Steve, I'm not sure why you think this cam is designed for professional use (your post certainly suggests that). People use these things (even professionals like me) as a 'shoot & go' cam. I don't care about things that I would care about if shooting professionally. Several people have commented in the same manner, but you continue to insist a higher level of function than any consumer cam was designed for. You continue to disparage cameras that don't have controls that YOU specify. No cam can please everyone.

The bias control, which is lacking on the Canons, happens to be very very useful. It is smooth and transparent. Bias controls aside, the Sony is well-known to be the best 'fully auto' camera in terms of how effectively it uses its controls in the full auto position. The front wheel control is a brilliant piece of engineering in a consumer cam. I use it all the time and the ability to control several manual functions with one dial is very nice. If you think that wheel is useless for manual focus, you should try the manual focus on the Canon! As to why you think manual control of WB, Spot exposure and focus is unusable is beyond me. I've used them all (WB more frequently) and have had zero issues.

I see no reason given the kind of shooting I (or most people) do when on family outings, vacations or whatever, to absolutely need to know what the f-stop is. C'mon Steve, this is NOT a professional camera and was never designed as such. Your JVC with all of its manual controls may emualte a higher end camera in terms of these controls, but it won't emulate them in terms of its picture quality. If I want these controls plus the picture quality, I need to go to a larger camera than either the consumer Sonys or Canons. If I want the best PQ in full auto (or even in manual on other consumer AVCHD cams), the Sony does best IMO.

The way I see it is, would I rather have a camera with more manual controls or one that simply takes better video with less manual controls. A simple no-brainer for me.

Now, as for the menu system, you're simply not used to it. Just as I find things in FCP to be 'convuluted' and Edius to be 'logical', a day in & day out user of FCP knows the features and finds nothing convuluted. Having used these Sony menus before, I find them entirely logical and well laid out. It's what you're accustomed to Steve.

Steve, you went in to this with a decidedly negative attitute...far from a scientific approach. The cam had 'one foot in the grave' before you ever took it out of the box. If I were you I would never have bought it in the first place. Whenever I see someone like you do this I just scratch my head since the end result is known and inevitable.

Sorry to chime in at this very delicate moment but as a long-term user of Sony video cams, there is one thing I think most (not all) users of Sony consumer camcorders will appreciate: switching from the touch screen menu system to some kind of multi-function physical control such as the multi-function control ring (in the place where the manual focus ring would customarily be) e.g. Sony SR-1, UX-1 or the current small knob, as on the SR-11, SR-12. A small toggle knob (as on most Panasonic or Sanyo cams would also be nice and certainly more accessible. And the downside for having such controls on the camera's body, not on the flipped out LCD screen of course!, may be the loss of a tidy looking body and the inability for Sony's marketing department to shout out loud "TOUCH SCREEN CONTROL......" in their ads.

Everytime I've fiddled with my cams' touch screen, I truly wished there had been some buttons or knobs that I probably missed that would have made things easier for me.

Wacharapong

Pressing and holding the button in the center of the control knob allows you to change functions - and you can choose and set one, switch the knob to another and adjust that, and so on.

I do somewhat miss the "P-MENU" approach the HC1,3,5,7,9 had... where you could reach most functions in two presses max once you personalized the interface. I find the options and home menus confuse me once in a while, being in opposite corners of the screen, probably just a matter of time to absorb the interface...

The control knob is 100% better than the control wheel contraption of the earlier HC's and the HV's... a "real" ring would be even better, but size vs. control surface availability is the obvious challenge.

I explained WHY one needs an F-stop read-out. Diffraction reduces sharpness when -- with a 1/3-inch chip -- the F-stop becomes smaller than f/5.6 -- for red the blurring start below f/4. You seem to be suggesting that I should forget everything I know as a videographer just because I'm shooting vacation videos.

I explained why one must be able to control shutter-speed. Just because I pick-up a tiny camcorder should I give-up any notion that by setting the shutter-speed to 1/60th the shots out of the window of my car will look perfect rather than stroby? Why should a photographer who knows how to shoot give-up what they know just because the camera is small and cheap?

The fact that the Canon offers both options in a camera that is both smaller and cheaper proves there is no inherent reason Sony couldn't have these features. Yet, you point the finger at me as wanting too much. Seems to me that Canon's long experience as a maker of still cameras tells them that these functions are critical to a CAMERA.

You see -- the things you knock about the Canon can all be fixed either with more light or fixed in post (CC). The features that are missing in the Sony are not fixable.

A camera is a camera -- not a computer. It is crazy to try to navigate down three menu layers to do a WB. And, WB is something one MUST be able to in any MIXED illumination situation! No AWB can know what YOU want the scene to look like.

In fact, the menu system will be impossible to use in the bright sun because you won't be able to see the screen. And, you can't use the VF because it's turned-off. And, I don't know how you can TOUCH the screen multiple times while shooting and not shake the camera.

Bottom-line -- I don't even need to shoot with the Sony to know it will have problems in many very common situations: bright sun, rapidly moving cars, mixed lighting. Are you really saying it's asking too much to expect to have the OPTION of taking control of a CAMERA in these very common situations.

You see the issue isn't as you say my wanting a "professional" camera. It's that a "professional" expects ANY camera -- even one aimed at consumers to function as all cameras have always function. There's a reason why the 35mm cameras your grandfather or great grandfather used to take vacation pictures and baby pictures had these controls. There's a reason why he was proud of his skills. Can you really be proud of something a computer does for you?

Sony has made the decision that folks today are so much dumber than than their parents that there's no need for these controls. Canon has not made this decision. Now, it seems to me there is a clear choice to be made.

That doesn't mean I won't choose the Sony. But, I'm not going to accept your criticism that I should not expect a camera to have these functions because I'm "asking too much."

I don't think that's what he was saying, Steve. His point was that the primary target market for these camcorders are all those people who are not videographers -- soccer moms, golf dads, affluent kids on Spring Break. You know, those people. Therefore it's specifically designed so that a person (any person) doesn't have to know the first thing about videography in order to use one.

Once you've taken as much video as I have with the SR11/12, please report back to me about this reduced sharpness. I haven't seen and it's not an issue. I've shot in all types of light. You need to look at each lens as a separate entity and not generalize across the board. Just as we know the CA issues with some of Canon's prosumer lens, the same issue isn't seen on cams such as the HV10 or HV20. Each lens is different my friend. I've viewed all my footage on a 60" 1080p plasma, not a small computer monitor. As a result I'd be able to spot lens issues. The problem your describing was something I saw on my Sony FX7, but not the SR12. Additionally, you'll reach a point with the Canon where you will still need a neutral density or polarizing filter to avoid this. You can raise the shutter speed and then get your dreaded strobe issues, or reduce the shutter speed and fall victim to your soft image.

The fact is that strobing to the degree you're mentioning is only seen under certain conditions and certain subject movements. Rarely do I see this as an issue. Your posts come across so anti-Sony and pro-Canon, again I sit here and scratch my head why anyone like you would buy an SR11. You knew all these issues going in and yet you still bought it. There was another guy on another forum that did that and I predicted accurately he would return his (also bought his at Costco). Everything he reported on the Sony was negative despite the fact that user error and sheer ignorance was responsible for almost all his issues. If I felt like you or he, I would never touch the Sony with a 10' pole...or any camera I felt that way about.

Yeah, the guy I spoke of above always said that too. But you see Steve, you are 100% wrong about being able to 'fix in post'. First off, why SHOULD someone be forced to 'fix in post'. What if I don't care to correct colors that should have been correct in acquisition. Ah yes, it's the Canon so we can forgive it. The fact is that Canon's colors are so wrong at times you can stand on your head and spit nickels and you won't get correct color in acquisition or in post. Anyone that's done extensive editing knows there is NO substitute for getting the color right during the capture phase. Every videographer has 'screwed up' at some point in his career and knows very well that some blunders can't be properly corrected in post. Some color inaccuracies can be corrected and others can't. They can be made to look better but they still won't be right. I did extensive A/Bs with both the SR12 and the HF10 and there was simply no comparision in the accuracy of colors. The same was true with the hyped contrast that Canon has given the HF10. Their weird gamma causes the HF10 to easily blow out highlights whereas the Sony is much more resistant to that. To force me to 'fix in post' something that most consumer cameras can get right from the start (INCLUDING the Canon HV10 and HV20) is utterly absurd. Fixing anything in the world of HD is time consuming and unnecessary for something like this. And, to boot, there is nothing that can be done for blown highlights. No zebras on the Canon, but you'll give it a pass for that too. Talk about yet another professional feature that's missing on the Canon and present on the Sony. Tell me how you accurately adjust your exposure Steve without zebras? Again my friend, a little objectivity please.

Hmm, interesting, the Sony's higher resolution, larger LCD can't be seen in bright light but the Canon can? C'mon Steve, you need to try a little objectivity. It's interesting that you give the Canon yet another pass for not even having a viewfinder. Talk about not having something ANY camcorder should have. Yikes! Oh, and try to make adjustments with the Canon and not shake THAT camera! The fact is Steve that BOTH cameras will shake when you do this. It's really a bit silly to point the finger at just the Sony.

As I said Steve, I haven't seen these problems to nearly the degree you seem to think they will happen. You've drawn your conclusions before you pressed the 'record' button. Once again we sit here and ask "why did this guy get a Sony when there's not much he likes about it. A camera like this (the Canon OR the Sony) should be able to produce excellent video by simply hitting record. The fact is that cams like these are used for events that happen quickly and are not often repeated, spur of the moment happenings. They are used where one does not have the time to go through many manual adjustments. In this area the Sony simply does better than the Canon in capturing those 'once in a lifetime events' when one simply doesn't have the time to worry about the color or the exposure for which the Canon needs to be babied.

You see Steve I have both Canon and Sony...I've got no grudge against either company and I have both of their HD cameras. I tried both the HF10 and SR12 and found the SR12 simply produced superior video that didn't need to be 'fixed in post'. Would I like more manual controls and dedicated buttons on the Sony? Sure. But the Sony for me is the best of the current crop, producing what to my eyes looks like the most accurate color and best dynamic range.

This is a wee bit of an exaggeration Steve. There ARE plenty of manual controls on the Sony including zebras and bias controls lacking on the Canon, get over it already! Your beloved Canon has no zebras and no viewfinder. Last time I looked these were found on virtually every prosumer cam I've ever seen. As you would say "Sony used them so certainly Canon could have....why not?" It cuts both ways when you show some degree of objectivity my friend.

The other thing that seems to elude you is that videography and photography express their art in composition...not just the presence or absence of computer controls. All the manual controls in the world won't get you the proper composition Steve. Give me the guy that knows what he's doing and I'll give him a 'dumb camera' like the Sony and he'll constantly produce superior results to the guy with all the manual controls in the world but no sense of art.

But there you are buying the Sony to 'objectively' test it. Okeedokey. I'll make the same prediction I made with the other guy who 'objectively' tested it. :)

Basically you are saying that somehow a $1,000 Sony consumer camcorder is so smart and well designed that it eliminates the need for manual controls. (Zebra doesn't control anything!) And, you are saying your one day test PROVES your claims.

You may be 100% correct, but you are asking folks to believe that somehow Sony has repealed the laws of optics and that somehow Sony's shutter doesn't work like any other cameras shutter. Or, put another way, you are asking me to reject what I know about how cameras work by saying YOU don't see any problems. And, you are saying your one day test PROVES your claim. You've got to know that subjective tests test the viewer more than they do a camera.

You seem unwilling to assume that had you used both cameras for a month AND really learned HOW to use the Canon you might have come to a very different conclusion. You made your decision in a few hours in a very limited set of conditions, posted a review, and now defend it. You made no tests of 24p or 30p (because you don't like how they look) and dismissed Cine gamma even though every posted pix shows it to look better. You didn't even consider that Canon was aiming for a look with deeper shadows and reduced highlights because many folks believe it looks more like film. I may not like that look either, but when I review a camera I do so in the context that other folks want/need different looks.

Bottom-line you didn't review the camcorders. You compared camcorders only based upon what YOU need and HOW YOU want to work and the LOOK you want. That's not a review. It takes a month of experience to write a professional review of one camera. Several months to compare two cameras. That's why pro reviewers get paid for their reviews. It requires the objectivity you casually dismiss as a waste of time.

I'm not biased in favor of the Canon as you claim. How could I be as I've not used it yet? I only mentioned the Canon to prove Sony had a choice. Size and cost did not force Sony to not put in manual controls. I fully expect I'll have a long list of stupid Canon issues -- like no VF. And, I'm not biased against the Sony either.

Why not relax and let someone share their take on a camcorder even if it conflicts with your opinions?

PS1: I shot indoors with sun coming in windows and blue skylight coming from other windows. A classic MIXED light situation. The Sony AWB was NOT accurate. (It was too blue) Only One-touch was. This is exactly what I predicted in my previous post. So already I know I can't trust AWB and I know a three deep menu system is going to be a bitch to use in the field.

PS2: The AF seems as good as the V1/FX7 and if this proves the case, that is a huge PLUS for the Sony.

PS3: Why would Sony put OPTIONS only on the screen. If you turn-off Display, you can't get to the Options. And, why not have only one OPTION menu -- in Movie Mode -- come-up with six most used in-field functions: Focus, Spot Focus, Exposure, Spot Exposure, WB, and SLO-Mo. There should be ONE toolbox under the Home menu. This is a major departure from the excellent menu systems in other Sony cams.

PS4: Now matter how accurate the exposure and WB, every clip needs to be CC to make them match other. That's why CC is such a big part of production. Just like EQing and mixing audio.

I suspect that Sony may have done a good market research on the target buyers of their consumer cams. The findings may have indicated most of their prospective buyers i.e. soccer moms, parents of kindergarten kids, students on school breaks etc. couldn't care less about strobing, constant changes in exposure or depth of field or slightly soft images because of lens diffraction. Or they may simply have not seen them in their videos.

A good business decision therefore was obvious, making svelt-looking camcorders void of unsightly control knobs or buttons, shifting exposure be damned!

Some questions remain, though. If the majority of casual users value simplicity of use above all else, why companies like Canon, Panasonic, JVC, Sanyo and the rest keep offering consumer cameras with physical controls on similar sized bodies e.g. Canon HF10, HF100, HV20, HV30 or most Panasonic and JVC models. Could it be that their target users are more knowledgeable or they have just done a poor research?

Wacharapong

When did they remove the zebras from the Canon? My HV10 has them...

What a wonderful question! I think you got at the point I'm struggling with. Despite my beating-up on Sony, Ken is right, I really don't care about these issues MOST of the time.

But, Sony does include other features like Spot Exposure and Focus that seem to indicate they DO think their customers want to take control. Why not shutter-speed?

Remember in one of my first posts I speculated they may use a Program to control exposure. Here's how they work. They start at 1/60th second, and as light increases they DON'T change the iris. They gradually change exposure TIME. When the TIME gets to some value -- typically 1/250th or 1/500th -- they decrease Iris 1-stop, and reset time to 1/60th. This, process repeats until they get to 1/250th or 1/500th at f/8. This gets them about a 9-stop range.

Note how this makes f/8 the last resort. Ken may have never shot in bright sun on top of a mountain with new snow.

When you lock the shutter at some value -- you restrict control to just the iris. Because the iris is mechanical, it is far less accurate than adjusting exposure time. So, to support rapid and accurate exposure -- Sony doesn't allow locking the exposure.

One solution is to offer a mode where the limit is 1/125th. This can be used in conjunction with a Program starting at 1/30th. I wish Sony had provided this mode just like the SLOW SHUTTER Mode.

A work-around is to find one of the special modes. For example, SPORTS biases speed to to 1/250th. Perhaps, there is a mode, that biases speed down.

Another is to add an ND filter. Of course, you need to carry several ND filters. :)

PS: I notice there is no flicker filter option.

Of course, Canon, Panasonic, and JVC have also done marketing research. I wouldn't say they have done it poorly, just differently, with perhaps a different goal in mind.

All manufacturers try to differentiate their products, and having designed products for various companies (not cameras) their feature choices usually reflect both the marketing research as well as their own values. Of course, cost matters, so features get traded off against each other for a given price point.

For example, Sony has decided to eliminate some manual features and instead put the money into something else, perhaps build quality, which most people seem to think is better on the Sony

For the buyer in the consumer camera class, this all usually means that no one camera has every feature they might want, so you weigh them and pick the combination that works best for you.

What's important here is that different photographers/videographers value different characteristics and features. That's why Sony, JVC, Panasonic, Canon (and others) can all successfully sell cameras. If one particular model was right for everyone, the others would all go out of business really fast, which they haven't.

A couple times when I was on vacation with my family I brought along my FX-1. My wife asked what (on earth) all those buttons and knobs on the camera were for. Didn't know what to say so I told her that believe it or not, these buttons and knobs just made my shooting easier, which they really did. I also told her I could have brought "the small one" (HC-1) but that would have made my life very hard with all the poking and squinting at the screen just to get some decently shot video. I could have gone full auto on THE SMALL ONE but then again this was just as easy to do on THE LARGER ONE.

How do you guys normally manage this?

Best
Wacharapong

I didn't say that Steve. What I did say was the zebras give you the means to correct the tendency to over-expose as in the Canon. The other thing I'm saying is that I would still prefer a camera with less manual controls that produces a better picture than one with more manual controls. Additionally, I'll prefer the camera that can be corrected in post as opposed to one that at times will get the color so wrong, you'll never get the color quite right.

Again I didn't say that. Please read above. As for subjective tests, I had the camera for more than one day and during that time it didn't take a whole lot of analysis to see that colors are wrong. We all know what the color of a sky is (not magenta). We all know the color of objects we encounter every day and when those objects aren't depicted properly. We also know when highlights are clipped. There isn't a whole lot of subjective analysis required Steve. No camera should force its user to TRY to correct these issues in post. Nope, I'll take the camera that does these basics better and yet still provides me with adequate manual control as well as some controls missing in the cam that doesn't do as well IMO.

You forget the fact that I have the HV20 don't you? Same controls Steve. I am very very familiar with the camera and its controls. You are correct however that I don't like the look of 24p or 30p. Just as you complain about the 'strobing' of the Sony in bright light, so I complain about the stuttering in 24p or 30p. There's no way around that my friend. You have your preferences and I have mine. Yes, I don't like the look of cine and I tend not to like the look of any videocamera that's 'pretending' to look like film. I've yet to see one that can do it anywhere near convincingly. Hopefully you're not now telling me what to like and not to like. You've already told people what controls they 'need' and don't 'need'.

Golly, I must have missed the part where I claimed I was a professional reviewer! Steve, your going from silly to absurd. ANY reviewer has biases...yes, even professionals! Shocked? You shouldn't be. Humans, all humans have biases and those often leak into what is supposed to be 'objective' analysis. It happens in the news and it happens in reviews. But hey Steve, you seem to have come up with your 'review' on the Sony before you even hit the RECORD BUTTON!!!! Now that's pretty funny!!

Since everything you've said about the Sony is negative and everything referenced about the Canon is positive, I think it's safe to assume you are biased my friend. I've got a more legitamite right to make comparision since I at least owned both. I still OWN a Canon HV20 subsequent to having traded from a Canon HV10. I now own the SR12 too. I simply keep the cam that produces the best picture to my eyes. And you seem to forget Steve that I often use the phrase "IMO". That means "In my opinion".

As I've said several times before, you knew this but still went ahead and 'bought' the camera. Why?

Every camera maker makes decision that anyone can quibble with. No camera is perfect Steve. Why did Canon leave out a viewfinder? I've read many people saying they would never touch the Canon or any cam that lacked a viewfinder. You complain about this and that with the Sony in the field, tell me how you'll use a camera with NO options for anything but an LCD??

As I've contended before, the Sony will need far far far less color correction in post than will the Canon. Even in post there will be times (more times than the Sony) that you will simply be unable to adequately correct the Canon.

Again, I'll choose the camera with less manual controls (but still possessing some missing in the other camera) that produces a better, more accurate picture than the one with more controls. And yes, that's my opinion. To answer your question in your last post Steve, no, I haven't shot on top of a mountain with freshly fallen snow. But I have shot at the beach during an air show and saw no softening or any other lens anomolies. Just clean, razor sharp video.

The caution flag is out -- drivers are advised to ease up and proceed with care.

Let's not get personal, folks. Please keep it technical. Debate the idea, not the individual.

Thanks in advance,

Unfortunately the Canon VIXIA HF100 and HF10 flash memory cameras do not have zebras.

Really the debate is between...

A. a camera with a lot of artificial intelligence that seems to do a pretty good overall job, getting colors correct under most circumstances but allowing options to adjust, getting exposure correct with good lattitude and options to allow adjustment, and fairly reliable focus, with options to allow adjustment...

B. a camera with more manual tweaks, that also does a pretty good overall job, but colors are a bit "off" (I owned an HV20 for plenty long enough to decide I did not like the rendition of certain colors, particularly reds and certain greens, blues and purples... and others report the same "opinion"), getting exposure correct, but requiring alternate modes to do it well, and missing some key indicators (zebras), and spot on iAF with limited access to adjustment...


I find that a cam that gets a more accurate, clean, usable shot that I can almost leave alone in post or alter as I wish makes the most sense to me. I've found that with the SR11, I don't feel the "need" to try to make the footage look right in post - and that's a strange feeling when one is used to having to "tinker" to get the video to look like what you THOUGHT you shot... I hope that makes sense - it's the best explanation I can come up with.

If I WANTED a color shift, I can do that in post, if I want to blow out the footage, I can do that in post, focus... well, that's got to be right, and a bigger screen and a VF help to be sure that is OK while shooting.



Perhaps the REAL debate here is over how much "fix it in post" is required by a given camera...

I think what the guys who have shot with the SR11/12 are saying is that it just requires less tweaking to look great - images are clean, sharp, and look accurate - hard to argue with THAT. I think all of us would jump at a camera with comparable IQ and a few manual features added in... but that's not how it comes out of the box, so we accept the "limitations" along with the RESULTS. That's how it is with technology.

Maybe next year Sony will grace us by unlocking a few more features the way they did with the HC9... And I would be shocked if there were not a couple more new product announcements - there's no way Sony is going to let Panasonic steal all the thunder with the 150... IMO anyway.

Dave, I agree 100%. I think another key issue worth repeating is that this cam will be used in many 'spur of the moment' shots when we don't have the time to tinker with shutter speeds, lens opening, white balance etc. It's those shots that you must take in an instant or lose them forever. This is the area that the Sony excels.

When I do a shoot professionally, I have the luxury of time in setting everything right. Such is not the case when we use these cams for 'fun'. As you say, I want the option of doing what I want in post, not the necessity.

I think this is at least part of the point. Does one criticize the materials used in an oil painting? The brushes? The canvas? NO, one looks at the end result. Does one look at a classic movie and say it must not be good because it was shot with old outdated technology? Does the Beatles stuff done on a 4 track become invalid because it wasn't done on a 48 track digital workstation?


It's far too easy to get caught up in the tools and specs and so on and forget that the ultimate question is "did you get that shot"? If you have a small camera of satisfactory quality and captured the moment vs. not getting it because your big camera with lots of buttons was too much trouble to drag along... Are you going to sit there and critique the shot because the camera wasn't quite "perfect"... or be glad you captured the moment?

Sure, if you're talking "serious" productions, these li'l guys might be a bit short on features for some things... but it's the operator, not the camera, and these are amazing little tools for the $.

Just like when word processing became "common" and EVERYONE could be an author... you'll get both good results and drek depending on the nut behind the lens! Some of those results will be for no more than the amusement of family and friends, others shared over the web for 15 seconds of fame, and who knows, maybe some will lead to something much more.

I think you are forgetting four things that seem obvious to me:

1) I did NOT BUY the SR11. I have it from Costco for 90-days. If they had the Canon in stock, I would have brought it home first. So quit asking why I bought something and then criticize it.

2) One can tell a lot about a camera LONG before shooting with it. I already know the Sony menu system is a mess. I don't need to walk around in 100-degree heat to figure this-out! And, I build a list of tests to perform BEFORE I go outside and shoot. Given the heat and dust storms right now in LV -- I may not shoot for a week. So what?

3) I have already said that if I had the Canon -- at this point in the process I might have a longer list of "problems." Quit attacking me because I have different views than you.

4) AUTO Image quality is NOT the most important thing in the world. IMHO, what's important is the best image quality a skilled shooter can get using the controls provided by the camera.

Or, for the person who MUST shoot in 24p, the camera that delivers the best quality in 24p. Pushing 60i quality is of no value to them.

Or, the camera with the best ergonomics. I already feel the SR11 strap -- which is too low -- cutting into my hand. I already find my thumb not resting on the trigger-button. I already realize the zoom control not falling under my fingers. A camera that feels lousy doesn't get used. (And, don't bother telling me the Canon is even worse. I'll deal with the Canon when I have it in hand.)

I know folks who bought the lesser known JVC HD7 because they could shoot weddings with a "pro" looking camcorder. They can't show-up with the same camera the bride's father has. These shooters know that 99% of those who view the wedding DVD videos will find the video shot in HD with ANY camera to look great. They know the key is what they can say in the sales pitch. THREE CCDS sound better than ONE CMOS.

In the end -- I may not keep either one. I may feel the better VALUE is the Pana AG-HNC150. Or, maybe I'll wait until SD card prices fall. Walmart had 4GB (1 hour) cards for $60. When the price falls to $20 -- I can use cards just like tape. At this point HD-based camcorders make no sense TO ME.

Sure that's important, but a skilled shooter isn't who the camera is made for, so it should come as no surprise if those controls aren't there (or are there only partially). These camcorders are designed to produce the best possible image quality in the hands of an *unskilled* shooter -- that's the target market for this kind of camera. In other words, I don't think a skilled shooter should realistically expect to find much in terms of available controls on something like this.

Steve, ergonomics is related to how the equipment fits THAT person...not every person. For me the strap doesn't cut, the zoom does fall properly under my fingers and my finger easily reaches the trigger button. All hands are not the same size and ergonomic principles dictate that you design to a certain percentage of the population. This means that those that fall beyond this curve will not achieve the ideal results. There's nothing that can be done about this in a cam of this size or any size for that matter.

Being very experienced in the proper use of higher end video cameras, I continue to disagree about a cam like this and its typical use. Even for me, an experienced videographer, I demand a camera that responds instantly for the type of use (totally different than business use) that a 'fun cam' generally sees. For the spur of the moment shot that can't be repeated (which is far more typical in leisure use than business use where retakes can generally be made), there's no substitute for superior automatic performance. But yes, I do agree I would appreciate more manual control. But I also love the 'bias' controls the Sony offers that others don't.

Let's face it, the HF series isn't designed for professional or skilled use either. None of these consumer cams are and their imaging devices prove that. Additionally, there's a sacrifice to be made for their size, be it the lack of a viewfinder, zebras, shutter speed, aperture etc. If I wanted more of a professional acquisition unit I'd have to go to a much larger camera which I choose not to do. Again, these are fun cameras and not much more...of course they also happen to take remarkably good HD video and for that we should all be happy.

Canon is aiming at the same consumer audience. In fact, given they are hundreds of dollars cheaper and are advertising everywhere -- I think its safe to assume they have Sony squarely in their sights. So both are "consumer" camcorders. Both target the *unskilled* shooter.

The difference is that Canon, like JVC, has CHOSEN to add the controls that enable a photographer to get EXTRA quality by using these controls. (Alternately, prevent quality LOSS in certain situations.) Given that all these cameras offer an EZ mode -- how can grandma be hurt by a menu that also offers shutter-speed control?

And, being completely missed is my explanation of why Sony may not support shutter control. It may have nothing to do with marketing as everyone ASSUMES and everything to do with patents. Canon has a patent on an iris that incorporates an ND filter. See pix. This allows one to to set the shutter-speed and allow the iris/ND system to have full control of the exposure.

Also being missed -- the validity of the claim that the Sony produces better pix than the Canon. How valid is this claim? I'm not going to assume a few days of testing by one person casts Canon into a DO NOT BUY hell. Nor, should anyone else.

Or, more importantly, as I said in my last post -- even if the Sony is "better" in full AUTO -- does this override every other issue? NO. It can't. For the shooter who wants progressive -- it's irrelevant. For the shooter who wants to use SD cards -- it's irrelevant.

Here's another consideration that rules-out BOTH camcorders -- the total lack of LANC. Or, the lack of native AVCHD editing. That's a big one for those of use who use laptops!

I really see no value to this debate about "marketing." Nor, participating in someone's constant attempts to defend the camcorder they bought. If I say I don't like X I can expect an immediate -- I like X. It's a waste of my time.

I'll report what I find on both camcorders as that will be of most value to those who -- like me -- have not yet bought either. And, I wouldn't be at all surprised if I feel it's best to wait for the next generation.

Steve, putting the image quality issues aside for a minute, could the absence of a toggle knob or 4-way physical control on the Sony cams be due to someone else's patents too? I'm wondering because in field use, the menu system, even if it's one layer deep, is so impractical. Real newbies would love to just forget about accessing its functions and hit the full auto easy button.

Wacharapong

I would agree that Canon has certain manual controls to add 'extra' quality RELATIVE TO that camera's fully automatic quality. However, what I found, was that even with this 'extra' quality, it still didn't equal the 'fully auto' quality of the Sony. There was no way for me to avoid the odd colors that often popped up on the Canon. Whether I used one of the presets or MWB, the odd colors just changed their 'oddness' rather than becoming normal. Thus I didn't find the manual WB controls to add much. Additionally, in trying to overcome the Canon's tendency to overblow highlights, the lack of zebras made it nearly impossible to accurately couteract this tendency even with manual control of shutter & aperture. You're shooting blind. In fact, for a camera of this type, I find Sony's implementation of exposure 'bias' as well as their very clever implentation of several manual controls on the front-mounted dial, to be more useful than the manual control of aperture and shutter speed in the Canon...but that's just MO.

I've almost found it amusing reading the number of 'work-arounds' I've seen from some users to get correct colors or exposure from these units. That's a real 'no no' IMO for a consumer camera.

I also can't overemphasize the importance of getting 'auto mode' right in a camera of this type. I explained several times before that 'spur of the moment' shooting is more common for a consumer camera's application with many people. In this regard Sony does the better job IMO.

As to the insinuation of 'constantly defending the camcorder one bought', that's pretty silly when I for one tested both units under identical conditions, at the same time and shooting the same scenes side by side. I had the opportunity to keep either...in fact it would have been cheaper for me to keep the Canon. I showed the results to another friend who happens to shoot professionally and he came to the same conclusion as I. As an aside, he currently owns two Canon HDV units and as a result of what he saw now owns an SR12. One has no need to 'defend' a purchase when a camera is intelligently tested under those conditions. Some people mistake 'defending' for 'explaining' why a person found one camera to be superior to another. Obviously if you 'need' or 'want' 24p or 30p capability, there is only one choice. If you don't, there are several.

I have always encouraged people to try both in rigid A/B comparisons. Shooting the same scene at the same time with both cameras is the only true test. I am not the only one that came to this conclusion after doing so. :)

Steve the SR11/12 do have LANC accessed via the A/V terminal. The new Sony tripods with the AV designation have these controls as do all the housings for underwater use. These new controllers have a nice feature that opens up the guide bars for leveling etc, can set the zoom to a fixed slow position as well as variable 8 speed and photo button. I have the AV60 model for my SR11 and it works great and also works on any of the more recent Sony cams that have the new A/V terminal like the DV HC96 that I also have. The lack of LANC for me was one reason I ruled out the Canon's as most of what I do is on a tripod and I like the control of LANC ( it would be nice if iris was also controllable like the Panasonic !!!!) The auto features are very important if one is shooting kids running around. In this regard the SR11 is great as the face recognition locks very quickly to faces and does a good job of optimizing the picture for the people( why most people buy a camcorder) This feature biases the whole picture to exposing correctly for the faces it sees even assigning more data to encode these faces to get the best picture of the faces for future memories. With all the auto features turned off it becomes a competent consumer camera with limited manual features that are no worse than most but which produces a beautiful picture as long as the light is reasonable and there isn't superfast movement. I can live with that from a $1300Can camera. IF Sony produce a $5000 camera with as good a picture but all the manual controls, higher data rate to solve the fast movement issue, better low light etc I for one will line up.

Ron Evans

Ron, I didn't realize about the LANC control. Good info. And yes, the kids are just another example of what I was referring to by 'spur of the moment' shots. :)

Sony has used a Button and Roller system to control menus in the past. And, there is lots of room for these tiny controls on the SR. (I suspect that Sony thinks someone in a store will think the touchscreen is REALLY cool.) The advantages to the old Sony system are obvious:

In bright light when one can't see the contents of the LCD -- one could still use the VF. With the touchscreen one is screwed.

But worse, the touchscreen approach gave Sony engineers the "freedom"to implement TWO menu systems, each with multiple tabs. Each tab leading to multiple Major menus, which leads to multiple Minor menus, that lead to -- you get the picture. Even computers don't have menus 4-deep menu systems! As you said, "I'm wondering because in field use, the menu system, even if it's one layer deep, is so impractical. Real newbies would love to just forget about accessing its functions and hit the full auto easy button."

And, should you decide to shoot with a clean screen without data displays -- guess what, the button for the most critical menu disappears from view. It's gone!

And all joking aside, the old system didn't require one to touch the screen and smear it up. :)

PS: Ron, the LANC is VERY good news! I've got a Sony pistol grip I bought in Japan years ago. With the grip the SR becomes much like a Super 8 film camera.

This is actually a big problem with the camcorder market. The choice is between consumer grade camcorders with either few or some controls (and the controls they do have are accessed though a joystick or tiny knob), and the pro models which are much heavier and larger, and cost thousands more. The manufacturers have not seen a market for a middle ground. The JVC HD7 could be considered an exception in terms of controls, but its image quality is similar to the consumer models.

On the other hand, with digital sill cameras, there is a very healthy middle ground. You can buy a digital SLR with all the controls you could ever need, a large sensor, and excellent image quality for just a few hundred dollars more than the cost of a high end point-and-shoot or "bridge" camera. The DSLR will be bigger and heavier, but only by a little bit.

Maybe such a middle ground will emerge in the camcorder market (I can hope), but things seem to actually be going the other way.

I agree that the middle ground seems to have disappeared. At one time Sony had the TR900 which had controls that were useful but since then nothing. I had a V801 that had lots of controls, in fact the same sort of lineup as on the current prosumer cams working in the same way for gain, iris, shutter, white balance and that was a single CCD cam which was replaced in the digital era with the TRV50 ( which I have) that cost almost 3 times as much had a nice big 3.5" display but little control!!!! Having used the SR11 for a few months now I would be happy to pay more and get these same manual controls for gain, iris, shutter and white balance with buttons just like on my FX1 and a bigger lens. The rest of the spec could stay as it is now. Maybe later in the year!!!!

Ron Evans

You guys nailed my frustration. All of us have used generations of HANDYCAMS that had full AUTO and Full manual options. I keep wondering why now that we shoot HD -- are there simply no options. That's why I bought an HD7. However, IMHO the future is solid-state. I really want to archeive generic SD cards as the price drops to $20/hour.

Like you -- given inflation -- I would gladly pay $1800 for a camcorder as that about 1/3 the cost of the Z7. Why is that segment gone?

Ron -- how are you connecting your AV tripod to the SR? <<<< ANSWERED. The Sony tripods have an AV plug, not a LANC plug. So, unless Sony sells a LANC-MINPLUG to AV PLUG it's not fair to say the SR supports LANC. Not only because we have no idea what signals are sent from the new tripods, but because all exiting LANC equipment can't be used!

PS: Note the SR has no SPORTS mode. Which supports my view that the EXMOR chips use Integration Time (from 1/60th second, upward) to control exposure. Not marketing to newbies, but technology. When you engage SLWSHUTTER I suspect the EXMOR chips switch to Accumulated Frame mode where it accumulates 2 frames for 1/30th second. This is the system used by the EX1 EXMOR chips.

How right you are Steve. I would imagine that there are a lot of us that feel the same way. Until a few months ago, I was holding out (and saving my money) for the FX7. After they stopped producing them, the price shot way up out of my reach, killing that dream (didn't want to consider a refurbished unit). I even considered the Canon A1, but it was about $750 more than I wanted to spend. So I began to wait and see if Sony was coming out with a replacement. I could only wait so long as summer was approaching, numerous opportunities were calling (I shoot railroads and western scenery), and I had already delayed two summers of not shooting HD; I was getting very impatient. When nothing appeared on the horizon from Sony, I resigned myself to getting the SR11.

Now, don't get me wrong, I like the SR11. But I would rather have something more in line of a prosumer cam, with more controls. Especially since my friend is shooting with an FX7, and can control what the cam records to a greater degree than I can with the SR11. While most of the time the SR11 performs as well as the FX7, there have been a couple of instances when he was able to adjust to a shooting situation, whereas I could not.

Is there an FX11 on the horizon? Doesn't seem like it. So I will have to do the best I can with what I've got. While it is true that the shooter makes a large difference in the quality of the shot, it can be improved greatly when he has the correct tools at the outset.

Respectfully,
Mike

I must confess I don't understand Sony pricing. $6000 for a Z7 prosumer HDV camcorder? $10,000 for the Z270 that replaces the DSR-250 that was about $6000.

Then a super pro EX1 at only $8000.

The Z7 should be $4500 and the S270 $6500.

There a HUGE gap from the $1000 SR and the FX7 at $3500. I don't want an EXMOR FX7 for $4000. Too big! I want an SR with manual controls for $1800-$2000. But, I don't think we'll get it as Sony has been removing more manual controls every year.

My only Sony hope -- an EXMOR based A1 with a 3-inch LCD. Would love a SD card only unit.

All Canon has to do is offer an "HF20" that has a viewfinder, zebra, and LANC. And, return to Canon's past image quality. (Although without XMOR, low-light performance may never match Sony again.) They could double the price of the HF10 and it would be perfectly priced.

Are we really in the minority? Every time a review is posted everyone screams about the lack of controls. The JVC HD7 has a huge following primarily because of non-menu shooting controls. Perhaps we aren't such a tiny group!

Steve as far as I am aware LANC is a protocol not a plug. Sony in fact say LANC accessed via the A/V plug. In fact early on LANC was on a DIN plug on my Sony Super VHS deck I had an adapter for Din to 1/8" or 1/4" plug too. There are several posts around extracting LANC from the A/V terminal. It seems to have been changed to the 1/8" plug around the time of Hi8 deck introduction. The Fast Video Machine editor I had came with cables for DIN Sony and DIN Panasonic and I had adapters to go to 1/8"

Ron Evans

Same with Canon, they jump from the $1000 HV30 to the $3600 XH A1.

And then there's RED...stay tuned.

RED's Scarlet will sell for $3K, still leaving the $1K to $3K bracket wide open.

That's true Chris, but it seems the level of performance will be unprecedented. We used to spend this much for much lesser performance. But man, it is one weird looking device!

LANC would be the "software" or communication language - Sony service manuals refer to the pins on the A/V plug as "LANC". The only difference is that you have to activate the interface on the camera - lots of stuff on the A/V jack... but I've tested a number of existing LANC controllers with an adapter, and they work as expected, once the camera is signalled to expect the LANC input there.



It's funny, I think we all are having the same "fantasy camera"... IMO, you need to get bigger glass on the front end for light gathering, but I'm not sure that means you have to go as large as the FX7 (which was a greatly underrated cam, with lots of manual control!). Not much more than a slightly larger form factor, a bit better low light (manual slower shutter speeds), and a couple buttons and a wheel or whatever to adjust the settings... is that SO MUCH to ask???

Sony... are you paying attention? There's a HUGE HUGE HUGE gap between the $1K "consumer" cams, which are amazing for the money and the $4K (realistically the FX7 is gone...) "prosumer" lines.

I believe we should see SOME announcements soon with the CX7 and FX7 due for replacement (the CX7 came late in the year IIRC). MAYBE we'll get an FX9 or 11 or whatever and we can all smile! Right now sony has NOTHING competing with Canon HF series and the panasonic flash cams, and NOTHING competing with the upcoming Panasonic 150/170 and the existing Canon midrange... THAT won't last long... maybe soon we will all be able to drool over the "perfect" cam... until then, I'm pretty happy with the CX7, FX7, and SR11!

I agree Dave that the SR11 produces better pictures that my FX1 in some circumstances ( most if I am honest !!!) The SR11 lacks the control need for difficult light conditions and likely lacks the lens etc for these too. The SR11 also is not as good at capturing fast motion closeup, fast movement across the scene when the image will blur slightly indicating to me that the encoder is having difficulties keeping up with the amount of data generated. When this motion stops the image detail increases back to the lovely depth of colour that the FX1 does not seem able to produce. I would love a camera that either had better controls and lens at a midway price to the FX1 or even a FX1 replacement with the newer technology. I too feel Sony will produce some new products in the near future to compete with the upcoming Panasonic 150. Should be a good Christmas!!!!

Ron Evans

On this site?

I would think you would have a very hard time buying an AV plug from Sony.

Yes -- i started with DIN and the came the mini-plug. My pistol-grip is a miniplug.