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-   -   AVCHD Z2/DVX rumors? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/avchd-format-discussion/68672-avchd-z2-dvx-rumors.html)

John Trent June 1st, 2006 03:26 PM

AVCHD Z2/DVX rumors?
 
I'm really surprised AVCHD hasn't gotten more attention and excitement. It's said not to have the artifact problems of HDV,1080 24P is supported, and it records to mini DVD or SD memory cards - not expen$ive P2 cards.

So, does anybody know of any rumors when we'll see a AVCHD Z2 or DVX? I asked Jan from Panasonic and got ignored. It used to be, you could find good accurate information when some new camera was coming. I remember leaks from Japan, someone knowing someone who works for Sony, or confidential asides from "someone in the know". Good upcoming camera info doesn't seem to happen anymore. They just appear. Prove me wrong.

Tim Goldman June 1st, 2006 04:42 PM

just google avchd, theres information out there.

Bob Zimmerman June 2nd, 2006 03:42 AM

they are just trying to sell their old stock.

Bob Zimmerman June 5th, 2006 07:23 AM

so after reading about this do you think this well be more of a consumer type thing? More for Handycams?

Also any idea's when it might hit the market.

John Trent June 5th, 2006 11:51 AM

A google search turned up nothing I hadn't read in the initial press releases at Camcorderinfo. Sony has something in development and Panasonic says late this year, early next year, neither company mentioning what kind of models.

I've been asking about rendering times of DVFilmmaker on PAL Sony HDV footage on the forums and I can't get a straight answer, so I guess asking about something like this is completely pointless.

Dale Connelly June 5th, 2006 07:59 PM

I'm not really excited about this. I don't see what the big deal is except for consumers who don't want to edit.

1. Isn't this a format that is a stop-gap measure to provide a product for those that like the convenience of direct to disc recording and HD at the same time, with a result for consumer camcorders?

2. I know this h.264 an "efficient" codec, but the bit rate is slower than HDV. Despite this, why do some of you love this codec so much? Does it carry more color information at 1080 lines? For example, is it better than HDV 1080 at 60i for someone who could care less about seeing flickering and chopped up motion to simulate film? Are you guys electronic engineers so you can analyze bit rates of codecs? Where do you get the idea that this is better than HDV?

Please help me out. I can't see the emporer's clothes. Please provide the source for your conclusion that this is better.

Bob Zimmerman June 5th, 2006 08:55 PM

Probably more of a Best Buy model, but you never know. Why couldn't you edit with it?

Dale Connelly June 5th, 2006 09:13 PM

You can edit this. This is just intended for direct to disk recording, which has a convenience factor of being able to take out the DVD disk and putting it straight into the ______ HD player if it can handle it.

David Tamés June 6th, 2006 04:56 AM

F.y.i.
 
Panasonic Press Release of AVCHD Basic Specs (Dated May 11, 1006):
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs...02006070009078

Panasonic Press Release of AVCHD onto SD cards (Dated May 11, 1006):
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs...02006065257150

The first press release provides the details of the basic spec, " The format employs MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 codec for video compression, and Dolby Digital (AC-3) or Linear PCM for audio codec ..." and the second press release states that Panasonic "has begun developing technology to record digital HD (high-definition) images onto SD Memory Cards, following the AVCHD standard for HD digital video cameras" these product development cycles take at least a year or so, and if multiple partners are involved... a little longer.

Boyd Ostroff June 6th, 2006 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Tames
Panasonic Press Release of AVCHD Basic Specs (Dated May 11, 1006)

Wow, Panasonic invented AVCHD 1,000 years ago! ;-)

Mark Kubat June 6th, 2006 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff
Wow, Panasonic invented AVCHD 1,000 years ago! ;-)

Ya, I wonder what Da Vinci that about THAT!

J. Stephen McDonald June 6th, 2006 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff
Wow, Panasonic invented AVCHD 1,000 years ago! ;-)

The extra 1,000 years it took to develop such things was largely due to the repression of Science by those protecting their power in other areas.

David Tamés June 7th, 2006 05:47 AM

Those fat fingers are good for a laugh now and then.

Paulo Teixeira June 7th, 2006 11:04 PM

A lot of the stuff that’s been mentioned about the AVCHD format can be found here:
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=67127

As you all know AVCHD will replace the HDV standard in consumer HD camcorders by Sony and I bet it will definitely be on the successors to the Z1u/FX1 camcorders. This is also the format that Panasonic will use in all of their camcorders from now on. So expect to see a DVX100 type camcorder by possibly the end of this year.

Also if I’m correct that this format will blow away the HDV format than expect to see it on professional camcorders before it makes it way to consumer camcorders because it wouldn’t be a good idea to see a consumer camcorder with a better compression than a professional camcorder.

Dale Connelly June 8th, 2006 05:59 AM

How did you conclude that this will blow HDV away?

Bob Zimmerman June 8th, 2006 09:36 AM

I like the idea of a DVX 100 or a Sony Z1 or maybe a Canon GL3 with a tape drive SD and then a place to slide in a disc for HD. Plus it would all be 16:9.

This could mean I'm waiting longer!!

Paulo Teixeira June 8th, 2006 12:43 PM

Dale Connelly,

If it means anything Panasonic prefers this format over HDV; that’s why they never used HDV. Also Sony is definitely replacing HDV with the AVCHD codec. As we all know HDV has a lot of bugs for example skipping frames every 20 to 50 minutes, and not to mention the codec has a hard time keeping the full resolution during fast passed action. This is why Sony uses 35MBPS MPEG2 on their XD CAM HD camera. Both Sony and Panasonic couldn’t stand the HDV codec so they decided to develop a codec that’s a lot more sufficient.

If you were to take an HDV file and convert it to 10 MBPS using H.264 compression you would see the picture quality looks almost identical to the original and the average person wouldn’t notice a difference. You should try this because I have and I believe you will be amazed. Just imagine the picture quality of a file being recorded straight to 18 MBPS using H.264/AVC compression.

I can go on and on about why I know this format is replacing the HDV format but it will take a while. You can read some of the posts by Barry Green that does an extremely good job explaining the advantages of H.264 over HDV.

Right now JVC and Canon needs to have a newer codec as well if they want to compete against Sony and Panasonic.

Bob Zimmerman June 9th, 2006 09:04 AM

so I guess this could be the end of HDV. What about miniDV? I guess we will see Canon and Panasonic still making XL2's and DVX 100's for awhile. HD being the norm is still a few years away.

Mike Tesh June 14th, 2006 05:07 PM

Does anyone know if the playstation 3 will support this format?

Paulo Teixeira June 16th, 2006 11:09 AM

Their have been talk of both AVCHD and Blue Ray coexisting with each other and since it shares the same compression format, it should be able to play in a Blue Ray PlayStation 3 even thou it’s a different disk.

I can just imagine the possibilities. Since a lot of people will own the PS3 when it comes out it will be very easy to finally share your HD content.

Jack Zhang July 2nd, 2006 03:32 PM

The Z2 might not even use a tape or disc or crappy p2 card. It might use an HDD.

Plus the benefits of the pro version of AVCHD also means probable 1080p60 capture.

Wayne Morellini July 2nd, 2006 09:42 PM

AVCHD is really consumer/prosumer. The pro version of is the 50mb/s intra frame h264 Panasonic announced at Nab, and even then 100Mb/s 10 bit 4:4:4 would have been better choice for pro.

Paulo Teixeira July 2nd, 2006 11:36 PM

Jack Zhang,

Sony is definitely putting a blue ray disc drive into the successor of the Z1u.

I was chosen to attend a private Sony seminar before the first XD CAM came out. The Sony representative sounded very excided when he was talking about how blue ray was going to revolutionize the way we shoot video as well as saying how it will be more reliable than Mini DV.

By reading a lot of posts, I see that a lot of people don’t like the idea of a camcorder recording to Blue Ray disc but at least in the bright side it would definitely keep the price of the media down. Also Blue Ray should be a lot more reliable than standard discs. Hopefully Sony doesn’t use the same ones that are in the XD CAM camcorders because the prices would always stay the same.

Wayne Morellini,

100MBPS 10bits and 4:4:4 sampling. I see that you like to dream a lot. I do the same thing sometimes imagining what my dream camcorder would be like. I’m certain that the successor to the HVX200 will have 50MBPS with the compression standard of MPEG4 but you never know. The picture quality would be unbelievable if Panasonic used 100MBPS.

The rumored 8 core MAC would probably be the only computer that would handle 100MBPS MP4.

Wayne Morellini July 3rd, 2006 03:01 AM

I would suggest you look at the other threads I have been on to find links to broadcast industry H264 spec (for archival, lossless and high bit depth) going into several hundreds of Mb/s. I call 50mb/s there pro level because it is the highest thing they have announced.

Rather than just basing things on dreams, I can say that a true pro level will produce pictures like cineform at 100mb/s, and that there are alternatives to an 8 core mac to work on such a stream, that even a PS3 would probably do it fine (unless those nasty bug claims come true) and future PC/MAC technology would also be able to manage it. Lossless level would be around 200mb/s+ (depending on bit depth and pixel format) I assume.

You, never, say you only want the deal the car man gives you, if you want a better deal. We are finally getting some descent deals, though, the deal I stated would be a bit more useful again.

One thing I would like to see though, is the accuracy of the encoding tables increased to get perfect pixel accuracy. The tables in MINIDV codec, loose some precision, so the picture is not entirely accurate, even if it is simple enough for every pixel to be recorded so. This is one reason you can't do lossless with normal Jpeg/MJpeg codecs don't matter how much bandwidth you use. On lossless codecs they use higher accuracy to ensure a lossless result.

Paulo Teixeira July 3rd, 2006 12:45 PM

Wayne Morellini,

I understand that higher bit rates have been used. I was only mentioning HVX200 size cameras. Like I said, you never know. Nobody expected Panasonic to have the DVCPRO HD codec into a camcorder a little bit bigger than the Panasonic 100 A/B. Hopefully Panasonic releases much bigger size cards.

Now if only Panasonic and Sony would release these MPEG4 camcorders with much higher zoom like 20X for example. This would be good for both consumer and professional models. If Canon can do that with the GL2, then why cant them?

Wayne Morellini July 3rd, 2006 09:26 PM

That's OK Paulo, sorry.

There are just people around that always call something they haven't seen, or don't want to figure out, or can't, dreaming, because they don't know what they are talking about as much as they think. This is a real negative bane on any true creative development process. I prefer to be positive. It is better to get the information, look at it from all possibilities, and make a decision on it's suitability. Experience is not the best indicator of what is possible, rather than seeing how to get around it ;) (i.e experience dictates that a cave can be a home, then why develop anything else?).

Anyway, yes because the Panasonic 50Mb/s is a intra codec, and the 19Mb/s is an inter, I suspect (means I don't know but believe) that apart from 4:2:2 and 10 bits, the image quality will be broadly similar to the 19Mb/s codec in good conditions, but for extreme scene changes and low light noise, I suspect the pro codec will walk over the 19Mb/s inter codec. For PRO, consistent "quality" is important, and the intra also allows for easier editing. I would have preferred a 50Mb/s inter codec for the pro version, or 100Mb/s intra frame.

It is possible to make a handheld DVCPROHD like hard disk camera for $300+. There is at least one chip that will compress a stream at DVCPROHD like rates. I posted a link to a component recording card that uses this chip for around $300 sometime ago in alternative imaging. If you want to put in real development time there are a number of other possibilities. Not dreaming, just good old fashion time, effort, money and intelligence.


Thanks

Wayne.

Lawrence Bansbach July 6th, 2006 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini
AVCHD is really consumer/prosumer. The pro version of is the 50mb/s intra frame h264 Panasonic announced at Nab, and even then 100Mb/s 10 bit 4:4:4 would have been better choice for pro.

I don't think it's certain that Panasonic won't support 100 Mbps. In a sidebar to ("Sony, Panasonic Launch AVCHD", entitled "Is Panasonic Deviating from DVCPRO?," author Craig Johnston states: "This new AVC intraframe codec offers significantly better compression quality than older MPEG-2 codecs, providing DVCPRO HD 100 Mbps quality at half the bandwidth, or better quality at the same data rate [emphasis mine]. . . . According to Phil Livingston, Panasonic's technical liaison, if a new codec offered only a 10 or 20 percent improvement, 'You'd say "no thanks, I'm not interested. It's not enough gain in quality or enough savings in bitrate to derail the train." . . . But when you get to double, i.e. half the data rate or double the quality, now it's worth talking about bringing a new technology to market and suffering the difficulties of explaining why there are both.' " I think it's pretty clear that Panasonic is at least considering 100-Mbps "AVC Intra," which could yield full 1,920 x 1,080, 10-bit encoding, or 4:4:4 or some combination of the three. Whether Panasonic implements it is another matter. I personally think it would be foolish not to. Sure, doubling the recording duration is nice, but with increasing P2 capacities, potential alternative solid-state storage (eg, 64-GB Compact Flash drives), and hard-drive solutions, recording duration will become less of an issue. However, image quality will always be an issue.

Mark Donnell July 6th, 2006 10:01 PM

How about camcorder direct to HD dvd
 
It seems to me likely that at least consumer, and perhaps prosumer, HD camcorders will probably record high bit-rate HD, encode it in AVC at 35 Mbps or less, and output it for direct recording onto Blu-ray or HD DVD. Think about the ease of use for people with little technical knowledge !

Philip Williams July 8th, 2006 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Donnell
It seems to me likely that at least consumer, and perhaps prosumer, HD camcorders will probably record high bit-rate HD, encode it in AVC at 35 Mbps or less, and output it for direct recording onto Blu-ray or HD DVD. Think about the ease of use for people with little technical knowledge !

Yes, I think its established that Sony definitely, and Panasonic I suppose very probably, plan to offer HD consumer cams that record straight to Blu-Ray. The problem right now is of course the lack of Blu-Ray drives in any form factor for a reasonable price. Hence Sony's plan to release AVCHD camcorders with standard DVD recording drives and Panasonic will be going the SD card route. I like Panasonic's approach better in this case. Purchasers of early Sony AVCHD cams will have camcorder envy withing a very short period when the Blu-Ray versions are released, but the Panasonic cams will just gulp down the bigger SD cards as they become available.

Now if these companies would only give us the slightest clue as to product details and/or release dates...

www.philipwilliams.com

Kevin Shaw July 9th, 2006 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Donnell
It seems to me likely that at least consumer, and perhaps prosumer, HD camcorders will probably record high bit-rate HD...and output it for direct recording onto Blu-ray or HD DVD. Think about the ease of use for people with little technical knowledge!

Yep, just like we'll be able to do soon with HDV and XDCAM HD footage, both of which happen to match playback options supported by Blu-ray and HD-DVD players.

AVCHD as currently defined in the Sony press release will not be suitable to replace HDV due to limited recording time per disc, and will probably die a quick death once a better blue-laser recording version is announced. The Panasonic proposal to record AVC onto SD memory cards at 50 Mbps makes much more sense for professional purposes, and will be a useful tool in another year or two once cameras and editing solutions are in place.

Didn't Sony announce the FX1/Z1U cameras at NAB a couple of years ago? If so, next year's NAB sounds like a reasonable time to announce a successor, with cameras shipping at the end of 2007 and in volume the following Spring.

Wayne Morellini July 9th, 2006 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence Bansbach
I don't think it's certain that Panasonic won't support 100 Mbps. In a sidebar to ([url=http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/news/2006.06.28-n_panasonic.shtml].. I think it's pretty clear that Panasonic is at least considering 100-Mbps "AVC Intra," which could yield full 1,920 x 1,080, 10-bit encoding, or 4:4:4 or some combination of the three. Whether Panasonic implements it is another matter. I personally think it would be foolish not to. Sure, doubling the recording duration is nice, but with increasing P2 capacities, potential alternative..


Good find. If this turns out to be true, it explains a few things. It looked a bit strange to claim double DVCPROHD quality at half the bit rate. H264 gets a lot of boost from Inter coding techniques, 4 times increases in Intra sounded a bit ambitious. It also looked a bit suspicious to have the intra so close to the inter rate, and leave a gap above. But still, did I do my calculations of quality with the double increase already built in, I will have to sleep on it. We would need closer to 200Mb/s, for visually lossless tru1080i then.

Wayne Morellini July 9th, 2006 11:02 PM

AVCHD is meant for bluray, probably 8cm or smaller discs. Because of problems with bluray, it is going to DVD first. Perfect for Hard disk though. So, long term pretty good.

AVCHD is an Inter codec, requiring more processing horsepower in your workflow, and less performance when the screen gets busy, compared to 50mb/s Intra. On the consumer side I think the Intra codec will be much less seen for sometime, and AVCHD Inter is a long term prospect, as long as you have it on a sufficient camera with sufficient recording times.

Jack Jenkins July 19th, 2006 09:18 AM

just an idea...
 
I have wondered and thought about this for a while now, but why not have the camera have the ability to compress on the fly in whatever codec and or compression rate you want? Obvious not all codecs/compression rates would work out.

Also to have the ability to add new codecs to the cam might be nice so as codecs evolve you could add more. All it would take is a decent onboard cpu.

Wayne Morellini July 19th, 2006 10:27 AM

Jack

That makes me smile, I doubt it. They could do it with a FPGA, might suck up power a bit faster though. The problem with a processor, is that it is so processor intensive, that even if you get H264 to work, it might not have enough processing power for the next big codec. Even with FPGA, you would have to go for a fairly comprehensive one (or two) and they are expensive, but Sony is the sort of company that could order enough of them to bring down the price. But the truth of the matter is, that if you have multiple formats, you have multiple work flows, a confusing mess, and they may well want to limit customers ability so they buy more expensive models, not extend it.

The Elphel camera does it and their FPGA can be reprogrammed (353 model is coming sometime and is probably preferable, the current has some limitations). If you want this ability, and have the ability to make it happen, the Elphel is the camera to use, with some recording device (like UPC, or Ethernet Hard disk caddy, after you program support for it).


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