Avid's HDV FAQ
 

Q: How will Avid's support for HDV work?
A: In 2005, Avid will provide the industry’s best support for HDV, in both 720p and 1080i varieties, as part of an exceptionally flexible HD workflow.

We begin with native support for HDV. Contrast this with other products that require a time- and disk-consuming render to an intermediate format before editing can even begin, force video and audio files to be handled separately, and manage the entire process with cutlists created in an external application. Instead, Avid Xpress Pro HD will support fully native HDV MPEG media, edited frame-accurately with effects in real time.

Like other digital camera formats that provide outstanding images, HDV is not a format optimized for compositing and animation. Avid DNxHD, on the other hand, is a mastering-quality HD format that is engineered from the ground up for the rigors of post-production, including multi-layer and multi-generation composites, titles and graphic animation, in the same storage and bandwidth as uncompressed SD media. As a result, Avid DNxHD can be combined with HDV in the same timeline, in real time – even for playback on most laptops.

In fact, you’ll be able to mix HDV and DNxHD with a wide variety of formats inside Avid Xpress Pro HD, including DVCPro HD, DV50, DV25, offline film resolutions, uncompressed SD and more – on the same timeline, in real time. That means you’ll be able to use archival footage in new projects, as well as footage acquired from multiple cameras and sources. Instead of being forced into a specific workflow before you’re ready, you’ll be able to make a graceful transition from DV and SD production to HD production. Nobody else will be able to offer an HDV story that’s anywhere near this complete and this flexible.
Look for HDV support as a free upgrade for Avid Xpress Pro HD customers in mid-2005.

Yawn. Other companies are already doing pretty much everything described in this announcement: Pinnacle Liquid Edition can edit native HDV in real time, and Canopus Edius NX / SP can mix and match all sorts of formats on the timeline with real-time editing and real-time HD monitoring output. I don't see anything here that would make me want to wait another six months for Avid to get their act together, but I suppose it's good news that they're still working on support for HDV as the format approaches its second anniversary...

is anyone around who worked with mentioned before hardwae/sofware solutions for HDV?

maybe you can share your opinions, problems etc.

thanks

filip

See the Canopus forums for discussions of their hardware/software HDV editing products:

http://forum.canopus.com

I'm going to be going to an Avid HD / HDV workflow seminar next week. I'll hopefully get some good looks at what I'll be able to do with my Avid system there. I'll post what I can after I get back. I'm going on the 10th. :)

Interesting - Who is running the seminar?

MMG - Midwest Media Group

This was a little about what they said in the flyer for the seminar.

Come see Avid(r) DNxHD(tm) and Ikegami in a collaborative SD and HD workflow environment. Learn how this affordable workflow puts HD within easy reach.

At this seminar, you will discover how Avid DNxHD affords you the freedom to work in HD while utilizing your SD infrastructure, and yet maintains original image quality with 10-bit Avid DNxHD encoding. See how these leading Avid solutions interact with the Ikegami Editcam.

is there ANY words about H-D-V solutions? or just HD - i beleive that most of us are going to find proper solution/workflow to work with HDV not necessary pure HD format.

at least in my "case" i am looking for avid's solution for HDV.

in another words:

GIVE US SOLUTION TO WORK WITH HDV THRU FIREWIRE/1394/ILINK!!!!!!!


filip

Filip,

Avid Xpress Pro (V5) already allows for HD editing, the HDV development is whats set for mid-year. Their website pretty much explains it all www.avid.com

<<<-- Originally posted by Culbert Rench : Come see Avid(r) DNxHD(tm) and Ikegami in a collaborative SD and HD workflow environment. Learn how this affordable workflow puts HD within easy reach.

At this seminar, you will discover how Avid DNxHD affords you the freedom to work in HD while utilizing your SD infrastructure, and yet maintains original image quality with 10-bit Avid DNxHD encoding. See how these leading Avid solutions interact with the Ikegami Editcam. -->>>

Culbert - this very distinct from HDV. No doubt you could edit SD material in a DNxHD system, but it's not generally what we think of as a native HDV solution. It's rather like transfering to Digibeta to edit native DV material which is done in some professional situations, but not really what one would think of as a DV solution.

There is a big difference implied in the term HDV (extremely specific) from mere HD (very general).

BTW I heard at VideoForum (not directly the from Avid reps, I hasten to add) that Avid will be going with a native MPEG2 solution, as opposed to the Avid/Cineform style intermediate codec approach.

<<<-- Originally posted by Richard Alvarez : Filip,

Avid Xpress Pro (V5) already allows for HD editing, the HDV development is whats set for mid-year. Their website pretty much explains it all www.avid.com -->>>

Richard,

thank you for your input, i already know that avid will ship HDV solution later this year, but since my Z1 camera is arriving on monday/tuesday, as you may predict - i'm STARVING to work with HDV in kind of normal way.
i do not want to use it in a strange way - to jump from one solution to another and substitute of this and that...

existing solutions now are similar to polish custom - in poland people may say - "with left hand to the rihgt ear". (which means - if you try to touch with left hand your right ear it will be much more complicated then to touch it with right hand - which is simplest way on earth)

i know about canopus and pinnacle etc. but i do not need to learn (and buy) another one system for editing if i already have avid.

but aivd 5.0 for now is not the solution for HDV. so i cannot stand this situation.

i am using FCp as well - but this is not the place (this thread) to talk about it.

obviously avid hdv solution is not around. for now.
and definitelly until monday/tuesday it will not be around, at least in poland :)


filip

that's the description of the seminar, but they included HDV in the title of the seminar.

"Midwest Media Group, in association with Avid Technology and Ikegami, presents:

Pre-NAB HD & HDV Workflow Tour"

I knew that there would be a lot of HD stuff there, but I'm hoping for some peeks at some HDV as well since they mentioned it in the title. I'll let you all know what info I get my hands on.

I'm willing to wait 5 months though to use Avid. If you think about it, the first HDV camera that came out was a huge story. However, that camera is not really desired by many because it's not quite as functional as what most of are needs are. However, the newer HDV cameras are seeing what is lacking and have put into place some improvements. I see this as sort of what Avid is doing. They see the others working on a HDV editing solution, and while they just sit back and see what's going on, they are creating their masterpiece.

I'm hoping this is true because I have an avid system. :)

<<<I see this as sort of what Avid is doing. They see the others working on a HDV editing solution, and while they just sit back and see what's going on, they are creating their masterpiece. >>>

Yeah, that's the same excuse I keep hearing on behalf of a certain other company which has been slow to respond to the HDV format. But seriously, Avid is now the only major software editing company which doesn't have *any* shipping solution for dealing with HDV, and this well over a year after the format officially became available in the marketplace. It doesn't really matter how good a solution they're developing if you want to buy and use the cameras now, which many people are doing. In this day and age you can't afford to be late to market if you want to be taken seriously...and then when Avid does finally ship their HDV solution they'll have to take more time to work out any bugs.

I think Avid's market is for people like me. Who will wait to enter HDV later, when the bugs and formats have shaken out. Some people are early adapters, some companies are too. Some people get burned being on the bleeding edge, some companies do too. Some people 'steal a march' and get the early worm, some companies do to. It's just a choice of philosophies.

Yeah. I agree Richard. I know that the HDV format will be a great thing, but it's still in its infant stages.

I remember buying a model car that was the first year it was released. It looked like a really cool car, but there were so many problems with it I had to get rid of it and get a proven car.

I'm thinking that Avid will be proven by the time they release HDV support. They will have had enough time to test and two HDV formats to test on too. Since they aren't rushing into the market they aren't going to put out a faulty product just to appease the newly adopted market.

I'll be happy when they release support for it. Until then however, I do use Premiere Pro, but it's nothing like using an Avid system (at least to me).

<<<I'll be happy when they release support for it. Until then however, I do use Premiere Pro, but it's nothing like using an Avid system (at least to me). -->>>

Out of curiosity, can your Avid setup do anything Premiere Pro can't, or is it mainly a question of interface design? What specifically do you like about Avid compared to other editing programs?

With my experience I've been able to do most everything that I can do in Avid in Premiere. The main thing that I like in Avid is the interface. It's very intuitive and so easy to work in. Adobe's is horribly akward for me to use. I love Photoshop... use it everyday, but premiere in my opinion still has a way to go before it can be called "user friendly".

I'm not trying to start anything here for those of you out there that do like Premiere. I mean, I'm able to put out a pretty decent product using it.

However, when Avid releases support for HDV, which as stated in my original post, will have native editing, and no need for a cineform AVI blowup, I will use Avid and never look back. To me the final product if you look at it side by side, the avid one looks better to me.

To me it's like comparing Paint Shop Pro to Photoshop. They both get the job done, but Photoshop does it so much better.

Again, this is only my opinion.

<<<However, when Avid releases support for HDV, which as stated in my original post, will have native editing, and no need for a cineform AVI blowup, I will use Avid and never look back. >>>

But "native" HDV editing is extremely processor intensive and more prone to processing quality losses than an editing codec like Cineform. Hence if Avid does go native with no better codec alternative, it will be a poor choice for HDV work. For HDV it's actually better to convert to something other than the recording format for editing.

Guess we'll see how it looks in a couple of months. Their codec for HD and HDV is a big part of their new lineup.

<<< But "native" HDV editing is extremely processor intensive and more prone to processing quality losses than an editing codec like Cineform. Hence if Avid does go native with no better codec alternative, it will be a poor choice for HDV work. For HDV it's actually better to convert to something other than the recording format for editing. -->>>


Avid is going one step beyond companies like Cineform with their DNxHD codecs. These codecs will be what is used for rendering and outputting of effects and sequences and are of very high quality. For example, their lowest quality HD codec (if you can call it that) DNx145 codec, has a 18 megabyte/sec. data transfer rate. There will be no quality issues with HDV within Avid's new lineup of editors.

J

Sweet... I didn't know that jack. Makes me feel even better about my decision to go with Avid.

<<<Avid is going one step beyond companies like Cineform with their DNxHD codecs. These codecs will be what is used for rendering and outputting of effects and sequences and are of very high quality. For example, their lowest quality HD codec (if you can call it that) DNx145 codec, has a 18 megabyte/sec. data transfer rate. There will be no quality issues with HDV within Avid's new lineup of editors.>>>

Jack: If Avid uses that high a bit rate for HDV editing, they'll be at a competitive disadvantage due to hard drive bandwidth and capacity requirements. (About 65 GB per hour of source footage.) It would make more sense for them to release a lower-bandwidth version for HDV editing, using bit rates similar to Cineform, Canopus and Apple of around 10 MB/sec and up. Heck, if they were going to use their current codecs they should be able to ship their HDV solution now, so there must be something new under development.

I still don't see any indication that Avid is planning to do anything other people haven't already done for supporting HDV editing, so they sure better do a good job of it. I know I won't be waiting around for Avid's solution, since I already have access to a Sony FX1 today.

Jack, Culbert & Kevin:

Higher bit-rate is not always an indication of a superior codec. CineForm spent a lot of time to develop a codec that has a bit-rate suitable for high performance/quality PC editing. Avid didn't seem have the same goals in mind, as they selected DCT compression with a constant bit-rate which I feel is much more suitable for tape transports than PC editing. CineForm uses variable bit-rate wavelet compression, which makes it a more efficient codec at the same quality levels. We haven't yet done a head-to-head comparison with Avid DNxHD, but we hope to soon. I'm sure it is an OK codec; throwing enough bits around to preserve source qualily. However, today only CineForm compression has been proven in a compressed digital immediate workflow with results out to film (read Post Magazine cover story -- http://www.postmagazine.com/post/art...3492&&pageID=1.) It is nice that Avid can only follow us in this regard.

Sorry I posted to this thread, but I had to respond to "...one step beyond companies like CineForm..."

hehe, no need to apologize David. You have an excellent product and it was either cineform or avid for me. I chose Avid because I like their interface better than Adobe's.

Kudos to the cineform codec :o)

Well, you guys were right. I went to the show and it was a demo, but it was a demo of the new Avid HD version. While I did see some nice stuff they didn’t talk about the HDV format.

Here I walk into the room, and I see the new Sony 1080i cam. I’m thinking “yes! They are going to do some demo with that!” During all the breaks and during lunch, all the people are getting up and looking at that cam. I brought my camera just in case they were going to be able to do something cool with it, but I left it in the car. I almost felt like saying “hey guys, I have one of those too. Check out some of the footage I’ve taken from it”, but I didn’t feel like butting in. It was funny… there was a really nice ikegami tapeless cam on a tripod and still all the people were looking at the new Sony cam. They really should have gone more into that since that’s what everyone was really interested in.

So it’s getting near the end of the show and they said “Thanks for coming out” and they never once touched the Sony cam. I was disappointed to say the least. Oh well. I was able to talk with an Avid rep and I asked him when the update to support HDV is coming out and he said that they think it will be sping/summer time. He said to shoot for the end of summer so that way if it doesn’t come in the Spring then I won’t be disappointed. ehhhhhh

sad story - you didn't or anyone asked DURING the show about it?

o man... i know how you feel - all audience was waiting for THAT thing and before any noticed.... well, that's all folks... see you next year...

i will go now to area 51 - maybe some rumors are there...

filip