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-   -   BMPCC 6K review after a few months... (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/blackmagic-cinema-camera/537352-bmpcc-6k-review-after-few-months.html)

Guillermo Ibanez March 24th, 2020 09:54 AM

BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Hey guys,

we've had the BMPCC 6K for a few months now and we decided to write about it. I'll say in advance that we love the camera but it also has some serious downsides to it!

https://www.vivalazoom.co.uk/bmpcc6k...uction-review/

Thanks in advance!!

Guille

Pete Cofrancesco March 24th, 2020 12:00 PM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Nice review, thanks for sharing.

Caught a typo:

“ But they’ve compromised in probably the best way the could.”

Cary Knoop March 24th, 2020 12:29 PM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
It's a great camera but it is missing image stabilization and a viewfinder, both in my opinion are essential for a pocket camera.

Guillermo Ibanez March 24th, 2020 01:33 PM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Thanks!

@Pete - typo corrected, thanks!

@cary true that, but for that price most people will be able to forgive its obvious shortcomings. These cameras are nothing more than a great sensor capable of producing great images in a plastic casing

Doug Jensen March 24th, 2020 02:13 PM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Yeah, but for another $1500 you could have a Panasonic S1H that blows this camera out of the water in every way you want to compare them. Including sensor size, dynamic range, viewfinder, audio, codecs, exposure and focusing aids, timecode in/out, external controls, customization options, etc. In fact, I'm not sure that the BMPCC 6K beats the S1H in any respect except price. And that price difference ought to be of no concern for a pro who is going to go out and actually earn money with the camera. I would suggest that anyone who is thinking of buying any camera in this class do their homework and compare whatever camera they are thinking of to the S1H. It is an amazing cinema camera in a mirrorless body.

Guillermo Ibanez March 25th, 2020 11:24 AM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Yes you might be right on that Doug, i'm not denying it but this is the camera we have and the one we have reviewed! For us it was important that our B and C cameras matched and that's why we went down that route. Another important factor for us was the Canon mount as we have lots of Canon glass even though i guess you can get an adaptor to the S1H?

Doug Jensen March 25th, 2020 02:54 PM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Yes, the Canon adapter for the S1H is just $250 and passes all exposure, stabilization, and focus information to the camera. There is very little difference between native L-mount lenses and EF lenses with the adapter. I also have a PL adapter for the S1H which opens the range of lens options even further.

Cary Knoop March 25th, 2020 03:52 PM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen (Post 1958333)
Yes, the Canon adapter for the S1H is just $250 and passes all exposure, stabilization, and focus information to the camera.

Stabilization?

Doug Jensen March 25th, 2020 04:46 PM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Yes, as I wrote, stabilization.

Cary Knoop March 25th, 2020 07:25 PM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen (Post 1958339)
Yes, as I wrote, stabilization.

What brand adapter transfers the lens stabilization info from an EF lens to the S1H?

Doug Jensen March 25th, 2020 08:26 PM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Sigma MC-21
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...2855/KBID/3801

Cary Knoop March 25th, 2020 09:13 PM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
It is my understanding that Panasonic cameras only work with dual image stabilization (body + lens) on Panasonic lenses.

I take your word for it if you say that dual image stabilization (body + lens) works for Canon IS lenses through this adapter.

Steve Burkett March 26th, 2020 04:58 AM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen (Post 1958321)
In fact, I'm not sure that the BMPCC 6K beats the S1H in any respect except price.

Does the S1H offer a RAW codec? Does it offer punch in focus during recording? Does the S1H offer 6K at 50fps? Does it record to SSD drives via the USB input, does it come with free editing software? If not, then the Pocket 6K has advantages other than price.

The S1H is a lovely camera, but I find the H265 codec very unfriendly to edit and if you want 10 bit in 6K or 50p, you're stuck with it. You have focus, but not reliable compared to Canon or Sony. Frankly, for the price, I would need a more reliable focus, and a better codec. Having gotten so use to editing ProRes and RAW from my Pocket 4K, going back to H264 or H265 feels a step back. Even the 400mbit option on the S1H doesn't give me the flexibility that RAW does on the BM. And that Codec being available upto 50p in 6K on the Pocket 6K is a big bonus over the S1H.

Of course the S1H offers fullframe, stabilisation and Photography features. It's a better run n gun camera and has more dynamic range and a few other useful features. But when I choose to go to 6K, I'll be mor likely going for the Pocket 6K, unless something new and even better comes along in the meantime.

Doug Jensen March 26th, 2020 07:35 AM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Good post, Steve. I like it when someone steps up to make their case about something they feel strongly about. I'm going to post some of my own thoughts, not to argue, but just to continue the discussion.

Shooting H.265 is not necessary. MOV is the format to choose and is the only one (of the three formats) that unlocks all the camera's potential.

What makes you so sure the S1H even needs RAW? Unless someone can show me there is a visible difference after grading in post, I contend that there is probably no benefit. I have not recorded RAW with the S1H but I've gone through all this before with the FS5 and FS7 and showed that RAW wasn't needed. There's nothing about the S1H that suggests to me that RAW would be of any benefit whatsoever. But I'll keep an open mind in case anyone posts some good side-by-side tests that proves my assumption wrong.

ProRes is a good, but bloated, codec that is inefficient for acquisition. I'd rather have the AVC codecs that Panansonic and Sony use.

The S1H is perfectly capable of recording every codec and frame-rate to regular SDXC cards. Why would I want or need an SSD?

The S1H does not need punch-in focus assist during recording because it has peaking and an OLED viewfinder with an adjustable diopter for precise focusing even when tracking a moving target.

No, the S1h does not offer 6K faster than 23.98. But its 6K images come from a FF sensor.

As for free software, any professional in this business should already own Resolve Studio. Getting another key would be useless to me.

Hopefully you can help answer a couple of questions I have about the Pocket 6K:

Does it have customizable paint menus so you can create a nice REC709 WYSIWYG look, or does everything have to be graded?
Does it have customizable zebras?
Does it have customizable peaking?
Does if have SMPTE time code IN/OUT?
Does BM offer a viewfinder option? If so, how much?
Can you add full-size XLR connectors to the camera's hotshoe like the S1H?
Does it have external audio controls?
Can the LCD rotate and swivel?
Can you use PL lenses?
Does it have Dual Native ISO?

Steve Burkett March 26th, 2020 08:19 AM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
I can't answer all your questions as some of the functions you enquire about I don't use and my Pocket 4K is not with me to check. And I don't yet own a 6K Pocket.

Peaking and zebras are customisable. To the same extent as the S1H. I dont know.
It has dual ISO.
You don't have to grade everything. You can bake a LUT into the footage in ProRes and in RAW have one added to the metadata.
Not sure about adding a full size XLR input to the hotshot. It has a mini XLR socket internal, which I have used to connect an XLR Mic to the camera with an appropriate cable adapter, without an external device. So a plus.
No external audio controls. But clear and easy menus are its strength and the audio one is very easy to access and use. I find the BM menus less fiddly than Panasonic.
LCD screen can not rotate. I'm amused you asked this. It's a well known limitation of the camera. :D
It can't take PL natively. Maybe via an adapter.

As for RAW, it's not just about picture quality. It's the flexibility to alter white balance and ISO in post production. I don't need it all the time, but I do need it some of the time and it's so useful to have. It is also much much much easier to edit than H264 and MOV codecs.

A more edit friendly codec for the S1H is seriously lacking in its specs. ProRes is good, bloated as you may feel, it is a strong codec. But I'd take something else that's not H264, H265 or MOV. Now if the S1H had access to BRAW, it would be a huge plus for me.

I am not a huge fan of SD cards. They are not as good as CFast cards that I use, feeling more flimsy. I've had some break, even the so called tough ones I use for my Panasonic cameras. And capture to SSD is very useful. Especially if capturing at anything higher than 200mbits. Plus I can edit straight from the hard drive without transferring footage across. A useful function for me.

Unless focus is better than the GH5 by a considerable margin, punch in focus is needed. Yes the peaking is good, but it's not perfect and sometimes I need to zoom in to make sure it has nailed the right detail. I miss it on the GH5 and GH5s that I use.

I'd rather have 50p 6K at S35 than fullframe 6K. ;) 6K also uses the H265 codec which I dislike. Its 3.2 ratio. Limited to 24p. Not a problem for me as such as I shoot that. If you drop to 5.9K, you get more frame rates I admit. But if shooting 6K, the Pocket 6K gives you a better codec. And if shooting at the 2.40 ratio, you can even get upto 60fps. All in BRAW.. :)

50p and 60p on the S1H is S35 not fullframe, and the codec not as strong. And you can't even get 50p at 6K at all. So this is another weakness of the S1H.

Of course no camera is perfect and I'm well aware of the limits of the Pocket cameras. They are far from perfect and miss several very useful features. But whilst I love the GH5 and GH5s, the Pocket 4K is my main go to camera. I did consider the S1H, but I feel it's short of a few things to make the high price worthwhile for me to spend.

They need a lot better auto focus. And a better codec than what they currently have. The 400mbit one is good. I use it on the GH5 and GH5s. But it could be better. I'd still like to see punch in focus during recording. And the option to record to SSD added would be a nice bonus.

Cary Knoop March 26th, 2020 01:49 PM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Hold on, this is from the description on B&H:

Sensor-Shift Image Stabilization

Helping to achieve the utmost sharpness when photographing handheld, Dual I.S. 2 combines the S1's 5.5 stop-rated 5-axis sensor-shift image stabilization technology with lens-based 2-axis image stabilization to compensate for a broader range of movement types to render sharper, clearer imagery. Dual I.S. 2 requires the use of compatible Lumix lenses featuring O.I.S. This stabilization system is able to compensate for approximately 6 stops of camera shake.


If true then the "canon adapter passing .... stabilization" does not do anything at all.

Cary Knoop March 26th, 2020 01:52 PM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen (Post 1958360)
What makes you so sure the S1H even needs RAW?

Huh? Many professionals prefer to have a raw workflow.

I know you seem to be very involved with the Panasonic S1(H) lately.
Let me ask you this fair question in the name of full disclosure: did you get paid for reviewing or promoting the S1(H) by Panasonic?

Doug Jensen March 27th, 2020 05:58 AM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cary Knoop (Post 1958383)
Hold on, this is from the description on B&H:

I don't care what the B&H website says. I can see and hear stabilization working with my Canon 200-400 and MC-21 adapter. But go ahead and think whatever you want.

Doug Jensen March 27th, 2020 06:03 AM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cary Knoop (Post 1958384)
Huh? Many professionals prefer to have a raw workflow.

There's a flaw in your thinking. Just because "many professionals prefer" RAW does not mean that actually provides superior images or other tangible benefits over 10-bit video once the images are graded and ready for delivery in post. If you disagree, then please post the results of your side by side testing. I'm waiting.

Doug Jensen March 27th, 2020 06:09 AM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cary Knoop (Post 1958384)
I know you seem to be very involved with the Panasonic S1(H) lately.
Let me ask you this fair question in the name of full disclosure: did you get paid for reviewing or promoting the S1(H) by Panasonic?

Sorry to disappoint you, but I have no connections with Panasonic whatsoever. The only person I even remotely know at Panasonic is Mitch Gross and I have not spoken to him since he left Convergent Design and went to Panasonic a couple of years ago. In fact, I'm sure he views the S1H as a competitor to his line of cinema cameras and would not offer any assistance even it I asked. I bought my S1H and lenses at B&H and paid full price. And it was well worth it. As far as I know, Panasonic is not even aware of my videos. My enthusiasm for the S1H comes completely from my own experience with it. In fact, I was already booked to work for Sony at NAB before I even bought by S1H. That is how impartial I am. Nobody has ever influenced my opinions or told me what to say. I'm sure you are disappointed to learn the truth.

Doug Jensen March 27th, 2020 06:22 AM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Burkett (Post 1958363)
I can't answer all your questions as some of the functions you enquire about I don't use and my Pocket 4K is not with me to check. And I don't yet own a 6K Pocket.

Steve, thanks for answering my questions and providing detailed information.

Cary Knoop March 27th, 2020 09:45 AM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen (Post 1958401)
There's a flaw in your thinking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen (Post 1958402)
I'm sure you are disappointed to learn the truth.

Real nice!

Doug Jensen March 27th, 2020 11:16 AM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Almost as nice as your implied accusation by even asking the question in the first place.

Cary Knoop March 27th, 2020 11:22 AM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen (Post 1958427)
Almost as nice as your implied accusation by even asking the question in the first place.

I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking if someone is sponsored.

Product sponsorship is common, many people review products and either receive the product for free or get paid for it.

Doug Jensen March 27th, 2020 11:47 AM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
If I was sponsored by Panasonic I would have said so because it would be unethical for me not to do so. The fact that you felt the need to even ask the question implies you think I am not being ethical and honest in my posts about the S1H. As you say, real nice!

Jeremy Cole May 26th, 2020 06:27 AM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Hi Doug,
Always have been a fan of yours since you wrote the book for the EX1r, which I still have and use, mostly for live events, remember those, by the way.

Just curious about the Panasonic camera, since you have reviewed a lot of cameras; is this really taking the place of a true video camera? You’ve always been someone who has said that you really didn't want to shoot with anything but a true video camera and I was curious as to your feelings these days about that? You have also said that you like the Sony Z280 a lot, which was something I’ve been I’ve been considering for a while now. Since I have a bit of time on my hands, I thought I would explore other cameras and this certainly seems to be an interesting one as well .....as are the Blackmagic cameras especially the pocket cameras for their image and their low cost. One of the items I keep running up against is the issue of lenses (not for the z280, of course). I have a large investment in Sony e-mount lenses as well as a couple of MFT Panasonic lenses and then I have a bunch of old Nikons which I still use with the two other cameras I shoot with, the Sony FS5 and then my AF100 which I still use for certain kinds of events that have controlled lighting.

Doug Jensen May 26th, 2020 07:44 AM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Hi Jeremy, the S1H and Z280 are both excellent video cameras, but totally different cameras that have their own strengths and weaknesses. Just as a Ferrari and a Land Rover are excellent, but different.

Both cameras have excellent picture quality, great viewfinders, TC in/out, high-bitrate 10-bit 4K codecs, etc.

If I had to choose only one of them it would be the Z280 because it is faster, easier, and more versatile for the kind of work I do. The S1H is all about shallow DoF, low profile, portability, etc. If someone else said the S1H met their needs better than the Z280, I'd have no argument with that. Both are good, but different.

You have to evaluate at YOUR own needs. Don't buy a sports car if an SUV would better meet your needs, or vice versa.

I hope that helps.

Pete Cofrancesco May 26th, 2020 09:00 AM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Like Doug said get a camera that is suited to your work don’t get something because it’s a good deal. Despite the appeal of Black Magic low price and cinema look, you need the type of jobs that fit that work flow. Sometimes people need to rent a camera to fully appreciate it’s usability and limitations. If you want it as a hobby camera that’s fine too.

Jeremy Cole May 26th, 2020 06:36 PM

Re: BMPCC 6K review after a few months...
 
Thanks for your thoughts.


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