Sudden inability to capture 24p in Liquid!
 

I had no problems capturing 24p as directed by Stephen's great video.

Suddenly, I went to capture more 24p and the stream is said to be "invalid." The deck control works fine and the TC is correct.

Avid's response is that "we never claimed 24p would work 100%" so finding that it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't is to be expected.

The stream is valid as I can capture in iMovieHD.

It's like Liquid is no longer "auto sensing" the file contents and instead checking it against some expected settings and rejecting it. Until now, the great thing about Liquid is it uses the stream to determine what the format is.

Any ideas?

Something must have changed. What's different between now and when it did work? Double Check your deck settings in the Liquid control panel.

BTW: It still works fine here on the current 7.1 Service Pack and has consistently worked since the 7.0 release.

There are no Control Panel settings for 1394 input. Maybe I'm missing something. Could you do me a big favor and let me know your settings.

My Logging Tool headings are the same as yours.

Both DV and HDV are similar in that the captured data goes directly to the disk file. No codec is used. 30p comes in fine and 24p does not.

Try
Control Panel>Site>System Settings>Input/Output>Video Output IEEE1394>MPEG Output Format.

Is this setting set to ProHD30?

Also, If it was working before and it doesn't now then something changed since it did work. What was that? The latest version of the software is 7.10 Build 3494. SP1 (3581). are you on the service pack version (which I am). This shouldn't matter as much but if something was deleted along the way you should probably reinstall the service pack from Avid just to make sure all of the dll's are in place.

Steve N. I've been trying to follow this since I'm starting to look at Avid Liquid instead of PPro, and this has me a little worried. I hope you don't mind if I ask a question about the "path" you spelled out in Control Panel. The second step, "site." Is that something created when you install Avid, or is it something I would have in my system from something else? I don't find it in my Control Panel right now, but I don't have Avid either (unless you count some old Pinnacle stuff).

Steve K,

The "control panel" is the settings within the Liquid environment. I'm referring to those settings and not the Windows control panel. If/when you get your Liquid setup let me know and I can possibly work you through the process on a project here locally.

Yes.

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System Settings: Inputs/Outputs: Video Input > IEEE 1394 > Selected Device > "Microsoft AV/C Tape Subuniy Device 25Mbps/60 (MPEG)"

IF ANYTHING MIGHT BE WRONG THIS WOULD BE IT.

System Settings: Inputs/Outputs: Video Output > IEEE 1394 > Selected Device > "Microsoft AV/C Tape Subuniy Device 25Mbps/60 (MPEG)"

AND

MPEG Output Format: ProHD/30


System Settings: Inputs/Outputs: Audio Inputs > IEEE 1394 > "Mute if not in PLAY" >>> Off

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Player Settings: Connections tab: "JVC Devices" all set to" Liquid IEEE 1394" except Comm. Port. which is IEEE 1394.

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There is nothing under the Codec Presets under the Native Transfer (M2V)

As soon as I move from the 24p segment on my tape to the 30p segment, the video appears and the Stream-info readout is correct.

Then when I rewind to the 24p segment and click Play, the video disappears and the Stream-info readout says "no valid signal."

But the signal records by iMovieHD.

Note it's the same camcorder, same cabling, same tape, simply two different segments.

By the way, the TimeCode displays perfectly so the 24p is coming via 1394.



-

Have you reinstalled the service pack?


What is different and triggered the change?

Nothing! I had captured a bunch of 24p clips that. like yours, had many sync points. Also captured 30p and the last thing clips, some 4:3 and 16:9 DV.

Decided that I wanted better clips so I delete the old 24p and 30p clips. Yes -- I directly deleted them from the Capture folder, but got no complaint from 7.1 about them going missing.

As I said, I've got 24p and 30p on the same tape. Had no problems capturing, even using In/Out points -- the 30p. Rewound to the SAME 24p material I had captured before, and now no capture. Only Timecode.

Then installed 7.1 SP1. Made no difference.

Avid's keeps reminding me that 24p is not officially supported because -- and I talked to the Germany team -- the FireWire support for 24p and 24F may noy be solid yet. They were not the least surprised that it wasn't 100% reliable.

Do the settings I've posted match yours?

And, what extention does an M2T file need to be so it can be imported into Liquid?

That's the red flag. You can not delete media from within windows. Instead you must delete the media from within Liquid. It runs a database in order to keep track of the media. You've may have (most likely) corrupted the database and a reinstall of the service pack will not fix that.

Welcome to your Liquid learning curve.

Now, go into Liquid's media tab and look at the reels on the left hand side. Now highlight the reel in question and press the delete key. Your reel will be deleted and you can start over with the same reel name if you wish. Liquid's media management is a hard thing to grasp for people who are not aware that it runs a database. Also If I'm reading right, you have mixed formats on the same tape?

There is a Liquid "power" class over in your neck of the woods in November. I will be there as an instructor and would like to meet you. Can you make it to Charlotte in November (1 through 4th)?

Stephen - in traditional Avid products you never have to delete your source clips (even if you delete your media outside of the application) the media database automatically senses a change in the media directory and updates it database file.

Is there any way to get Liquid to refresh its database without deleting your source clips?

PS - it is not surprising that Steve did things the way he did - it's generally how FCP and PPro users tend to delete their media (whereas longtime Avid users would almost always use their Media Management tool)

I deleted both 24p and 30p clips -- so if doing so corrupted the database, it seems odd that 30p still works but 24p does not. But, it IS the only weird thing I did. I sure hope there is a way to reset the database without a reinstal! Or, do I need to reinstall?

That's exactly the way it works BUT you must perform media management within the Liquid environment. Deleting files in Windows is a no no.

Before you go to the trouble, I think you should create a new project and then make an attempt at it while using a different reel name. If it doesn't work then just reinstall. You don't loose anything with a reinstall Steve other than the service packs. The media and render files as well as CG elements will remain in tact even with a complete reinstall.

Stephen can you clarify whether there is any way in Liquid to re-build a corrupt database outside of deleting the source clips or starting a new project? Perhaps like other Avid products you can delete the media database file and it will automatically rebuild it with correct links?

Yes John, you can delete the "Reel" and that will get rid of any record of the media or the tapes existence. If you just delete the media you'll still have the "Reel" name in the media management as well as any timecode values in the associated record. In order to delete the existence of the "reel" you need to enter the media managment and highlight the reel name and then press the delete key. It is the one and only way to get rid of the record.

All reels are available to any project within liquid, so starting a new project does not reset the database at all. Instead it starts the project/render/fuse/timeline codec/aspect/resolution of the project. In our Media Composer Adrenalin machine the media management is very similar but the jargon is different.

Sounds like a jargon problem to me - when you said "delete the reel" I assumed you meant deleting the source clip and timecode values associated with it - thanks for clearing that up. Mind you I'm still not sure exactly what you mean.... perhaps if you change your jargon to refer strictly to source clip and media. Re-reading your post it sounds like the only option Steve has is to delete his source reel, which would in turn delete any chance of redigitising to an existing timeline - am I reading this correctly or do i still not understand?

Of course on all the other MC based products (including Xpress line) deleting the media outside the program does not corrupt the database - instead the database automatically updates the next time you launch Avid, or if Avid is already open, when you highlight the application again. Perhaps that functionality will filter through to Liquid.

No need to filter it through to Liquid because there is a set of routines you can use to "Verify Media" and/or "Diagnose Project" and/or "Refresh Media". Each has a specific function. The "Verify Media" option will search the database for associated media files and if it can not find them then the "!" will populate the picon's upper right corner. Then you must batch digitize the media to regain it. "Diagnose Project" will verify media data integrity and pack the database. "Refresh Media" will refresh the media to the new media that was changed if you "Xsend" the media to an external ap. This also refreshes the Picon views.

In the case at hand, my understanding is the tape was a multiple format tape (ie 24p & 30p on the same reel). This IS a problem because 24p timecode and 30p timecode are handled completely differently in Liquid. 24p is carried in a 59.94 data stream while 30p is carried in a 29.97 datastream. Furthermore, 24p is considered PAL by the system and of course 30p is considered NTSC. This is why it is not good practice to mix formats on the same tape.

I tried it for myself with 30p and 60p on the same tape and got the same result. Once the system saw the NTSC and described the tape as NTSC-DF then the 60p went blank. So, what I gather from this experiment is to not mix formats on the same reel (ie Tape).

OK so one workaround for anybody who has mixed 24P and 30P on the same tape might be the same trick we used to use if the cameraman inadvertanlty put 2 sections of identical timecode on the same reel. Simply change the source tape (or reel) name for the new timecode segment. Would that fix it?

It may but I'm not certain. In that case the media would be the same but the timecode would be duplicated. In this case both media would be different and timecode would be duplicated but it may work just fine.

All we are trying to do is to trick the software into thinking the media came off 2 different tapes. Should work - as to whether you can mix and match 24P and 30P in the same project - that's a question best left to you.

As far as the TC being different -- both "24p" and "30p" timecodes are being displayed correctly when the tape plays in the Logging Tool.

There are indeed both 24p and 30p on the same tape, but that is irrelevant to the camcorder and firewire. As long as I don't cross mode boundaries WHILE capturing -- I can't see it should make any difference. One day 24p comes up the firewire another day 30p comes up the firewire. And another day, DV comes up the firewire.

However, the Logging Tool does seem to know if the camera is switched to DV or HDV because the Native Capture Mode switches from DV to M2V. So, there is the possibility that when it senses HDV it assumes 30p. But, if so, how did I capture 24p last week?

If you are saying that a REEL name points to a reel database and that whatever is FIRST found on a tape is entered into the database -- that seems possible.

1) How does one see the information stored about a Reel?

2) I can find no way to delete a Reel!

3) Creating a new Reel makes no difference!

4) Creating a New Project makes no difference! One assumes one gets a clean set of Reels in a new project.

So I'm inclined to discount the Reel theory.

Which leaves me with the fact that despite the fact that Native mode is supposed to simply move the data to a file -- it is checking the Transport Stream data or the timecode data and saying this isn't correct. But, how would it know correct from incorrect?

1) In the EZ Capture Tool, I note that it recognizes the HDV camcorder as a JVC and claims it is NTSC and 29.97. Which is correct for both DV and M2V. Although I customized the FPS setting to 59.94 -- it ignores the change. What does your read-out say?

2) When I originally captured 24P I did not have the camcorder set to JVC. Can't remember what the default camcorder was, but it was not JVC. How do you know 24p is PAL?

3) It could look to see if the capture matches the current Sequence, but the Sequence is 24p so it shouldn't matter.

If the FTP was up I could make a camtasia (again) of how media management works. You'll have to wait for that...

AFA 24p is concerned, I have had no problem getting it to recognize the the 24p and capture it as advertised on 8 installs (including the beta).

So,

New project, new reel gives the same results?
How about this Steve. Capture the 24p m2t using CapDVHS directly to the hard drive (outside of the Liquid environment) and then import it into a rack using the import function with the autodetect framerate checkbox checked.

Does it come in as 23.98 and populate your rack? If it imports blank and captures blank then I'd say reinstall because something is corrupt.

S.Noe

Steve, I'll take a shot at this although it is possible that your problem is completely unrelated. Let's examine a typical NLE database. The media files on the hard drive are associated with source clips within the project (ie the original digitised files). The source clips (and therefore the media files) are also associated with a source tape or external target for import. What Stephen is saying is that as soon as your database detected that a source tape that had previously been logged in the database as 24P actually contained 30P media it caused an error in the code that the programmers had not considered.
I'm hypothesising that Liquid can no longer do the necessesary frame extraction on a 24P source because it is now treating every 24P source as a 30P source, because you told it to!
Either way, when Stephen gets a chance I think he has already managed to duplicate your problem:

Also he maybe able to take you through the necessary steps to regenerate the database.

Of course it could also be something as simple as a corrupted .dll in which case uninstalling and re-installing would be your next option (although if it is the database and that is something that is NOT uninstalled, you may have to repair it or delete and regenerate it.)

That's a good idea. Will try. I have not had any luck importing .m2t files I captured on the Mac.

Also going to try both capture and import of 24p from my Focus drive. I know the import from the Focus worked because I still have the file and project and sequence.

++++++++++++++

Avid has so far not been able to describe a procedure that works to get a finished HD Sequence into an SD sequence so I can make a DVD or a DV tape. How do you get HDV to DV?

I have been making a Container of my finished HDV sequence. Then I've tried two options -- neither works:

1) Copy the Container and Paste into an SD sequence. (Avid's suggestion.) The Paste appears to auto-crop the 1280x720 to 720x480. This seems reasonable, but Avid claims that the full 1280x720 image should be in the SD sequence and that I must use the 2D Editor to scale it to SD. Since it has already been cropped to SD, this doesn't work.

2) Use the 2D Editor on the Container to resize image to 720x480, render it all, and then Copy and Paste it into the SD sequence. If the Paste auto-crops -- this should work, as the desired 720x480 image is in the center of the 1280x720 frame. Amazingly, it seems to ignore the resize done on the Container and crops the ORIGINAL 1280x720 to 720x480.


Perhaps I don't understand Containers and the resize of it really doesn't change the image. Meaning a Container isn't really like a Clip.


Perhaps, Copying and Pasting isn't the right way to move HD Clips or an HD Container into an SD sequence. The document Avid sent me claims you "add HD clips to the SD timeline the way you usually do." But that document assumes you have HDV clips in a Rack, not in a finished HDV sequence.

If I could drag a Container to a Rack that would help, but it won't move from a Sequence to a Rack. (Most NLEs let you do so.)

Copy Range might work, but amazingly there is no Paste Range button on the Toolbar so no way to insert it. Paste doesn't work.

Avid also describes a Right-click option on a clip, but Pinnacle Germany says the rescale is poor and to use a resize.

Screenshot
 

I Captured another 24p tape to test it out again and it's AOK.

Coincidentally, Now Liquid list the 24p as HDFilm for the reel type. It used to say PAL as the reel type but now they've re-designated the 24p as HDFILM within the media management. Works flawlessly even with dumping the media and batch capturing off of timecode. NPF.

Here is the screenshot. Obviously the 24p does not belong in my current project.

BTW. There is only one way to delete a reel and that's by going into the media tab, highlighting the reel name and pressing the delete key. It will not only delete the reel but all associated timecode records and any linked media. It will wipe it from the system.

S.Noe

Thank you for hanging in with me. Looking at the MEDIA tag I find some confusing information.

Under a Project, there are 6 "reels."

1) IMPORTED FILES0 (NTSC) -- which actually has both NTSC and 30p HDV.

2) IMPORTED FILES0 -- only 30p HDV

3) IMPORTED FILES0 (HDFILM(DF)) -- both 24p and 30p HDV

4) REEL -- only 30p HDV.

5) IMPORTED FILES0 (PAL) -- SmartSounds WAV file

6) FORMULA BMW NTSC (NTSC) -- the Avid NTSC demo video

7) Images -- the images I imported and the Avid demo images

What I conclude from this is that if you use the EZ Capture Tool, Liquid generates a "reel" name: IMPORTED FILES0.

While I did IMPORT some material from the Focus drive, some I CAPTURED. Thus, the name "IMPORTED" seems wrong.

It also looks like it adds a tag (NTSC), (PAL), or (HDFILM(DF)). But it seems clear that these tags are not valid.

If you use the Logging Tool, then it assigns a REEL as a default name. Or, you can create your own name -- although none of the reels I've created show-up!

Sometimes a "Clip #" name is used. However, another type of clip name appears -- a series of digits. My guess is that these names are generated when a file is IMPORTED.

My conclusion is that the MM system is a bit screwed-up.

I would have agreed with this assessment 5 years ago when I first started out in FAST/Edition. It's only screwed up until you figure out the logic. Then you'll "get it" and wonder why everyone else doesn't have great media managment like Liquid or Media Composer.

There are some things I'd like improved though (like Waveform and Vscope in the Logging tool for Live capture).

Anyway, you can join me face to face in Charlotte during early November if you wish to.