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-   -   Why I sold my Red and "downgraded" to a C100 (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-cinema-eos-camera-systems/520681-why-i-sold-my-red-downgraded-c100.html)

Eric C. Petrie December 18th, 2013 11:17 AM

Why I sold my Red and "downgraded" to a C100
 
Why I Sold My RED and Downgraded to a C100 | Fstoppers
This is a very interesting editorial. One users experience and opinions of two popular cameras. The C100 got a lot of guff when it first came out (and sometimes still does). The article includes some brief side by side comparisons. Please remember the final days of our C100+Lens package saving are upon us. Barely two weeks left. Save $550-$800 on kits with L-series lenses.
Professional Cameras | Portland, OR | Contact Us

Eric Petrie, epetrie@provideoandtape.com

Noa Put December 18th, 2013 12:40 PM

Re: Why I sold my Red and "downgraded" to a C100
 
It looks like he sold his red because he didn't know how to grade the footage, in the side by side comparison I prefer the red look, it handles subtle gradations in highlights and shadows much better then the c100 which has that video look, but at the price difference I would expect the camera to perform better.

Matt Davis December 18th, 2013 07:23 PM

Re: Why I sold my Red and "downgraded" to a C100
 
We-ell, we may be sounding a little harsh. :)

I battled with my desires long and hard to go to Scarlet - (never mind a switch to C300).

Looking at the Vimeo video, the Scarlet has a sort of high performance effortlessness with the tonality, the C100 is deffo kicking in with some in-camera sharpening, and the 8 bit nature cannot be denied. You have to shoot so you won't be grading too harshly with the C100, whereas the 12 bit raw nature of the Scarlet simply demands a grade from the get-go.

One can shoot a scene at 10 AM on the Scarlet, and if needs be, shift it to 4 PM or later (and vice versa, and 4 AM if you push the boat out). You're not going to get away with that on the C100. But with good conditions and a bit of good karma, yes - C100 can fulfill your dreams of a Scarlet image. But when the going gets tough, when you're moving beyond corporate and docco, into agency-lead commercials, Scarlet's there. As is Epic.

I'm not moving out of corporate or docco. My clients would like a Red style image, but won't pay for it. Like him, C100 suits my business better. I think we'd all encourage this guy to wind down the in-camera sharpening a bit, but still applaud him for his realism in balancing the business side of the camera choice equation. LOL - I want a Scarlet!

Richard D. George December 18th, 2013 09:59 PM

Re: Why I sold my Red and "downgraded" to a C100
 
Different horses for different courses. I would again refer folks to the review of the C100 by the Stillmotion people in Filmmaker Magazine. They love the C100 for much of their work, and they have Reds....

Darren Levine December 18th, 2013 10:56 PM

Re: Why I sold my Red and "downgraded" to a C100
 
same old story of different beasts. the takeaway from the writer was that he finally learned that you have to choose a camera which suits your needs above all else, good for him

red is built for maximum image flexibility, c100/300 is for maximum speed, and also can see in the dark. nowadays if im going into any under/uncontrolled low light shoot, you couldn't pry the C sensor out of my kung fu grip for anything else to date.

Jon Fairhurst December 19th, 2013 06:30 PM

Re: Why I sold my Red and "downgraded" to a C100
 
There are two truths:

1) Use the tools that suit your needs; not necessarily the ones that give the best possible image, and

2) Saying negative things about RED can lead to spirited comments. (Not here, of course, but after the end of the article. Yes, DVInfo's professionalism rocks!)

Erik Naso December 21st, 2013 08:27 PM

Re: Why I sold my Red and "downgraded" to a C100
 
It's important to use the right camera for the project. No sense in making it harder than it has to be just because you love technology.

Jim Martin December 28th, 2013 06:10 PM

Re: Why I sold my Red and "downgraded" to a C100
 
Looking at the Vimeo video, the Scarlet has a sort of high performance effortlessness with the tonality, the C100 is deffo kicking in with some in-camera sharpening, and the 8 bit nature cannot be denied. You have to shoot so you won't be grading too harshly with the C100, whereas the 12 bit raw nature of the Scarlet simply demands a grade from the get-go.

One can shoot a scene at 10 AM on the Scarlet, and if needs be, shift it to 4 PM or later (and vice versa, and 4 AM if you push the boat out). You're not going to get away with that on the C100. But with good conditions and a bit of good karma, yes - C100 can fulfill your dreams of a Scarlet image. But when the going gets tough, when you're moving beyond corporate and docco, into agency-lead commercials, Scarlet's there. As is Epic.
Matt-
Are we looking at the same video?...switch the C100 out for the Scarlet in these 2 paragraphs and it will match what I and 2 working DPs just saw in the video. It's REDinial.....

Jim Martin
Filmtools

Darren Levine December 28th, 2013 07:46 PM

Re: Why I sold my Red and "downgraded" to a C100
 
you missed the quote button :)

It also needs to be beaten in with a stick that any camera will fall short with an inexperienced operator.

Give me a seasoned, award winning DP with a $1000 camera of his/her choice over any up and comer DP with any camera they desire but haven't worked with extensively, be it an alexa, epic, phantom, etc....

It's not to say that an up and comer can't produce great results, the point being that experience usually trumps technology when it comes to dicey situations. and knowing the camera you use and it's abilities and weaknesses is far more important than something of a higher level that you aren't completely competent with

Matt Davis December 29th, 2013 04:00 AM

Re: Why I sold my Red and "downgraded" to a C100
 
Jim, I tried that little mind-game, swapping the designations, and I'm not sure how the result makes any sense. :) You're talking of 'Red Denial' - who are you accusing of denial, and denial of what?

I've worked with 8 bit, 10 bit and 12 bit rushes, and 10 & 12 bit rushes will accept far greater shifts in grading than 8 bit. A higher resolution image downsampled correctly will have better detail than a 1:1 image with sharpening. These are my observations and they're also generally accepted in the wider field.

Darren Levine December 29th, 2013 10:51 AM

Re: Why I sold my Red and "downgraded" to a C100
 
but matt, you're comparing apples to apple martinis...

my post above is about just that, knowing your tool and it's strengths and weaknesses.

Shooting with a c100, just talking about 8bit limitations doesn't help, you know that limitation going into it and if you are used to doing lots of pushing and pulling then you start in camera and get it closer to how you want it coming out of it so that they'res less pushing to do in post. you also transcode to a more stable compression before doing the pushing. add to that a ninja2 and you're now in the proper mindself of how one shoots with a c100 and is perfectly happy.

but if you're talking about ALWAYS needing that extra leeway, then by all means, demand all your footage be from RED. but you'd be limiting your mindset to think that a C100's image, when handled by an experienced operator cannot hold up to a scarlet. I'm not talking about looks, because of course each camera has a different look, and not resolution, because there's no sense in looking at a c100 if you require 4k.

and let's not forget that if you took both cameras and threw them into a low light torture situation, only one will come out with anything at all.

but seriously, they're both great, and the OP has made their point of view clear, the best tool for the application prevails, and apples to apple martinis.

Matt Davis December 29th, 2013 12:25 PM

Re: Why I sold my Red and "downgraded" to a C100
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren Levine (Post 1825939)
my post above is about just that, knowing your tool and it's strengths and weaknesses.

Darren, I think we're in the Larry Miller '5 Levels of Drinking' routine arguing about Astroturf (though I do claim innocence of the Apple Martini - must try it some time).

With the OP's thought in mind, I've been applauding his decision. I stand by my position (can one do that?) where my ego would like a Scarlet, and if I needed to shoot narrative, I'd be shooting 10 bit or beyond. Like the OP I shoot corporate (and with volume at that) so I must shoot AVCHD on my C100 and work with it. My sales department says 'use a C300', the R&D department says 'Shoot on BMCC', the Finance department says 'shoot on DSLR', and thankfully the Board agreed to shoot C100, so long as we keep the EX1s.

Trouble is, the Marketing department tends to put up mood boards of 4K 12 bit raw and the Red 'black boxes that do cool stuff' ... and I know many Agencies love this kind of thing and make hiring decisions based on that. So when your inner Ego and your inner Marketing Department find an opportunity to go Red, when ACTUALLY you should be going C300 or even C100 to meet the Finance Department half way, it's a sign of a sound business mind to end up with a C100. In My Humble Opinion.

So, how do you make an Apple Martini?

Darren Levine December 29th, 2013 12:34 PM

Re: Why I sold my Red and "downgraded" to a C100
 
ha, i can agree with you 200% on all of that

i think if the c100/300 did 10 bit 4:2:2 dnxhd or prores, this whole line would be blurred to a satisfying level for even most scrutinizing folks. that, and raw white balance like the gopro does and for some reason we don't get...

and i have no clue about how to make an apple martini, but it seemed like a better analogy than apples to oranges seeing as cameras all do the same thing, but in different flavors.

Jim Martin December 30th, 2013 11:58 AM

Re: Why I sold my Red and "downgraded" to a C100
 
Matt-
Sorry if I came off a bit harsh but you were sounding a bit homer on the RED while dissing the C100 with poor arguments that have been re-hashed too many times. In general with the Canons, what you see on the screen is better than the spec sheet. The REDs, while looking excellent on the spec sheet, need the best circumstances to look their best. The Canons seem to get the skin tones better from the start, grading or not....and low light, the Canons are the champ.
I think what I'm saying is with the REDs, you need a lot of add-ons and a lot of work/time=money in post so in many cases, not very practical. The Canons are ready to go and need less light which is HUGE....saving work/time & money. Production is hard enough and all I've ever said is why make it harder if you don't need to.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Matt Davis December 30th, 2013 12:34 PM

Re: Why I sold my Red and "downgraded" to a C100
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Martin (Post 1826028)
you were sounding a bit homer on the RED while dissing the C100 with poor arguments that have been re-hashed too many times.

As in Homer Simpson or more 'Homey'? I must bear in mind that my writing 'voice' is so influenced by Alan Coren, Douglas Adams and Stephen Fry that it may not 'travel well' (I will never be a 'Journalist'). But that goes for many of us here. LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Martin (Post 1826028)
what you see on the screen is better than the spec sheet.

My C100 is my 'little donkey' and whilst I love it to bits, I do reserve the right to whack it with a stick at times: what we see on the screen is *thankfully* not what we see in our edit software because Canon has blessed it with an LCD panel from a mobile phone half a decade old. It also continues to deliver rushes that require a little more work than it should do:

https://mattdavis.clarify-it.com/d/c100-psf

And I'm working on the ClipWrap/5DtoRGB/straight import story too (with added 4:2:2). It's not as straightforward as many think.

Now, the add-ons and workflow tweaks required are *nowhere near* the escalated heights of Scarletness, but IMHO you do need to invest some time (!) and some bucks (not much, but more than a crate of beer and some pizza) on the C100 workflow. ClipWrap and 5DtoRGB are both required purchases on the Mac platform in my humble opinion. And then there's the almost obligatory purchase of a Ninja. Not for every shoot, not even for 80% of your shoots. But hey, one day you'll know WHY you need one. Then there's that AF upgrade coming. How could you not?

So perhaps all I'm wittering on about is that I reserve the right to poke my C100 with a stick now and again because it's not quite as good as sliced bread. OTOH, if anyone has seen the film 'Babe', there are plenty of times when I can turn round to it and say 'That'll do, pig. That'll do."


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