Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

Hi all just a question on the Sony A7. I put on the front a Sony 18-200 power zoom off my VG30 the images are excellent the power zoom works fine from the switch on the lens but I can't get it to work using sony multi lead and controller that same lead etc plugged into my small handycam works a treat do I need to set something on the A7 or will it just not work' Thanks Wilf.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

please post the link. i can't find what ur talking about.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

If you don't mind the sub par quality of a "on-the-fly" half-debayered signal, that was made for monitoring use, but not for recording, than you are fine with the RX10.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

Do you have any support to your claims, or are you just trolling?

right on the sony site:

"Connect via the HDMI terminal to transfer clear, uncompressed digital movie signal output from the RX10 to an external monitor/recorder simultaneously in real time. Or, for a cleaner view, turn off the shooting info display and watch your movies unfold on an external monitor/recorder."

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

I have a Sony Cybershot RX10 on order due next week. I also have a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera which I not particularly affectionately call ‘little Oink’ as it really is such a pig of a thing to use even if the imagery is half-decent. You can be sure I will conduct objective disinterested dispassionate comparisons (I do NOT have a ‘special’ relationship with either Sony or Blackmagic therefore trolling will not be my game) under my regular shooting conditions.

Based on the mts files directly off the RX10, and not re-compressed, that I have viewed, and for that matter the output published at the Sony RX10 user group at Vimeo and to a lesser degree on YouTube I am of the opinion that Little Oink will be getting a short shift to Trademe primarily because of the horrible ergonomics. I hardly need a comparison to know that already, nevertheless I shall conduct the comparisons.

The Blackmagic Pocket was a good idea very poorly executed, unfortunately, and because of that not only will the RX10 provide serious competition but, in my opinion, will leave it floundering and falling to pieces in the dust no matter the final vain inglorious attempts to stop the hemorrhage.

Back to the drawing board Blackmagic, and may I suggest you begin again at square one. And next time drop the silly ‘Pocket’ nonsense perhaps.

I shall post my findings in due course.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

Ironically, I just added both cameras to our kit this week.
I got them both for their size and different abilities.
You'll never get the image out of the RX10 that you will from the BMPC.
You'll never get the range and function of the RX10 from any BM camera or DSLR, nothing but a "C" camera.

So getting both, and sticking them in our kit was kind of a no brainer for me once I got a chance to work with the footage.

And rigging the BMPC to shoot well was pretty easy - a form fit cage, a magnetized VF. Still small but easy to attach a 7" monitor. Yeah, it's basic out of the box, but it's image is a lot more than half-decent - it's world class if it's shot well.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

American English New Zealand English.

World class - ranked among the world's best. An over-statement perhaps. Certainly pushing it!

Half-decent down here means very good – an under-statement if you will. It’s just that we don’t like to brag :-).

I agree that in most ways the two cameras are very different machines. The problem I have with the BMPCC is that by the time I rig it to the functionality of the RX10 it surely is not a small portable device like the RX10 and when I consider the money involved in getting there I do ask myself why would I do that? I was about to head off down that path beginning with an EVF when the RX10 was announced (for similar money) and I said to myself 'hang on a minute mate'.

I do have one use that might justify keeping the BMPCC and fitting it out to improve the ergonomics and that is to slap on a Panasonic G Vario 100-300mm f4/5.6 Mega OIS Lens which will give me huge reach for shooting wildlife that none of my current cameras, including the about to arrive RX10 will give me, not by a long shot. But the BMPCC so rigged is no longer a walk-around sling it over the shoulder and head off on Shanks’ Pony for a few kilometers across the swamp. So I'm still cogitating...

For me it invariably comes down to what is it I want to shoot, what are the conditions that I must work within and then what is the best tool for the job? Thus far the BMPCC has not been that useful while the RX10 looks very promising indeed, for what I largely do.

And always YMMD.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

I love learning the subtleties of the languages we share, and NZ is a "must visit someday" for a lot of reasons for me.

It's always about the user and the usage with these tools.
We're diverse/fortunate enough that I get to produce a lot of doc and promotional work for locations and outdoor sports - and do a lot of narrative, TV spot work.

I got the pair for their size and the extremely different purposes they fill.
Rigged out, the BMPC is still so much smaller than other narrative tools we might use like a Red or C300.
But honestly, the image is right there with them.

The R10...we'll see, but I get a feeling I'll have a blast with it on a lot of locations

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

OK, I’m late to the party I know but my Sony Cyber-shot RX10 finally arrived. How do I like it - let me count the ways. Actually no, I shan’t do that as the attributes of this well designed and engineered little wonder have already been well documented by much smarter and more moving picture savvy people than me. However I can report that even after only a couple of sorties I am highly impressed, to say the least.

Is this new machine serious competition for the BMPCC as is the subject of this thread? In my humble opinion - that is for my intended use - the answer is no, there is no competition; the BMPCC doesn’t even get a look in - the RX10 is everything I had hoped the BMPCC would be and then some when it comes to easily delivering a great image. Which of course is not to say others won’t find that the BMPCC meets their needs.

So the question I addressed regarding whether I should purchase an EVF for the BMPCC or the RX10 (similar dollars) the answer is the RX10 - a no brainer.

Many thanks to all the folks who posted footage (there is now tons) and comments regarding the ‘camera of the year’, the RX10.

Oh, yes; I have one serious complaint; the lens cap is not able to be connected to the camera body by a cord. How could Sony be so inept? I tell ya...

OK, let me dig out my Trademe account information.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

delete...........

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

It's interesting that most comments here seem to be limited to comparing the BM Pocket with Sony photo cameras that have been recently released, and not to the Pocket's older brother, the BM 2.5K.

For me the Pocket has serious limitations for recording time (20 minutes), as I only consider the RAW option. That shouldn't be a problem with the 2.5K's internal SSD recorder, even if I don't know how many minutes they can hold for RAW video.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

It has been a bit of a moving target, Carlos, and I initially intended to purchase the older bigger brother. In fact I went ahead and purchased an SSD card and a reader. But then the Pocket was introduced to great fanfare and, like a lot of folks, I thought if this is a pocket-able version of the original shooting essentially the same quality, and considering the price I didn’t think twice. I switched my order to the Pocket.

And now I wish I hadn’t, hindsight is perfect of course, as the price of the original was significantly reduced, the quality with the Pocket was not up there either along with serious ergonomic limitations, and it sure didn’t fit in my pocket.

Whatever, the image produced by the Pocket is not too bad but when it comes to a walk-about shoot video and photographs, which is where my needs have evolved to, the Pocket is not in the hunt. It’s still the least expensive way to shoot raw, I believe, and for the price it does a reasonable job. Perhaps version 2 will address the ergonomic shortcomings but it will likely cost more I'm guessing.

If I wanted to shoot raw and was at square one it would be the original BMCC I would purchase.

Video-wise I can get footage every bit as pleasing to me, if not more so, with the new Sony Cyber-shot RX10 even if it isn’t raw (video that is). Taking care with exposure and in-camera settings the dynamic range I am obtaining with the RX10 is right up there with finished footage captured by the BMPCC too. And it is a joy to use.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

I do quite a bit of audio/video for classical orchestra, chamber groups, etc. I was really interested in the Pocket cam until I started thinking about how I could handle the 1 1/2 to 2 hour performances. Thought about an external recorder on the Pocket but looking at the price by the time I would have everything rigged up, I switched to the BMCC. So far I've been more or less playing with it, but will use it for a real concert on the 28th which will be posted to You Tube sometime in January.

Of course the built in battery life is too short as well, but same for the Pocket and since I have several AB batteries for my old JVC I got a Tilta "Gold Mount" and I think I'm good to go. I don't plan to record in RAW though - ProRes should let me get a full concert and then some on the SSD and for Web delivery will be more than good enough. I think I could record RAW if I were willing to swap out the SSD at intermission like I do with the tapes on the JVC, , but for the moment I don't want to have to buy a second SSD.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

Thanks John and Jim for your comments.

Since the Pocket was released I thought it was the camera for me, as it seemed to improve on both Panasonic's hacked GH2 and standard GH3.

Unfortunately I didn't foresee the Pocket's recording & battery time constraints, which prove a bit problematic for the type of work I'm doing now, which is documentaries basically based on long interviews. For that I would need something that can at least record 1 hour nonstop, be it internally or externally.

So my plans moved back to the BMCC 2.5K, which also lowered in price, and started looking for comparisons with the Pocket and other cameras. The RAW availability also seems to have put other photo cameras in a "budget" range, even the overpriced Canon 5D Mk III.

Now let me put another issue which is important for me: the camera I buy has to "look" like a photo camera, so I have to pay no taxes on the Brazilian customs here. Photo cameras are allowed to pass through with no charge, video cameras are not.

So that also puts a question mark on the BMCC 2.5K that the Pocket didn't have, as the latter does look like a photo camera. I'm not so sure about the 2.5K about that, as I found it to be a bit larger than a Canon 5D.

I'm not familiar with the Sony RX10, or any other recent releases, so I wonder how it does compare to the 2.5K, all recording RAW.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

I know Brazil is "challenging" with regard to importing stuff. When I worked for IBM we had a factory (well, maybe more of a final assembly and test operation) in Brazil because of the high import taxes. I seem to recall that we would keep products in production there long after they had been retired everywhere else because it wan't worth the expense of qualifying new stuff. Surprisingly for a manufacturing and export driven economy, China is also a horror show re bringing in manufacturing equipment to set up a new line. We're in the middle of a major factory transfer into China right now and it's REALLY a nightmare getting the tooling into the country. So I understand your problem.

Do you expect to go somewhere and buy the camera and come back with it? If it's going to be shipped in I doubt you could get even the Pocket in as a still camera as I'm sure it would be identified as a video cam on the import documents. If not the word "Cinema" in the product name would be a tip off to the Customs folks.

The BMCC DOES have a neckstrap just like a still camera though so I guess you could sling it over your shoulder with a long lens on it.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

Hi Jim,

Yes, bureaucracy here is a burden. I believe only India can be worst! :)

That rule I mentioned is only valid when you are personally entering into Brazil, where you are exempt of paying taxes up to a value of $500, and after that you pay 50% of remaining value. Unfortunately they changed things, and now you can't declare stuff when you got out of the country, which I think is a tricky trap.

So even if you entered something and they didn't notice, when you come back you would have to "slip by" again or pay the tax.

If it was me bringing the camera, and not a friend, I would simply carry the camera as a photo one. But this is not the case, and the tax would be more than $750. In any case it's better than buying it in Europe, where price is more than 2,000 euros.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

Wow - that's pretty expensive. And you will still need the SSD which isn't so cheap either. I got one, but will try to survive with just the one for a while. I can usually offload the video to a computer before the 440GB will fill up. I think in ProRes I can get about 4 hours on the SSD but RAW would be maybe 1 1/2 hours

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

Yes, of course: the SSD and the lens.

Apparently the BMCC 2.5K package does not even include a battery (?).

Adding them up will mean $ 1,500 more to the final account.

In my case I will also want an external 7" monitor, like an Ikan, which means more $1,300.

An external cage will also be necessary, but I think I will try a DIY type for now.

Camera Cage from camera accessories from Ebay

Today I saw what seems like an affordable complete combo:

5D2 5D3 7D DSLR Rigs Video Shoulder Camera Support Stabilizer [CAME-2] - US$598.00

Though I wonder if anyone has tried it yet.

Fortunately I already have all the external audio stuff I will need in mics, mixer and Tascam external recorder.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

The BMCC has an internal battery. My limited experience is that you might get 30 to 45 minutes out of it, Since I already had a lot of Canon still lenses and very old manual diaphragm Nikon lenses that I probably bought around 1966 I have enough "glass" for now. I also still use my720P JVC HD110 (tape!!!) cam that I run off of a set of Anton Bauer batteries, so I just needed an adapter to use them with the BMCC.

I got a Tilta cage for the cam from an Ebay store and have been pleasantly surprised by the quality for the price.as well as customer support when I had some initial problem with the included cable attaching to the adapter. Not sure how much time I'll get from the A-B battery but I suspect it will be 3 to 4 hours or more. I'll know better after I record the concert on 12/28. I let the camera just run for over an hour today and the battery was still showing plenty of charge remaining..

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

Yes, time does look constrained with the internal battery. It does need an external one. Pity the DC connector is not a locking type.

Unfortunately I have no glass. So I will need a zoom and at least two lenses: suggestions?

The Tilta cages looks like a good one. Are you using an external monitor?

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

No external monitor yet. Might get an EVF next year so I can use the BMCC with a shoulder mount, But most of what I plan to do with it will be pretty well locked down so only need the VF for initial focus and rough color temp setting. The "active" camera is my JVC 110 on a tripod because it has a real (albeit not the greatest!) video lens on it, so smooth LANC controlled zooming and panning are easier and real buttons instead of touch screen silliness and since everything will wind up as 720P online there's no reason not to use it for a few more years. Until I can't get tape anymore!

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

I know what you mean. I own a Sony Z1, which is great because it can do NTSC and PAL.

The present doc I'm shooting is being shot in HDV PAL, for an eventual transfer to film, which I doubt will happen. But as it's being shot on a PAL country (Argentina), it would prevent eventual fluo flickering location problems.

The idea is that this camera becomes "B", and the new one takes over as "A".

I also deeply dislike on-screen controls, as I believe they shorten screen life. I had them on my Sony DV camera, and I never used them. I think the Z1 has them too.

My main concern is finding a camera I can really focus in mid-shots, with shallow DOF. That is something I do not have on the Z1, due to its small 1/3" sensors.

I opened another thread where I am also discussing likely options to the Blackmagic:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/blackmag...ml#post1825014

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

I have absolutely no problem with the batteries on the BMPCC - completely over blown non-issue. They're pretty much the same mini-battery size as the ones in the RX10. I simply picked up 4 extras for $60 and a $25 dual charger. With a $200 LCDVF you've got a perfectly complete little rig. It's simply not a "pocket" camera like a P&S but that's not why people are buying them - they're buying them for the super16 cinema image - which it delivers in spades, if you light, expose and stabilize it professionally. And for another $100 I bought the new Contineo cage, that's amazing for the money and makes the whole rig with a 7" monitor perfect for commercial work.

Now, regarding the two cameras, it really depends on what you're producing. We produce a good deal of film that requires outdoor locations and often shots without a crew. That's why I was interested in the RX10 and it really paid off. It's an absolutely great little camera that we've been testing all week with the BMPCC for upcoming projects next week.

It's not an either or. They deliver two completely different experiences and two completely different looks. We certainly knew that going into it and bought them for the two things they excel at:

The RX10 is better than any DSLR as a filming tool. It has everything you'd want in a video camera for controls and a great lens. If you liked using a DSLR for filming, this is a new ballgame.

The BMPCC, is a creative tool for beauty work, and will sit beside RED and Alexa footage given the same lighting and handling. It's inexpensive to rig into a full production tool and it still remains very small.

With the BMPCC, you won't get the ergonomics or features of the RX10 - not even remotely close.

With the RX10 you won't get the image of the BMPCC. You'll get an awesome image - really surprisingly so even with complex backgrounds despite what some have said about the AVCHD codec. It's obvious that those people didn't understand that you shut off the "Active" OIS and move the camera at the same speed as any 24p move.

Anyway, after doing studio and outdoor tests with both cameras, they're both keepers for two different purposes.

If you're doing film work and TV commercials don't even think about it, get the BMPCC and for about $1400 you've got everything you need (and we only produce in Pro Res not RAW).

If you run and gun, don't even think about it - the RX10 is the best thing since sliced bread for that.

If you do both, then for $3000 (including a nice 7" monitor for the BMPCC) you've got a production package that will fit in a shoulder bag with lenses and batteries for both.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

Very nice, Jim!

It's interesting that I was reading your comments thinking you were talking of the BMCC, and not the BMPCC as you were. Amazing! Have you compared it with other more expensive cameras?

And you think the Pocket is that good so as to consider it for serious film work? That's a serious recommendation! Don't worry, I believe you.

Perhaps I should re-reconsider the Pocket again, and forget about shooting RAW for this job. I think it's simpler to dress up the Pocket than the 2.5K. Basic lens choice (it has to be a zoom), at least four CF 64Gb cards, four batteries (which I can buy later from eBay) and a 7" monitor. I would prefer a 10" type, but I can compromise on the 7". Something about $1,300 or so.

Later on I could go back to RAW, even doing some tests with the Pocket first, to see on what it improves on ProRes.

I think I should get a Speedbooster too.

The Contineo cage you talk about is that metal box all full of holes? It looks amazing! You can add accesories to it, I guess, so maybe I should consider them too. How do you attach a 7" monitor to it?

Thanks for making me look at things in a different way.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

Hey Carlos, glad I can help.

Regarding the Contineo (mine actually just arrived FedEx) they sell a cold shoe that mounts to the cage for about $25 and of course you can always get a more flexible arm for little more that mounts anywhere on it.

I'm going to keep talking affordable budget because that's important to most people and its one of the strengths of the BMPCC. With that in mind, you should look at the Lilliput 663/664 (only a few monitors will take the direct 24p HDMI out of the BMPCC). You can pick one up for around $400 with peaking, false color, focus assist and they run on small NPF or other battery plates.

Yes, the BMPCC can shoot absolutely beautiful film footage.

The new BMPCC Speedbooster (when they're back in stock) makes it the most unique little camera around. Now it's like a Super35 camera with very fast and sharp manual glass like Nikon AIS (my favorites).

If you do get the BMPCC, for starters, get the Olympus 45mm. It's simply a stunning portrait/CU lens that will rival any Canon L combination. You can pick up factory refurbs of them for $400-500. A 1DC with a Canon 85mm 1.2 won't look as good...certainly any better and one costs $1500 for camera and lens and the other about $15,000.

If I can later, I'll post a couple of screen grabs from a shoot last week with the BMPCC and 45mm.
Try googling Alexa/BMPCC/BMCC there's a link to a film shot recently with all three cameras cut together.

Re: Serious competition for the BMPCC
 

This Contineo Pocket setup, with external Sony battery and 7" monitor looks like a winner!

Part 2: Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera Review | MAX Aperture Films