project seems a bit quiet at the moment, though I assume Forrest and Oscar are still experimenting with the 333 camera, and we await the initial findings of the new 353 when they become available. The realtime compression required to fit within the network data rate of these cameras (with no immediate plans of adopting GigE) is a question mark over big screen quality, and tied to finding the best realtime compression schemes which can be used with these Linux-run cameras.

Price has always been a consideration, and right now spending more than the cost of a Canon HV20 seems like quite a gamble. Hopefully, there will eventually be the breakthrough -- that small computer accessory designed for something else, an overlooked free utility or an industry leap in transmition speed -- that's the final piece in the jigsaw everyone's waiting for. When a worthy project stalls over just one small thing I despair...

I am no software coder like some of the smart people on these threads, so my contribution is less than I would like to be able give; I'm just someone who wants to make HD movies any way I can without enough money to hire the equipment. I used to work professionally in the film industry many years ago, but now I'm a Photoshop user for an art gallery (perhaps that's why my post production tends to be Photoshop-centric!). I have put myself in the hands of the Sumix corporation: the recording software I use is pure unchanged Sumix supplied application, so if I can make this work, anyone else can do the same without hacks or reverse engineering. I must say I am very pleased with the uncompressed Sumix image, and an important consideration are the lenses you use to get your pictures (hunt for your secondhand Schneider and Angenieux C-mount prime lenses and stick to them like glue!). I have delayed starting a thread once again because of the recent possibility of using HDD recording, so I'll be starting from scratch again, finding out what I can do with that form of recording using the updated Sumix application when available. I'll keep you all posted about what I find out.

Jose, your investigation into the Micron board has energised many people; I look forward to reading about what you get up to next and what the others say about it; you have character, sir!

Regards to all,
John.

Thanks John,

First of all I wanted to say that I'm not giving up on this project and I'm looking for new solutions every single day. I just sent the Micron board back. I know what it can do and I'll have no problem requesting it again if I choose it for the first completed prototype.

Now, I've got news...

First, I received a package from Omnivision today, but it seems there's been a misunderstanding. When they told me they were sending free samples after talking with them about the demo board they've got I couldn't believe I was going to have something similar to the Micron board at no cost. But of course they were refering to sample sensors. So that's it. Today I received two sample 1/2.5" sensors and nothing more. I'll contact them about the demo board, cause I cannot do anything unless I've got hardware to plug to the computer. Anyway, we've got two 5mp working sensors for free. If we find a way to make them work, then perfect. This can in fact be a huge oportunity, cause we can design our own boards to 2:1 encode the stream before capturing so we have no data rate issues. I say it again, if someone can do it, we have our camera. I've got two sensors. I'll donate one of them to anyone who can make it work.

Now, something that could be BIG. I still have to show you its datasheet and we all have to see if this can fit in the project, but today I received a mail from another reseller offering Panavision (yes, THAT Panavision) sample sensors. Those sensors can capture up to 30fps in progresive and 60fps in interlaced mode. They've got 4 times HDTV resolution, that's 3840x2160 pixels and they're big enough to use 35mm lenses (33.2mm diagonal). They're called Panavision QuadHDTV sensors and I'm attaching the complete datasheet to this post.

The bad points are:

- I still don't know their price. I do know that I can get one for testing purposes, but I'm pretty sure I'll have to pay for it.

- Don't know yet but I guess they don't have any demo board, so we have the same problem we've got with the Omnivision sensors.

- From what I've read in the datasheet, they're not so flexible to program as the Micron sensors. You cannot choose an exact desired resolution so we'd have to set it higher than 2k and then reduce it. There're a few more issues, so I'll wait for any of you to decide if this can or cannot be a good choice.

So, I'm still searching for more.

By the way, now that we're getting some responses on free sample sensors, it would be nice to find out if there's any simple way to connect them to the computer. I'm talking about some kind of board (maybe the ngw100) that we can program to get images from the sensor.

Hey Jose, great job on getting us so far! If no one else better qualified steps up to the plate on your second omni vision sensor I would be willing to give it a go. I of course can't guarantee results but I would be more then willing to try. Do you happen to know where we can find a datasheet on these chips?

I just requested the full datasheet. For now I'm attaching the brief.

If anyone else wants the other one, just ask for it. That way we'll have more chances.

Jamie, PM me with your address.

Remember our main goal is to build a basic sensor-computer interface with added in-board lossless compression if possible (to low down data rate). Developers have full freedom with the interface but I'd suggest GigE. Then we'll develop the software to control the sensor and capture the stream.

Remember there're many different options. Be open minded. Don't close doors.

By the way, don't forget the Ambarella chip! Wayne said it can be directly connected to the sensor to get H.264 streams to an IDE interface. We'd still need the computer to set up resolution, gain... but H.264 is a completely professional codec and can give very good results.

I mailed Ambarella asking for more info but no response yet.

Your omnivision sensor are on a small PCB, you just got the sensor ??
If you need to make a pcb for the sensor board, well it's going to be hard to manufacture and expensive...

For the amberella chip, i'm note sure if you can get easily a chip that support 1080p real-time compression...

(time to order a fpga board and learn VHDL it seems...)

Yes, I just have the sensor. A square piece of silicon. In a little box. Waiting for a whole system to extract sequences from it :)

By the way, remember we have a link to several encoding cores for FPGAs.

Hello Jose,

The OV5620 will not handle full resolution 2K @ 24fps.

A complete 10 bit pixel can be read from the sensor in one clock pulse. However the clock runs at 48 Mhz.

>>> 48000000 / 2048.0 / 1080.0 / 24.0
0.90422453703703709

But at 2.40 ratio it could work. However the paper also talks about maximum transfer rates at specific resolution, I am not sure if a ROI will run at maximum transfer rate.

I have found maybe a solution for highspeed serial ATA conection to LS-371:

This is miniPCI card that support port multiplier function (Chip on it is SIL 3512 that has this function, (ICH7M onboard LS-371 has no support for this only AHCPI and NCQ))
http://www.aaeon.com/PD_Products_Detail_DCCAA0A1DF3344B7BB_928F5E62D5B04DB08D_DF7954A0EABD422882_TW_utf-8.html

This is port multiplier for HDDs.
http://www.cooldrives.com/sisiharaesbr.html
It means that your system will see your two external drives as one single drive. You can join those two drives in single enclousure in raid 0 or 1 (jumper selected onboard this multiplier device. I think it has internal hardware RAID fuinction) and have eSATA hot swap. It will run one single cable from your controller to disk enclousure. So when you need uncompressed go for Raid 0, when you need compressed go for Raid 1 for safety.

Here is sata to eSATA internal- external connection:
http://www.cooldrives.com/essaii3gbexp.html
I have not found single one type so you only use one port.

I hope this can help us, and all this sounds very familiar....Like I have seen this somewhere before.

Can someone please check this out once more, maybe I have not seen something.

Take, every time I speak about 2K I mean 2.39:1 2k, that's 2048x858 pixels.

I've been contacted by Cypress. They're offering me two different sensors (not the Ibis). One's smaller and cheap (rolling shutter and less sensitivity) and the other's near 35mm size and global shutter. Both can do 2k at 24fps.

I'll tell you prices and stuff asap.

Chips only, no dev board?

No, this time I'm requesting the whole package. Dev board included.

If you want to hire somebody to make ti, you have Take, and also Rob Scott has software already, but I think he is no longer doing it for free.

The Ambarella chip has an ARM micro-controller, so should be able to be setup to control, the system instead of an PC. But, where ever the array of SPARC (or was that MIPS) processors are assessable and programmable is the question, and how programmable, and how much programming is needed. Basically view it as, possibly, equivalent to the guts of the Elphel, maybe even an bit more configurable (display memory cards ports etc).

There is open-source FPGA of BBC's Dirac Pro video codec:
http://dirac.sourceforge.net/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/diracpro.shtml

If you approach cineform, you can purchase an mass license for their codec at an cheap price, but you have to make all the rest of the program.

The MacMini also has a AirPort Extreme that is connected to a 1x PCI Express. Probably through a "PCI Express Mini Card" connector.

I couldn't find a Mini Card to PCI Express extender, but it may allow connection with a capture card or firewire 800.

So Mac Mini has PIC-E, I wonder if I could get Intensity card working on that?

About Mac Mini PC, does not have the GPU capacity, but expected GPU to come.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812232002&CMP=EMC-IGNEFL072407&ATT=N82E16812232002

Can something like that be modified to take an feed from an USB camera directly to an hard drive?

I have become so cynical, that I just realised I haven't posted this thread over at my technical thread. If there is any others I have forgot please feel free to post them there:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=28781
Just looking at the thread numbers, I have been around here for over 50K threads {:(

Found some amusing stuff in terms of the PC, an version with GigE/USB and IDE would be interesting:

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/smurf-computing/tiny-wee-via-mobile-itx-motherboard-to-power-x86-smartphones-266737.php
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,132809-page,1/article.html

There is another intresting motherboard like LS-371.
http://www.aaeon.com.tw/PD_Products_Detail_AEEE87FC762C45F1AC_EA1D2574F36244838D_7B900D899D28451BB3_US_utf-8.html
This one has propriatry expansion port (along with mini PCI) that has PCI-e!
I have email them to see if this add on is available. If it is, I have Intensity on this ASAP.

Wow! This one's just great! How much? If it's cheap enough I'll buy it and I'll start building the computer part.

little more or same as ls-371. search thru their site they have enclusures for testbed, and lots of addons. I will post you if they answer me.

Hey Jose, did you get the PM I sent you a few days back with my address?

No, I didn't. You can mail me.

I sent you an email Jose, let me know if you didn't get it. Also I would recommend removing your email address from that last post, don't want you to get any undo spam.

So any luck getting a datasheet from omnivision?

Just thought I would let you guys know that that thanks to opencores.org I have found someone who is working on a very similar project, so we have teamed up in our efforts. Basically we are planing to interface both the omnivision and the Micron chips to an FPGA and allow the user to output to either a hard drive or GigE! Right now we are still in the very early stages so it may be a few months before we have anything that works, but the future is looking promising!

Jose could you let me know for sure if you got my email and if you have had anything luck with the datasheets?

If you are looking for the full datasheet of MT9P micron sensor, Jose attached it somewhere in the thread... If you don't find it, i can send it to you.

By the way, i was going to start on my own something very similar to your project, it would be a pity to waste human resource on duplicate work. Would it be possible to join efforts ?

Ok. Perfect! This looks promising!

Now, Jamie. I didn't get your mail. I don't know why. How can we do it?

I contacted Cypress. They've got the LUPA4000 which gets to 24fps at 2048x858 without any problem. It's a big sensor, so DOF is not an issue. I'd have to pay for the sensor (about $1100) but they loan the evaluation kit for free. So I can test it but as soon as the testing process finishes, I'm left with a single $1100 sensor and nothing more. Don't know if that's a good idea.

Also I'm still waiting for the Panavision quotation.

The Omnivision guy didn't answer yet. I'm waiting for the sensor datasheet and the answer about the possibility to get a demo board.

I think Micron and possibly Omnivision are the most balanced options. Having in mind that the only thing Cypress and Panavision offer is sensor size (both have rolling shutter as well) and they're way more expensive than the others, I think we should put all our efforts on making Micron and Omnivision sensors work the way we want. That way we'll have our low cost HD and 2K camera. If anyone wants to add an adaptor for DOF (like me), then go ahead, but our main goal here is having a working camera.

Ok. Perfect! This looks promising!

Now, Jamie. I didn't get your mail. I don't know why. How can we do it?

I contacted Cypress. They've got the LUPA4000 which gets to 24fps at 2048x858 without any problem. It's a big sensor, so DOF is not an issue. I'd have to pay for the sensor (about $1100) but they loan the evaluation kit for free. So I can test it but as soon as the testing process finishes, I'm left with a single $1100 sensor and nothing more. Don't know if that's a good idea.

Also I'm still waiting for the Panavision quotation.

The Omnivision guy didn't answer yet. I'm waiting for the sensor datasheet and the answer about the possibility to get a demo board.

I think Micron and possibly Omnivision are the most balanced options. Having in mind that the only thing Cypress and Panavision offer is sensor size (both have rolling shutter as well) and they're way more expensive than the others, I think we should put all our efforts on making Micron and Omnivision sensors work the way we want. That way we'll have our low cost HD and 2K camera. If anyone wants to add an adaptor for DOF (like me), then go ahead, but our main goal here is having a working camera.

LUPA4000 is monochrome. (Unless they recently have made color version?)

Right now my favorite sensor is the Foveon F13:
http://www.alt-vision.com/f13.htm

1280x720 at 24fps in FULL 4:4:4 color. It's also a big sensor, so you get the cinematic DOF.

Color purity, sharpness, and dynamic range are gonig to be through the roof, due to VPS binning. I'd say, upsampled to 1080p, it would rival native 1080p bayer sensors.

Yes, the Foveon is one of the best sensors out there but, is it affordable?

I don't know if you've seen the development kit for that sensor but it includes a P4 computer, a screen and a big box full of different boards including the camera head, the cameralink output and a Nikon F mount. I don't think we can afford it.

Have you asked for a quotation?

Maybe upscaling a Foveon 720p image we can get to the quality we get with a 2K bayer sensor but, is it really the best solution?

Yes, the Foveon is one of the best sensors out there but, is it affordable?

I don't know if you've seen the development kit for that sensor but it includes a P4 computer, a screen and a big box full of different boards including the camera head, the cameralink output and a Nikon F mount. I don't think we can afford it.

Have you asked for a quotation?

Maybe upscaling a Foveon 720p image we can get to the quality we get with a 2K bayer sensor but, is it really the best solution?

The Foveon F13 Sensor is used in the Sigma SD14 SLR which is less than $999.
I've asked for a quote. I really don't think the sensor should cost more than an SLR camera that it comes in! :) Of course, the development kit may be rather expensive.

I'm personally more interested in a true 4:4:4 720p image than bayer 1080p or 2k.