Whats a good inexpensive (as far as they go) steady arm setup that is mainly for use with a XHA1 but potentially a XLH1 in the future? I assume the arms are the way to go for smooth video, just using a device like the glidecam is nice but really not smooth without an arm that takes the weight off. So whats good out there and what should I be looking for?

What is you budget?

The handheld versions are actually just as smooth as the body-mounts, in fact in the case of many low-end body-mounts, the handheld version is probably smoother (as the human arm is more effective at dampening than the simple spring mechanism used in cheap arms). The Flyer and upcoming Merlin/Pilot arm is an exception to this.

However, if one is using a handheld rig with a camera like the A1 and heavier, over a period of time the fatigue factor will start to affect steadiness of the image. With an H1, you will definitely want to be using an arm-based system.

What is you budget?

Do not have one set, I want as low as possible for decent quality for low budget behind the scenes and training DVD's so I don't want to spend tens of thousands but if entry level for a decent picture is 500 OK, 1000 ok 2000 I may wait but at least I know what is good, what I am looking for and what budget I need. Its not worth it to get something that is cheap but does not do the job. I would love it if any of these arms would also possibly work on a dolly setup if rigged to do so, Is that possible?

so smoothshooter or indie cam look possibe, though pricy how are they? is that a typical price point for this or are there lower priced options, the smooth looks like its about 1800 with a glidecam 4000 that siound about right? will it work with a merlin, and will a merlin work with an XHA1 or XLH1?

It is possible to hard-mount a stabilizer arm to a dolly, although most of the manufacturers do not market the parts to do this--reasonably easy to get something made at a local machine shop however. Very few people ask about this with smaller stabilizers, but it is a practice we regularly use with the full-size rigs for various reasons.

Smooth Shooter is nominally not compatible with a Merlin (again, the mating parts could be built to accomodate this however). Merlin can handle an A1 but not an H1, you would need to move up to the Flyer or the upcoming Pilot rig within the Tiffen (Steadicam brand) family. The Tiffen rigs are the best in class but of course, the most expensive. Check out Steadicam.com for info on those.

ok tiffen looks very pricey, how are the indiecam and smoothshooter which are much less expensive, if say I connect the glidecam to it?

They both work and do the job, which as you say is your main consideration. You'd likely be happy with either.

Keep in mind, though, that the SmoothShooter only has one articulated arm whereas the Indicam PILOT has dual articulated arms.

That means:
- greater range of motion (more than double the boom range)
- more dampening from your body (two springs vs one)


Not to mention that the PILOT sled has a great advantage with its adjustable gimbal and CNC machined parts.

This means:
- easy adjustment of 'drop time'
- easy adjustment to go into 'low mode' where the camera is balanced
- more fine-tunability for your operating style
- easier balancing


Also, Terry from Indicam provides great service and will gladly take the time to walk things through with you if you have any questions.

Like Charles says, you'll likely be happy with either, but the Indicam is better bang for the buck. If the funds ever do become available for you, Steadicam is the way to go but if you're on a budget, I'd take a long hard look at Indicam.

Also, don't discard Steadicam entirely just yet.

The Steadicam Pilot is by far the best rig for the size of cameras that you are looking at. It is more than the SS and the Ind!cam, but not *that* much more expensive. It's generally recomended that you buy the best rig you can afford if you are serious about Steadicam. If you can stretch a little to the pilot, it will be well worth it in the long-run.

Of course, the Pilot isn't shipping yet, so it's neither available, nor is it's street price finalized. But it should ship pretty soon I think. (Giving you time to save up a few extra $$ if necesarry.

- Mikko

so the difference is about 1650 for the smooth shooter and glidecam 4000 up to 10lbs or the indiecam at 1950 with pilot sled, up to 11lbs, or an upgrade to 14lbs for 2190

I was curious which is better I would prefer to be able to use an xlh1 in the future even though mainly this will be an xha1 or even a hv20 which is overkill but will be possibly used for b roll on occassion.

But for the xlh1 do I need the upgraded arm to 14lbs? and is the price of 2190 for everything I would need to ,mount a xha1 on the system, sled and arm/vest? or is that just an upgraded arm?

Also, don't discard Steadicam entirely just yet.

The Steadicam Pilot is by far the best rig for the size of cameras that you are looking at. It is more than the SS and the Ind!cam, but not *that* much more expensive. It's generally recomended that you buy the best rig you can afford if you are serious about Steadicam. If you can stretch a little to the pilot, it will be well worth it in the long-run.

Of course, the Pilot isn't shipping yet, so it's neither available, nor is it's street price finalized. But it should ship pretty soon I think. (Giving you time to save up a few extra $$ if necesarry.

- Mikko

OK so how much more is the steadicam pilot estimated to be for a complete setup, sled and arm/vest? and when is it shipping, its not a saving up time I am looking to buy as soon as possible for shooting training dvds now through september and beyond.

I see your shooting with a steadicam thats costs over 29,000 I am not deluding myself into thinking I will get the same level of quaility from a 2,000 unit as a 30,000 unit, I am also not making anything that warrants that expense at least not yet. So what will be decent for getting smoother footage at a lower pricepoint? so far the smoothshooter and more likely the indiecam look to be it, do they produce decent results for video or not worth it is the question.

Well I seem to think the indicam looks a bit better with the dual arm, but I may go with the smoothshooter simply because I can pick it up at BH and if it does not work its returnable relatively easily, so I can try to load it up with an XHL1 firestore and radio and see, even though I will mainly be using it for an XHA1 with firestore, and maybe led light.

Stephen Eastwood
http://www.StephenEastwood.com

Something to remember, and those of us who are battle-weary practitioners of the flying camera arts sound like a broken record on this point (broken CD? broken MP3? need to update reference here): all of these things require plenty of practice, none of them will "work" that well out of the box in the sense that it is a brand new skill. So it's a bit hard to judge how well one arm works over another if you are new to gimballed stabilizers. However, if you've done plenty of time on a handheld rig, it's a relatively quick adjustment to get used to an added arm/vest combo.

Something to remember, and those of us who are battle-weary practitioners of the flying camera arts sound like a broken record on this point (broken CD? broken MP3? need to update reference here): all of these things require plenty of practice, none of them will "work" that well out of the box in the sense that it is a brand new skill. So it's a bit hard to judge how well one arm works over another if you are new to gimballed stabilizers. However, if you've done plenty of time on a handheld rig, it's a relatively quick adjustment to get used to an added arm/vest combo.

Thanks for that advice Charles.

I believe the SmoothShooter and Indicam are very close price-wise.

B&H has the SmoothShooter for $1449.95 while the Indicam arm and vest is $1475.

The Glidecam 4000 at B&H is $399.95 bringing the SmoothShooter & GC 4000 combo to $1849.90.

The Indicam PILOT arm, vest, & sled will cost you $1950 and you get many more features and benefits, some of which I listed in my previous post.

The Steadicam Pilot's arm and vest (actually called the Merlin arm and vest, which I believe is the same thing... correct me if I'm wrong, Mikko) retails at $1995.

The Steadicam Pilot system with arm, vest, and sled (which includes monitor) is listed for $3750 at tiffen.com.

If you already have a Glidecam 2000, 4000, or other handheld stabilizer, I would go with the Steadicam arm and vest. If not, I would check out Indicam and if budget allows, check out the Steadicam Pilot.

Don't discard Steadicam as they are the innovators and you just can't go wrong with one.

Regarding Indicam, I believe Terry has a pretty generous return policy if you want to try it out.

Also, regarding Charles' reminder that flying cameras is a new skill, you can learn a lot just from searching on this board (particularly from Charles' and Mikko's posts). Terry from Indicam just came out with a new Stabilizer Basics video, which has been getting good reviews. And Charles has plans for his own training video in the works but no details yet as to its release date (he's a very busy man).

You'll notice I mention Indicam a lot and that's because I own one :) Terry has been very helpful and has been great at explaining things and helping me to understand these contraptions better (I believe the more you understand how these things work, the better you can work with your new contraption :)

Anyways, if you'd like to see the variety of shots you can achieve with the Indicam PILOT without having to take time off to set up, rebalance, etc, check out this link (http://kairosweddingfilms.blogspot.com/2007/05/trash-dress-grunge-style.html?dvinfo). Standard shooting, low mode, high shot all transitioned between shots without holding up the bride or photographer. Every shot was taken with the Indicam... no tripod, monopod, etc. In run and gun situations like I'm in, the features of the Indicam are a boon.

Well the question now becomes, is the steadicam pilot worth waiting for over the smoothshooter or indicam? The steadicam pilot will have a weight limit of 10lbs and cost about 3950 with video or 3750 with a 3 1/2" video screen, while the others are about 1900-2300 without video and weight limits from 10-14lbs

And of those (indicam and smoothshooter) for an XHL1 and radio, firestore/led light need a dual arm indicam or can the smoothshooter or single 10lb arm work? I guess this is only truely answered by someone who has tried out both, or at least tried one at the higher end limits to say how that one handled at the high end of the weight class.

Peter, as for your demo its very well done and smooth, I like it, and funny I just happened to find that trash your dress site the other day from something unrelated. Now as for the tech side of it what camera and equipment, and I ask not from a video sense, but to get a feel for what type of weight you had on the arm and also what arm single or double?

Stephen Eastwood
http://www.StephenEastwood.com

OK so I received an email about another alternative product on the market does anyone know anything about this http://fsprostab.com/english/components/components.htm

It supposedly handles from 6-20lbs.

OK so I received an email about another alternative product on the market does anyone know anything about this http://fsprostab.com/english/components/components.htm

It supposedly handles from 6-20lbs.

Was it from the owner of the company or customer? You can also look at the links on thier site that host customers that have bought the product and see thier demo.

Owner I believe

Chris,

Just to jump in and clarify...We do offer a 30 return policy. Just don't "Trash the rig". Get it?

We have also just built a number of double upgraded arms which can fly cameras ranging from 1 pound to around 15 pounds. The total weight the arm can hold is 24-25 pounds taking into account the added weight of the sled and all.

We've tried it out a few times with the max weight and wonder why anyone would want to fly something that heavy. You have to realize that I don't just manufacture the Indicam PILOT, I shoot steadicam shots with it as well. The heaviest cameras we have flown are the Canon XL2, the HVX200, and the Sony Z1U with remote mic. The video is fantastic but we know there are camera operators who like even bigger cameras. More power to you.

Tery
Indicam

P.S. Thanks Peter

My feeling about the heavier end of this class of stabilizer is that the weak link in the chain is the vest, which doesn't provide the type of support necessary to be comfortable with the greater load. Terry, I'd suspect that given a more beefy vest you'd be fine with a heavier camera on board--certainly it's still a substantial weight and you have to get used to it, but more rigidity spreads the weight across more muscle groups.

so let me just ask, what is the single vs double upgrade, they all have a double articulated arm and one has two sets of springs?

Is the upgrade just to add stronger springs in the single and two springs in teh double?

Peter, as for your demo its very well done and smooth, I like it, and funny I just happened to find that trash your dress site the other day from something unrelated. Now as for the tech side of it what camera and equipment, and I ask not from a video sense, but to get a feel for what type of weight you had on the arm and also what arm single or double?

Stephen, my setup is very light and small to simplify things. For that shoot, I had the Indicam PILOT with single upgraded arms and discreet vest. For some of the shots I used the High Shot accessory as well. The total weight of the sled and camera is about 7.5 pounds. I'm using a Sony HC1.

so let me just ask, what is the single vs double upgrade, they all have a double articulated arm and one has two sets of springs?

Is the upgrade just to add stronger springs in the single and two springs in teh double?
They are all double articulated arms. The single and double upgraded allow the arm to carry more weight. I believe the regular arm carries up to 11 pounds, the single upgraded carries up to 14 pounds, and the double upgraded up to 24 pounds.