Hi to everybody,

Like with the most event filmers I cant afford a whole bunch of P2 cards if I´d purchase a P2 camcorder (like HPX500).

I am not sure if I would always need the full dvcproHD quality when doing "simple" events, HDV compression would be sufficient for these jobs as well.

What wonders me is that Panasonic implemented different formats (dvcpro50 AND dvcpro DV std) regarding SD shooting, but no HDV codec to use longer recording times at "lower" compression quality.
If there would be a 4:2:0 25mbit/s compression (HDV) 4 16Gig P2 cards would allow a HD recording of ~250 Minutes (same data rate as SD dvcproDV) - THAT would help me using the HPX for general shooting.

Probably this is a licensing thing, but after the HPX500 seems to have a very good head and delivers very vibrant pictures, I would love to see a "less hungry" HD coded for longer recordings...

AND if I need more quality - well , then I have to buy more P2 cards or FS100 or...

Any comments on that?

ULI

I'm not sure what you're referring to by "hungry" but HDV and DVCPRO are comletely different types of codecs.

HDV is what's called a "long-GOP" codec where there are no individual frames but instead frames are bundled together as a "group of pictures" (where the GOP term comes from). Sony's version of long-GOP is 15 frames, Canon and JVC use a shorter version between 10-13 frames. Long-GOP is more efficient at moving large chunks of data through an IT network and is how the networks send signals up to satellites for example, but is highly taxing in an editing system requiring up to 5 times more computing resources to edit which is why many complain about extra-ordinary long render times when editing in HDV.

A direct example of how "hungry" HDV is in editing: one of my clients had a 4-minute HDV segment with 7 layers of filters and effects; it took over 2 hours to render that sequence. We did a test and converted that same content into DVCPRO-HD re-applied the exact filters and effects in the same 4-minute sequence and it only took about 20 minutes to render on the same machine. On aquisition and playback HDV and DVCPRO are *fairly similar* in image quality with DVCPRO having superior color information (4:2:2) however it's in editing that HDV rears it's ugly head in requiring so much more horsepower from edit systems.

DVCPRO, HDCAM and a few other codecs are "independent frame" type or "i-frame" as it's commonly referred to. Each frame of video stands on it's own and is not directly tied to adjacent frames.

See www.adamwilt.com for a detailed explanation of the differences between codecs/formats.

Panasonic will not ever adopt any flavor of HDV since DVCPRO is the compression technology they have developed. Going forward AVC-Intra will surpass DVCPRO in image quality at similar bitrates.

Interestingly enough, Panasonic and Sony co-developed the next generation of HD compression codecs for the consumer market, AVCHD which is also a long-GOP type of codec but more efficient still than HDV. AVCHD however will not be implemented in the professional line of camcorders for Panny, only DVCPRO and AVC-Intra will be available.

I think this is the most succinct summary of HD codecs I've ever read. Thanks.

AVCHD however will not be implemented in the professional line of camcorders for Panny, only DVCPRO and AVC-Intra will be available.
Technically the AVC-HD format is already in the professional line; the AG-HSC1U is from the broadcast division and uses AVC-HD. I expect that we'll see a lot more adoption of AVC-HD as soon as someone makes a camera worthy of the format.

Barry,

Have you got to see the AVCHD DVD cam by Canon? HR10 was it?
It's not professional, but it's probably better optics and processor than AG-HSC1U and also do 24fps. Just wondering if you did, how is your impression on it?

Uli, from my experiences from both cam, something like XHG1 could be handy for your shooting. Too bad HVX200 is not as good in dark environment and HPX500 would be little too large?

@Robert: thanks for the detailed explanation.

I guess you got me wrong: I appreciate 100% the dvcpro HD codec.

What I tried to explain was I´d love to see another less-memory-consuming HD codec as an alternative option - imagine dvcproHD (100mbit/s) as "HD HQ" and a (longgop mpg, whatever xy) lower bitrate compression for longer HD recordings.

At the moment I do a lot of 3-4 hrs event filming (for example company anniversaries) where I dont see a chance to copy the P2s.
On the other hand I dont want to spend thousands of dollars for lets say 16 P2 16GB card (that would sum up to 30.000 $ - P2 cards only).

With THESE events I (and probably some other users) could live with a lower datarate (= higher compression) - again said: AS AN OPTION.

Panasonic has implemented these thoughts in SD resolution, where you can choose the codec vs recording time.

Ok, these are MY thoughts only - but at the moment this is the only point that frightens me from purchasing - and I am not sure if I could rely on a FS100 only... (that´d mean 2hrs recording - still not enough rec time...)

ULi

No, I haven't seen the Canon; I've got an HV20 but I haven't seen the AVC-HD version.

I´d love to see another less-memory-consuming HD codec as an alternative optionHi Uli,

I hear you. But we will never see HDV from Panasonic, as they are not a member of the HDV consortium. However Panasonic is a member of the AVCHD consortium, so that option is much more likely to happen.

Yes - you´re right...

hmpf... purchasing a HPX500 would mean to me:

a) record to fs100 (with all pros and cons)
b) how mount the fs100 "professionally" to the cam?
c) find a workflow to edit dvcproHD in Vegas (I am a VEGAS fan!)
d) or change to another NLE?
e) look for 4x Harddrive space...

uh man, that are a lot of thrills AT THE SAME TIME...

a) & b) You could use the FireStore, but why? Don't the European packages include the four 16GB cards? That'd give you more space than the FireStore anyway.

c) Get Raylight. P2 footage works *fantastic* with Vegas when using Raylight. It's perfect integration, true drag 'n' drop right to the timeline.

d) No need, Vegas works great with P2 and Raylight.

e) Yes, but it's not like that extra space isn't getting you something. You're getting 4:2:2 color sampling, frame-discrete compression, 1080 & 720, variable frame rates, absolute insurance from any type of motion artifacting, etc. But yes, it does take up more space. (and, hey, hard drives are getting really cheap; I saw a 500GB for $139...)

Hi Barry,

reading the manual I see (am I wrong) that 4 x 16GIG are ~64 Minutes DVCPRO HD... that seems less than the Firestore?

I have a lot of 3-4hrs shootings (not completely continuus) so I guess I cannot copy the data from the P2s to a harddrive while the event.

I am too afraid that I run out of memory and cant swap in time...

But anyway , I have to see a HPX under lowlight , I am really looking forward to a detailed review!

Thanks

ULi

I see... that 4 x 16GIG are ~64 Minutes DVCPRO HD... that seems less than the Firestore?

True if you're shooting in 1080i60 or 720p60.

However if you choose 720p30, you'll get 128 minutes on the cards, or 160 minutes on the cards if you're shooting 720p24. See my P2 Card Capacities chart at http://www.p2info.net/articles/misc/p2cardcaps.php.

Oops -- you're located in DE, so I should have used the terms i50 and p25, but you get the idea...

Uli: I echo what Kaku said above. Get a good HDV camera.. I made many documentaries (several were broadcast) in the last year and a half with an XL H1 and an A1 and was very impressed - although it's true that the render time is horrendous if you want to output to tape, it's not bad within the work environment - if you use FCP6 (so much is RT) and a card like a Black Magic DeckLink card (so you can use an external monitor)...

Since 90% of output these days is DVD anyway, the problem of going to tape only comes up occasionally... And the quality of 1080i from the Canons is remarkable (the files size is actually slightly smaller than Mini-DV)... Edit in HDV so you can always go back when HD DVD or Blue Ray is needed - and for now just crunch it in Compressor to make your DVD and it will look fantastic to all but those few people in the world that love to scan frozen images and pick out compression artifacts...

I'm using the HPX500 now for reasons that have to do with broadcast acceptance and film-out options, requested by a funder.. It sounds like for your needs, DVCPRP HD wouldn't offer many advantages...

reading the manual I see (am I wrong) that 4 x 16GIG are ~64 Minutes DVCPRO HD... that seems less than the Firestore?
Yep, sorry, brain freeze. The 32gb cards are due at the end of this year, and four of THOSE would give you more recording time than the FireStore. Sorry, got ahead of the schedule there...

Well, I do not only events (most last year) but also some corporate...

Anyway, the decision must not be made today, but I see the HPX (I want definitely a full sized shoulder cam again) is a serious choice.

Chris, I didnt think of shooting pN , thats a good thought!
Is it possible to mix different formats on a card (if there is some fast action to shoot simply switch to 50/60P?)?

Hey, please send me two of the AJ-P2C128H, asap ;-)

Uli

Is it possible to mix different formats on a card (if there is some fast action to shoot simply switch to 50/60P?)?

Yes, you can freely intermix any mode, any frame rate, any resolution, all on the same card. You can shoot SD 4:3, SD 16:9, HD 720, HD 1080, PAL or NTSC, 24p or 30p or 60i, 25p or 50i, slow-mo or fast-mo or normal, all on the same card.

Thanks!

ULi

Yes, you can freely intermix any mode, any frame rate, any resolution, all on the same card. You can shoot SD 4:3, SD 16:9, HD 720, HD 1080, PAL or NTSC, 24p or 30p or 60i, 25p or 50i, slow-mo or fast-mo or normal, all on the same card.

That is the beauty of P2, I experienced some cumbersome management when I had to record different frame formats on a same tape (which I don't usually do, but sometimes I didn't have time to change the tape).

Only thing with P2 is that I have to change the correspondent frame/format mode to playback various frame/format clips on the camera. Changing the frame/fomat requires the camera to blink (not totally shut down?), so I guess that can't be helped I guess... But I love P2 when I once transfer to Mac, I can bring various formats all at once if I wanted to.

Barry, does Rayligt provide more information with clips on P2 while browsing (that means before you bring them in to Mac) like frame/formats?
FCP6's Log and Transfer (not sure if the naming is right because I run Japanese version) P2 window does not give you much informaiton with clips on P2 card or P2 volumes. I was wondering fi Raylight give me a lot more information before I bring them in to FCP.

does Rayligt provide more information with clips on P2 while browsing (that means before you bring them in to Mac) like frame/formats?
FCP6's Log and Transfer (not sure if the naming is right because I run Japanese version) P2 window does not give you much informaiton with clips on P2 card or P2 volumes. I was wondering fi Raylight give me a lot more information before I bring them in to FCP.


Raylight gives you all, or nearly all, the metadata in quicktime annotations (readable in quicktime pro) and also in a one-frame "slate" that is readable in the Quicktime player or the FCP viewer. It will also automatically name the clips according to the "UserClipName" so you can have clip names like "Scene 23 Take 0001" etc. that are generated by the camera, and organize them into folders based on the "Program Name" metadata item.

Also there is a new revision 1.06 coming soon (next week) that has somewhat more refined slate and naming features based on feedback from some of our customers that are using it for television news work.

The main advantage of Raylight for Mac is that you can edit straight off the P2 Card if you want, taking the backup process out of the critical time path and eliminating the P2 Import / Log and Transfer step.

There is a free demo at http://dvfilm.com/raylight/mac

I would love to see a "less hungry" HD coded for longer recordings...

If you can wait until the end of this year to buy a camera, check out the Sony XDCAM EX. This will have a larger sensor than other low-cost HD cameras and record in XDCAM HD format at bit rates higher than HDV but less than DVCProHD on reasonably priced flash memory cards. This looks like the camera to answer the limitations of both HDV cameras and Panasonic options without being too terribly expensive (expected to be under $8K).

By the way, regarding HDV editing that can be improved significantly by capturing the footage to an intermediate codec like Cineform Aspect HD, Canopus HQ or the new Apple ProRes. This increases the file size but reduces processor requirements to be similar to I-frame recording codecs like DVCProHD.