JVC HD vs Avid Xpress pro
 

Hi,
I don't know if this is news or not but... I spoke to an Avid rep at a trade show yesterday and asked my favourite question "when's the upgrade for 720p/24 + 25 coming out". He told me that they had planned to have it by December but "have had some problems" so now its going to be next year... he did assure me they are working on it. Please feel free to tell me I should have bought a different editing system...

Hi Paul,

When you bought your camera, were they bundling Liquid with it? You could get Liquid and get cutting today.....

.... in 24, 25, 30, 50 and 60fps.

I have been very made at Avid because of lack of 720/24P support. For now I have been converting to DNxHD. My real concern is that Xpress Pro 5.5 runs on my Powerbook G4, but when this gets released, I have a feeling it wil come with Xpress 6 which will only be tailored to the new Intel macs.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

This is what I feared. It was the same story this time last year. Honestly, it's not rocket science. It's particularly ridiculous that they have a cheaper product (Liquid) that already works perfectly with 720p/25 (HDV1). The only reasonable explanation is that originally they down-graded priority over bigger projects like Interplay and that they intend to release this feature as part of a general upgrade to v.6xx (MC v.3xx; SN v.2xx) which means that all the other new features and companion applications must work together for a release throughout the product range. If this is true then - according to past form - the wait could go on for a long while. The other important question is will full HDV1 implementation bring with it the ability to toggle SD/HD project resolution? This capability is there for HDV2 but not in the existing HDV1 support, which means no SD preview to client monitors, which is already there in Liquid as well. To all fellow HD100 owners who use the traditional Avid apps on the PC, take Stephen's advice and get yourself a copy of Liquid. As I've said before, it's worth the money even if you only use it to ingest and transcode. Liquid is already a key part of our workflow for HD100 material, even if we don't use it for cutting. IMHO it's seriously under-rated. It's just a shame it's owned by Avid now! [sort of kidding]. If you're using a Mac then FCP has to be the answer.

Speculation aside, I also happen to know for sure that many people at Avid are mystified as to why anyone would want to work at 720p/25 - particularly for broadcast work. And they do have a point...

Oh, you just gotta LOVE Avid... Remember how long we waited for HD support in the first place - that is AFTER Avid already had it running on the PC platform? Dig some trenches, it's going to be a long war. Or, as Tony said, consider FCP :-(

Blergh. Everyone else who's getting narked at Avid - feel free to join in making noise over here.

Hi Stephen,
They were bundling Edius with the cam when I bought it, and we can use that when necessary, but we'd already spent £1200 on the Avid software that we used in the SD world, and now when we want it to do HDV its just sitting there, looking sorry for itself... It just makes me annoyed on principal that Avid don't seem particularly bothered to keep up with the competition

Do you still use BetaSP or DVCam for your Xpress system or have you completely switched over to HD using ProHD?

Absolutely. I've been making a lot of noises over there for more than a year. Every now and then the Moderators tell us to shut up, with varying degrees of sensitivity. The most amusing recent one was when someone suggested that the delay was because Avid didn't want to do a 'rush job'. Well, there's no danger of that!!!!

I say we keep stirring it up over there until they sort it out.

Avid do indeed need a kick up the backside on this one.

Stephen - Liquid seems to be a reasonable editor and supports everything you say, but unfortunately my facility is tied to a MCA, Xpress Elite and Xpress Pro, so the lack of integration with the rest of the Avid lineup is a major stumbling block. To me Liquid is about as much of a solution as Edius, Vegas, PP2 etc.

It is really unacceptable to support all the Sony HDV and HD formats and 720P30 HDV and ignore the rest of the 720P world. It almost seems like Avid would like to sell you Liquid as well as Xpress Pro ... hmmm.

Arrogant has always been a word that sits quite close to Avid (in the dictionary).

Agreed.

But there's been some movement over there on the Avid forums. It looks like we've had a response from the constant complaining. It seems we might have some news on Monday.

It really is driving me nuts now.

I am about to buy the HD111e and am running Xpress Pro HD 5.2.1 and really want to be able to shoot in 720p 24fps.

But I do have a question.

In my current version of Xpress Pro I am able to create a project in 720p/23.976 (I am in PAL world) so shouldn't I be able to shoot with the HD111e in 720p 24fps and be AVID to bring it into my current version of Xpress Pro?

I use a JVC SR-VS30E mini-DV/SVHS Dual VTR PAL for all my digitizing.

http://www.globalmediapro.com/video/..._PAL--569.html

No, you can't bring in HDV1 at 24fps as a native stream into a 24p project. It doesn't matter which version of AXPro you are running because it cannot be done even with the latest version. That's what all the fuss is about. Of course, you can down-convert to SD and capture via SD YUV; unbalanced analogue audio; RS422 control/TC using the BRHD50 but then you're firmly in SD. You can also use the native HDV stream with the Convergent HD_Connect LE (or similar) to do the same or capture a baseband SDI signal as uncompressed 16:9 FHA SD into AXPro/MC using the Mojo SDI or baseband HD-SDI 1080i (PsF, of course, via cross-conversion) as DNx into MCA or even 10-bit uncompressed HD into Symphony Nitris. The cheap alternative is to use a third party capture utility and batch convert your files to DNx but you lose TC if you do this unless you really are prepared for a painful work-around.

Bottom line: no 720p/24 or 25 or 50 native support in any Avid system except DS Nitris, which does support 720p/50. You can only work with HDV1 at 30fps in Avid systems below DS.

If you're in a hurry, I'd pick another camera or switch editing system if I were you. Or you could just sit and wait for Avid to get their act together...

Simon, you live in Angers? That's just not fair.

Antony,

Why might that be?

Do you know Angers?

A little bit - enough to be jealous!

What kind of work do you shoot in London?

Do you have a website for your company or work you have done.

Every now and then I'm over in London and would be good to have another contact in that neck of the woods.

Simon

Mostly broadcast work and mostly editing. I've sent you a PM with more information.

My university just got the HD100s in, but my tutor said we can’t shoot in HDV yet because Avid systems don’t support it yet. We currently use Avid Pro HD 5.1.

I thought they it did support it, just not 24p?

Also, I mentioned that we could shoot in HDV and down convert to SD which would produce better picture quality that shooting in DV (what I have researched)

He disagreed with this. What’s true?

Your right the down convert would be better and yes avid dose support HDV now the 24p issue is still in the works, unless you use liquid.

Does Avid support HDV in PAL countries? I was under the impression that 25 fps is not supported, only 30 fps. What part of the world are you in, Simon?

Hi Jiri

Don't get excited! No 24 OR 25fps support yet. Last I heard (from a decent source) is January. As we know, Avid does support 30fps but not very well!

At Simon Antoniou - I also agree with you and not your tutor. If you shoot well in HDV then you can end up with better SD pictures than if you shot in DV but that only applies if the post method is right. That post method isn't really accessible to you via Avid unless you use Liquid (or a lot of fiddling about in 1080p). If you cannot edit HD then you can't down-convert at the end for best results so that means totally SD post. Remember that you cannot downconvert for ingest via firewire using the camera or the deck as you can with Sony HDV2 gear. The only easy method of down-converting is via analogue (YUV) and you can only maintain TC with the deck (RS422) not the camera. For this you will need Mojo analogue or the Adrenaline box with MC. The D to A conversion is not so great on the deck (neither is frame accuracy on capture) and back in again on the Mojo so you'll end up with worse SD than if you shot DV in the first place. Better down-conversion is available via SDI using an HDV to HD/SD SDI interface (such as the Convergent box) for which you will also need Mojo SDI or MC Adrenaline.

Bottom line, if you need to edit soon and you don't have alternative NLE systems available to you, I'd take your tutor's advice and shoot DV if you want 24p or 25p unless you have access to an HDV-HD/SD SDI converter and an Avid workstation that can capture SD SDI.

Im from PAL land in the UK. Maybe the student package does not support it?
I would prefer to shoot in HDV at 30 fps. Rather than DV at 24p.

The latest version of FCP support HDV 24fps right? I might just edit on my friends mac if I can.

Sorry Simon, we were posting at the same time. Yes, definitely use the Mac and FCP and shoot HDV1 if that's a viable option. Oh, and if you are in the UK and you shoot HDV1 30fps you WILL be sorry!!!

I thought it was just a case of shooting HDV, edit, then just put on a DVD. Which is the downconverting. Not as messy as that.

Thankyou very much for the info.

Well, it should be that simple! The issue with Avid as it stands is that you'd have to down-convert BEFORE ingest, which is a pain in itself with the existing JVC gear.

If you go with FCP, then you can do just what you say - ingest and edit in HDV/HD and then encode an SD MPEG2 file for DVD. Much simpler.

Just to add a Mac NTSC experience (nightmare, hassle, whatever you want to call it...);

I ingested and edited in HDV and really wanted to go from there to DVD but in the end and after trying all source of transcodes to DNxHD codecs I had to "Export to HDV Device" and re-capture the project from tape downconverted by the deck to SD. After that, it was a simple QT reference and DVD encode.

I sure hope that Avid will wake up and do something real soon!

My guess is that one of the reasons it's taking Avid so long to implement 24 and 25fps HDV1 is because the existing 30fps support is so weak, they know they have to re-think. Jiri's experiences confirm this suspicion for me. Also, Jiri - I believe that the best DNx codec you have in 720p/30 HDV projects is 110?

Yes, that's correct.

That's pretty rotten. So, it may well be the case when other frame rates are supported that low bit rate DNx are the only non-native options. That would be very disappointing. There is a DNx 175 for 720p/24 but I wonder if we'll get anything like that. There is already a DNx 720p/25 codec but it's DNx 60. Oh dear. I'm working at 1080p DNx 185, which is quite simply a superb codec. 60 seems stupidly low, even for 720p. Add to this that existing support doesn't give you SD preview via Mojo and there are grounds for serious concern.

I guess we shouldn't get our hopes up on full HDV1 support from Avid at this stage. Even when it does come, it may well be inadequate.

Here's hoping I'm wrong!

Let's face it, Avid just released their MOJO SDI, which does NOT support HD preview of any kind. Only SD and only for interlaced HD formats. What are the chances that they would wake up from their extended sleep and quickly bring to the market some sort of hardware interface allowing HD preview and possibly hardware supported HD capture? I say - nil.

The only possiblility would be opening up to third party manufacturers and allowing AJA and Decklink (and others) to adapt their hardware to work with Avid. I am not very technical at this level so I am not even sure why the cards can work with Adobe and Apple product and not with Avid. Perhaps it's some driver or programing inside Avid software? In either case, Avid will say that they have their own hardware support with Adrenaline and other high-end product and that's that. Heck, even Adrenaline won't support HD unless it has the DNxcel card installed - I think somewhere around $6k for the card alone...

Am I hearing some really loud snoring? Ah, it's just Avid back in bed napping away, I am afraid...:-(

I hear you Jiri. As you say, there's not a snowball's chance in hell that Avid will ever support third-party I/O hardware. They will have to sort out the feature/price paradigm at some point before all their customers wonder what's going on. IMHO, Avid does still have by far the best cutting interface out there as well as a handful of other major advantages for professional work and those advantages make it worth paying a premium. The problem is the premium is so far outside the bounds of reason that it's completely ridiculous and it's hard to make a case against FCP based on this.

Avid often been slow to adapt in the past and to be fair, this is because they usually take the time to do things right where other NLEs rush features/products to market. However, in the case of HDV1 support the Avid situation is beyond farcical now. As I've said many times, Avid reps told me 'soon' in September 2005...