re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

I don't disagree with anything you've said here, but my concern is that a lot of people on this forum and others don't realize the cost implications of recording uncompressed video to solid-state media, and the difficulty they will have with transferring and editing. Of course, for short shoots, blue-screen and adverts, there is a place for this sort of thing, and we welcome competitive products as a validation of the market space. I just want people to understand - whether they buy our product or someone else's - that they're not saving money with a low-cost device that records uncompressed onto SSDs!

Dave Shapton
Atomos

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

As promised, several BMD HyperDeck Shuttle topics have now been merged into one.

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Nice to see some more competition in this market. Seems there are pros and cons with each so it's really a matter of which one works best for your particular workflow. Interestingly the Nanoflash holds it's own despite all the new offerings at NAB this year.

So from what I've seen so far we have the following:

Blackmagic Design - Hyperdeck Shuttle
Convergent Design - Nanoflash and Gemini
Atomos - Ninja and Samurai
Sound Devices - Pix 220 and 240
Aja - Ki Pro and Ki Pro Mini

Did I miss any?

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Sidekick HD.
Cinedeck.

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Ah thank you Simon,

I wasn't aware of the Sidekick HD and had forgotten the Cinedeck completely. Thank you!

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

About the Shuttle:

1) from what I have read, it requires a computer connected to it for adjusting and checking its settings.

2) It has no monitor or display so it would be crazy NOT to have either a monitor or computer connected to make sure it is working/recording properly.

3) I am very very interested to see what SSDs BM says are ok to use because current non-enterprise SSDs are not designed to handle a constant stream of data being written. Further, most SSDs greatly lose write speeds with a constant stream of data being written. Several websites tested this by using a hard drive speed testing program such as HDTach or HDTune. After about half full, many drives dropped from 200+MB/s write speed to half or less. However, most enterprise SSDs don't have this issue (these SSDs use SLC memory) but cost 2-4 times more. For example, a 64GB Intel X25-E Extreme (SLC) costs $725. Also, MLC drives have 'up to' write speeds and 'sequential' write speeds with the latter far lower and usually not high enough for uncompressed 10bit. A good example is the $500 120GB Vertex Turbo, which has 'up to' write speeds of 200MB/s and 'sequential' write speeds maxing out at 120MB/s.

A good read about SSDs is here: SLC vs. MLC : Solid State Drive Buyer's Guide

4) I bet Convergent Design's 256GB and 512GB SSDs would work great but I don't know if they will have the same interface as a regular SSD. Their prices will be $749 (256GB) and $1349 (512GB). They are sourced and made in the US so no price fluctuation with Japan. These prices should give an idea as to how much a regular SSD should cost in order for it to work with the Shuttle.

5) I really can't believe anyone wants to record uncompressed from a Canon DSLR with all of its noise and aliasing problems.

About other recorders:

1) People should realize that Pro Res HQ uses a different Variable Bitrate for each frame rate and frame size. For example, 720 24p has a 'Target Bitrate' of 88Mb/s and Apple says the actual bitrate is 5-10% lower. Also, 10bit uses about 20% of the bitrate for the extra data. With 1080 24p, it has a 'Target Bitrate' of 176Mb/s. So, doing the math, subtract the 10% of the extra VBR and then subtract the 20% overhead of 10bit, and you get only 127 Mb/s I-Frame for 8bit material. This explains why 50Mb XDCAM HD looks just as good as Pro Res HQ (Long GOP vs I-Frame).

This drops to only 84 Mb/s for regular Pro Res 1080 24p which is visually equal to 35Mb XDCAM EX.

From Apple's whitepaper: "Except in the case of unusually complex material, actual bit rates are typically 5 to 10 percent lower than these targets."

2) Realize that all HDMI camera outputs are 8bit only.

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

You're making some rather sweeping statements here in what is a very interesting post. You're comparing worst cases with best cases: the lowest bitrates of ProRes with the highest bitrates from Long-GOP cameras. Long-GOP is a very efficient way to get good quality from a low bitrate, but that doesn't make it immune from motion artifacts and problems around sharp edges, etc: all the things we're familiar with. Recording at high bitrate ProRes (HQ at 220 mbps, for example) is unarguably better than any Long-Gop format if you have the higher bitrates available. You can see the difference immediately when there is a lot of motion with a complex background, and text and sharp edges look cleaner. No-one claims that any of the Long Gop formats is "visually lossless", but that is a justified claim for ProRes HQ. Of course, if you lower the bitrate of ProRes, then you will find that quality drops off.

Another area where ProRes shines above both Long-GOP and uncompressed is in ease of editing. ProRes is optimised for low CPU use. What this means in practice is that you can play more layers in real-time, scrub more fluidly, and yet retain the highest-possible quality. ProRes is good for many generations, and is extremely popular for high-end post-production. Uncompressed undoubtedly has advantages in that there is no generation loss, but it places great demands on the quantity and speed of a computer's storage, and, compared to ProRes, which even at HQ level is one sixth of the size, is very much harder to live with on a daily basis, and very much harder to afford.

Long-GOP formats based around h.264 were only ever designed for delivery. Quality tails off very quickly with multiple generations, which is exactly what you'd expect if you start cutting material in the middle of a GOP, losing important I-frame data and having to base new I-frames on what were previously only predicted frames. This is not to say that you can't get good results from Long-GOP; surprisingly good, in fact, but it will always be a restricting factor in any high-quality workflow.

As far as the number of bits is concerned: this is a more complex subject than it would appear to be at first sight. ProRes will add 2 bits to any 8 bit recording. On the face of it, this might appear to be wasteful, but there are advantages. All subsequent processing will be done at 10 bit resolution. All grading and dissolves will have additional levels. This is not going to improve the quality of incoming material but will make the overall project more robust.

HDMI is intrinsically capable of receiving 10-bit material and 10-bit HDMI recorders are ready to receive this resolution should any camera manufacturer decide to output it.

Dave Shapton
Atomos

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

That's why the Nano is great. It's 8 bit...

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

and if the Nano only cost $350... it would be even greater. :-)

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Smilies aside... Nano is already priced competitively for what it does.

The $345 cost of the BMD Shuttle is an anomaly. Basically they're giving
it away. It would be a mistake to assume that other manufacturers are going
to follow suit... they're not about to do that.

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Blackmagic won't be selling the SSD drives from what they have told dealers like myself - although they will be offering plastic cases to hold them. No one wants to stock SSD in volume - they pricing is so volatile. While I'm tremendously excited to be a reseller for this, it is a product that will take off in a proportional trajectory to the cost of the SSDs. You are going to need to spend upwards of $850 for one hour of record time from what I'm finding online right now - and you need to be very careful to pick SSDs that have the necessary performance.

I plan to package these units with certified SSDs listing both the size and the record times. I'm still waiting for Blackmagic to release a list of drives they have tested.

We should see these units start arriving in the next few weeks.

Allan Barnwell
Omega Broadcast Group - Professional Video Sales, Rental & Services

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

I think one would have to consider a price of an external monitor along the starting price of 350$. Right? There is no way to monitor what's going on - or is there?

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Yes - if you need to monitor the signal, you'll want an external monitor to go with this.

You'd need to factor that into the price of a NanoFlash, Ki Pro, or Ki Pro min as well. But most of my customers who purchase or rent these units are using larger field monitors anyway.

Then again, it can be nice to have physical buttons to operate these units. Many of the units that have touch screens present field operation challenges as a trade off. I like the simplicity of the buttons on this unit.

Allan Barnwell
Omega Broadcast Group - Professional Video Sales, Rental & Services

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Nano and Aja mini both have screens which show what's going on -> this HyperDeck Shuttle doesn't have a screen of any sort. That's what I meant with "needing a monitor" so you can see some basic info - I wasn't referring to monitoring your image... The fact that it doesn't have even the smallest of a screen would suggest that's it primary intent of purpose is for studio use maybe?

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Is there a way to trigger the unit via running timecode - like the NanoFlash? So, you're basically hitting the camera's record button and activating record on the HyperDeck.

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

The Tech Specs at the BMD site claims "NO CAMERA CONTROL".
Should that be taken at face value, i.e. manual start/stop with control buttons?

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

It also says a computer is required to adjust settings.

Btw, there is a 'studio' version with dual record slots and is rack mounted for around $1000.

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Pardon my ignorance, but will this work with the HDMI out on a Panny HMC-150?
And, even though that cam has an HDMI out, would I still only get 8 bit color?

FOR THE PRICE, this seems like it might be well-suited for much of what I shoot, i.e. equestrian barrel racing - short (20 sec +/-) bursts of horses running at full-gallop, intended for web and DVD.

And with a 2nd unit, could I hook that up to a laptop and external monitor, and swap SSDs to show footage shot just moments earlier?

Yes, all HDMI outputs from cameras are only 8bit even though the HDMI 'standard' supports up to 12bit (aka Deep Color).

Normally, I would suggest the nanoFlash or Atomos, but horses racing is extremely hard on all codecs so using uncompressed would significantly increase the quality. Btw, in the Convergent Deisgn forum (makers of nanoFlash), there is a thread showing how well various codecs handled recording a horse race. The 280Mb I-frame Nanoflash was noticeably superior to the Pro Res HQ.

I just want to add something I forgot when discussing one recorder versus another: the Aja Ki Pro Mini formats its cards to HFS+ only which makes like difficult for Windows users. Just to read the CF card, you must purchase a program for each computer. Secondly, many clients who want the CF card at the end of a shoot won't have a Mac to access the files.

Which brings me to my next thought: what does the Atomos use? Just found that it uses FAT32 - much SMARTER than Aja.

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Mac users of the Aja Ki Pro Mini of course will be pleased that the cards are formatted as HFS+ so as to avoid the 4GB file size limit of FAT32.

If they were formatted to NTFS then Windows users would be happy to escape the 4GB limit & Mac users would be happy too as Macs can read NTFS files without the purchase of additional software.

So I guess that both Mac & Windows users could be unhappy with the Atomos Ninja.

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

We currently use Fat 32 because it's the most compatible file system of all. The 4Gh chunks are not an issue because you can import whole folders and the chunks are laid out contiguously as if they were one clip. There's also a big advantage: if - for any reason - a recording stops (because of physical impact, or whatever) the MOST you're going to lose is 4GB - and not a whole hour-long clip.

We can do other file systems. It's just a firmware upgrade, but we'll stay with Fat 32 for now. We've had enough user feedback to know now that it's not a bit issue.

Dave Shapton
Atomos

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Hi Ray,

You don't need to. The SSDs are HFS+ formatted and mount on your desktop just like a Mac volume. The files are standard Quicktime files you can simply drag and drop off the SSDs, or play them directly.

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

The name of the device is very revealing. It is conceived more as a portable deck than a field recorder.

It can't control the camera, it is limited by its internal rechargeable battery (this could turn into major problem during a long shooting), it doesn't have readout screen, no latch for the SSD or mount options to be attached to a camera. Its more an expensive SSD deck, companion to a laptop, than a cheap field recorder. I think BM lost an opportunity to create a really breakthrough product with an amazing price, simply by positioning this product in the wrong segment.
I just hope to reconsider it soon, even if that means a price hike, because the idea of uncompressed field recording is ideal for a number of jobs, especially for budget feature films.

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

My guess is that we will see a "Deluxe" version in the near future.

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

As the unit is able to be powered by a 12V transformer - wondering if external batteries would be an option - given the limitation of the internal battery.

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Hi Kristian,
thanks for the tips.
Which is exactly the voltage range the shuttle will tolerate?
It needs 12V regulated or it's a friendly 11-16V or 5-16V?
Is the corsair force ssd ok? It 220MB/sec+ in read and writing! ;)
Which solution you adopted for mounting it on camera or rods? Has it 1/4 20 or 3/8 16 holes for mounting?
Or you will sell it with a bracket?
Have you some pics of the shuttle mounted to share? ;)
Thanks!
T.

Re: Hyperdeck: uncompressed w/5DMII?
 

hi all,

I was just reading up on the BlackMagic Hyperdeck recorder. I have the Sony FX-7 Video camera. I wonder if it will work with this camera? There are a few things I don't understand about what the info/says about this device. They talk about that this unit can use "low cost" SSDs? I was not familuar with low cost SSDs. I thought that all SSDs were expensive. I have read that Seagate is making a Hybrid SSD 500GB for about $130-150 USD. Would this work and if yes this is not to expensive.

Also, what exactly is the point for using compressed video like on a P2 card? I can just use my DV tapes if I want compressed video. Are P2 card less compressed than on my DV tapes? I would think the purpose of a device like this is to get away from compressed video and not to have to import the footage into my computer, of course.

I just wondered how this product and the Nija are able to record uncompressed HD on a single HDD? The Ninja is supposed to be able to use standard low cost 7200 RPM drives. When I need at least 5-7 7200RPM disk RAID to capture uncompressed HD to my computer. I am missing something i am sure. Because if someone has found a way to capture uncompressed HD on a single drive why cant they apply this technology to a computer?

John Gerard

Re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Hi John,

If you're shooting with an FX-7 (as I am myself), then you're probably not doing the kind of work that really warrants uncompressed video, like national broadcast TV spots. I have no experience yet with the HyperDeck Shuttle, but have used the Ninja on a few jobs and it works well with the HDMI out of HDV cameras, and eliminates the compression blocks seen in HDV footage.

To clarify, the Ninja does NOT record uncompressed video - it records to the Apple ProRes codec in your choice of LT, 422, or HQ quality modes. It's probably confusing because Ninja says it "records the uncompressed signal out of your camera", meaning the HDMI coming out of the camera is an uncompressed signal. ProRes is however compressed, though it is said to be "visually lossless".

I've shot stage events with the Ninja running several hours and used an inexpensive 500GB laptop drive ($79) and it performed perfectly. The Shuttle is obviously not meant for long-form recording of this type, really comparing apples and oranges. A 7200rpm laptop drive in the Ninja has no trouble capturing a single stream of ProRes.

Jeff Pulera
Safe Harbor