$4000 for all-around filmmaking only purposes
 

Hi, I'm looking to get a T2i with a $4000CDN budget, and am having a rather hard time with breaking it down.

This is what I'm pretty set on:

Rebel T2i: $900
Zoom H4N: $350
Sennheiser ME66 Shotgun Mic: $450

Which leaves me ~$2300 for lenses. I understand that sharpness isn't a huge deal because I'm only using the thing at a maximum resolution of 1080p, however, I want very fast and otherwise good lenses. I certainly will be filming in dark locations, such as in a city late at night, so I really don't want to do anything over an f-stop of 2.8 if it's within my price range.

I'm really leaning towards the L-series lenses, but it's hard finding a good combination that's not pricey. For instance...

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM: $1250
Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM Standard Zoom Lens: $1300

would really hit my maximum, but it doesn't provide very wide angles which I'm sure I'll want.

I've looked at the "only 3 lenses" thread and the recommendations were really all over the place, so I wasn't really sure what to decide on. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance.

My 2 cents...
 

I've produced 4 full length features, and run the longest established indie film company in Michigan. Not rich or famous, but we've been able to carve out a place.

That said, if 4 grand is you're total budget, here's my advice:

1 - $900 means you bought the kit lens. Great - it's quite a deal for hundred bucks it costs. Now buy ONE fairly fast prime and you're done buying lenses. You can buy the 50mm/1.8 Canon lens for around $100 new - a great deal. Spend no more than $500 (and it better be wide and fast for that amount). Make it work - German glass is out of your budget, sad as that may be.

2 - Buy the $30 HTDZ mic - it's a battery powered 1/4" jack mic that works well for the T2. Remember, unless you're a freak like Nolan or Tarintino, 70% of all spoken lines are ADRed. The HTDZ is a big, pseudo-professional mic that comes with a sweet case and a mic shoe that fits the T2 perfectly. It will impress actors and boom operators (the only people that matter in this). Remember that phantom powered mics WILL NOT WORK for this cam, no matter what adapter you might have (believe me I've tried).

3 - Better budget for at least 2 (if not 4) 16 gig memory cards ($60-120), a memory reader (about $10), and an extra battery (any where from $10 to $60 if you buy the Canon battery - which I did).

4 - Boom pole - might want to go semi-pro for this buy - painter's sticks tend to rattle (although you can fill them up with expando foam). No more then $200.

5 - Lights. Not sure what sort of movie you're planning on, but buy one set of twin 450 watt work lights, 3 scoop lights with bright non-flouresant bulbs (so you can put them on your 10 dollar DIY dimmer), and three powerful mag flashlights (plus 3 3' X 5' white form boards bought at a dollar store), and you should be able to shoot anything. So, maybe a hundred bucks. Oh yeah, buy a dollar pack of wood (plastic will melt) cloths pins to pin your DIY tin foil gobos or gels on with.

6 - Camera movement/stabilizer - buy something small but solid for your tripod if you don't have one. You can build everything else DIY, from a nice stedi-cam to a million different PVC dollys. Hell, go crazy and get the $100 indie slider and a $200 tripod and you're still...

...Only at $1,600. Spend the rest on pizza, gels, beer, and condoms - remember, people make movies, not cameras. Listen to Robert Rodriguez - don't spend any money you don't absolutely have to. Keep it to the min and spend that extra dough when you REALLY need to. Like when your lead actor is in jail - or you run out of beer.

Good luck my friend!

john

John, thanks for your post.

$900 is for the body only, I'm just playing it safe. However, I DO have a Rebel T1i with the kit lens and an EFS 18-200mm. I didn't mention it before because I just don't think it's fast nor good enough, particularly in low light. So the T1i and two lenses is my obsolete photography kit. I have a couple memory cards lying around as well, so that's not a problem either. I also have a tripod.

I've heard lots of things on the (the 1.4 is $200 more), so I'll probably pick that up as per your recommendation, but I'm not comfortable with my current lenses, like I mentioned.

As for lighting I'm thinking of renting, but am not sure. I'll look into your recommendation (the budget sounds great), however I'm a pretty big fan of Kino-Flo kits.

The mic looks GREAT for its price, but audio is important to me. The ME66 has always been a sure fire shotgun for me. Remember, with the Zoom H4N I won't be plugging the audio directly into the camera.

I'd like a great stabilizer as well, this is something that's up in the air for me. As much as I love a good RedRock kit, it's pricey.

Oh, and I completely forgot about the viewfinder... Z-Finder or that other one is a must-get for me.

I have a great DIY solution for the Zacuto/Redrock gear if'n you're into it...I'll soon be posting my whole set up, all of which is under $100 and looks great... I swear I'll have it up this weekend!

Remember, all viewfinders are essentially small plastic boxes (like Magic: The Gathering or other game card boxes) with a 3x magnifying glass that are held on either by rubber bands or velcro. All are cheap. None of it is hard to make.

The 1.8 is one of the real bargains out there. If you don't have the kit lens, I bet you could pick one up never used for $35 - a super steal.

What kind of movies are you making BTW?

john

I'll probably go with an LCDVF viewfinder at about $180. Not too bad for the competition.

I mentioned that I do have the kits lens and an EFS 18-200mm with my T1i, but like I said, 3.5-5.6 is just not fast or good enough for either one of them.

I'll be filming narrative short and feature-length films, as well as a series of television-style online videos. The lenses must be good for any and all locations.

Why is the EFS 18-200mm not fast enough? I'd think a 3.5 is fast enough for out-doors or a studio setting...

John

It certainly is fast enough for outdoors or studio settings, however not fast enough for other indoor setups or outside in nighttime city environments. I'd rather have a lens that can do all of these lighting conditions.

John, I'm gonna agree with you on a few things but disagree on a few others.

Don't spend too big on lenses if you're on a budget. Those 2 L-series f/2.8 lenses still won't let you shoot in the dark. I'd suggest a set of old Nikon primes, maybe a 28mm f/2.8, definitely a 50mm f/1.8 and maybe an 85mm f/1.8. You should be able to get this whole set for well under $500 on ebay. If you want a really wide lens then the Tokina 11-16 f/2.8 seems to be one of the most popular.

Phantom powered mics WILL work, as long as you get an XLR adaptor which provides it, such as the beachtek DXA-SLR which also disables the auto gain. However, you'll get better quality (at the expense of syncing later on) with the Zoom H4n. A Rode NTG-2 offers comparable sound to the Sennheiser but is a bit cheaper. Add in a boom and for under $1000 you've got a fairly solid kit that will work with just about any camera you buy in the future - a sound investment (pun intended).

I've never made or worked on a full length feature but 70% ADR for spoken lines seems a bit dubious. With the per-day rate of big stars, I hardly think they're gonna pay to do every scene twice - (once on set for images and once in a recording booth). If they are not recording critical sound on set then why do they need sound-stages?

John #2, thanks for your very helpful post.

The more I look into this, the more I see that prime lenses may very well be the best way to go, however, I'm a composition nut. When I film, the framing is always very precise. This essentially means I need a wide selection of lengths to choose from. The three lenses you mentioned would go for about $500, so that pretty much means I have about another grand for more primes.

If I'm doing primes, I'd want at least four to five of them that are suitable for very low lighting conditions.

Let's count that Canon 50mm f/1.8 as one of them. What should the rest be? On a somewhat related note, when it comes to video, what's really the difference -- in purely video terms -- between a Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II and say L glass with the same specs that cost $1000 more? Is color accuracy, black levels or something that much more notable?

That DXA-SLR is very tempting to replace the Zoom H4N with. I despise syncing.

Rode NTG-2 seems like an interesting choice. I'll look into it.

I agree with you on ADRing. I've very rarely needed to do it.

:edit: It appears that the Zoom can be mounted with the camera. And it's cheaper. So I'll stick with the Zoom.

:edit #2: So I've done some looking around. Let me know what you all think of this:

1. Canon EF 28mm f/1.8 USM: $300
2. Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM: $350
3. Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM: $375
4. Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM $615

Totals $1640, with the T2i, Zoom H4n, ME66 (so sans lighting, viewfinder, boom, stabilization) = $3340.

I am really looking forward to seeing this.

Great lenses, but if you're buying just for film making, you're paying for auto focus mechanisms you won't use.

If it was me, I would be buying second hand manual focus lenses, which will give you equivalent results IMHO. You can spend the savings on some of the extras you mention.

I have bought 15+ such lenses from Ebay, never received a bad one, and each one has appreciated in value since I purchased it.

Right, I won't be using the AF on these lenses. Can you point me to these AF-less equivalents? I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for...

I'm thinking about taking out the 85mm and 200mm for a Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM at $1200...

I'm somewhat apprehensive since none of the lenses (including that zoom one) have IS on them. Which requires more stability on the rigging front... should I be apprehensive?

Having just actually done a shoot with the camera as a B cam (my curiosity got the better of me)

I would say look very carefully at the longer lenses. If hand holding then you're going to get jello at 85mm or greater. 50mm seems manageable. Unless you're locked down on a 200mm you're going to struggle. (not that anyone would hand hold 200mm anyway).

But i see a lot of people recommending 85mm and for me that seems a bit too jello'y. And what i mean by that is the wobble all over the image because of your hands and the focal length - not side to side slanting.

I'm very surprised this hasn't popped up more.

I've written more in the thread i'd started about lens choices.

cheers
paul

Hey Paul,

Thanks for your response. You have an interesting thread going on there. It's made me consider the Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8 over the Canon one. It's a lot cheaper, and the focusing issues don't seem to be as much of a problem for video purposes.

I obviously intend to be locked down for most of my shots. It's also how I direct; I'm not big on handheld.

So far:

Rebel T2i: $900
Zoom H4N: $350
Canon EF 28mm f/1.8 USM: $450
Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM: $350
Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8: $750
Rode NTG-2: $300
Rode Boom Pole: $150
LCDVF: $170
JAG 35 monitor: $260
JAG 35 DSLR Cage v2 full: $450

Total: $4130 without lighting.

Peter,

I've not used either of those lenses, although for video work i'm sure both would be fine from an image quality perspective.

However, as mentioned above, if you're ever going to hand hold it i really think you'd need IS for those sort of focal lengths and i don't believe the tamron has that, whereas the canon 70-200 f2.8 does.

Also what sort of travel is there on the focus side? I can't say for sure but ability to manual focus easily is going to be a factor, the more travel the better.

Perhaps someone with more direct experience can chime in here?

cheers
paul

Hi John, that lens doesn't have a constant aperture. It's f/3.5 only at the wide end. At longer focal lengths it stops down (f/5.6 at full telephoto). Should be useful at the wide end, though.

The primary discipline of shooting video with these cameras should be to always shoot from a tripod and avoid handheld whenever possible. Follow that practice and IS isn't necessary.

Yes that's true, but from a practical perspective i suspect there are lots of people out there that would consider using an 85mm handheld a doable option. After all one of the benefits of these cameras is the form factor.

Wasn't most of the house episode hand held (wide though - i've not seen it)?

I don't think many have considered the effects of jello though and I think it's a FYI. Some might consider post processed stabilisation but that won't work.

cheers
paul

I haven't seen the season finale of House either, but that doesn't matter because:

There's a big, big, BIG difference in handheld shot by a Hollywood camera operator. It's a highly skilled technique. No disrespect to any videographer here, but Hollwood handheld -- the type of handheld you see on network television -- is definitely not something that just anybody can do and expect to look as good.

But the form factor is precisely the reason why handheld video with these cameras should be avoided at all costs. It's not a benefit but a drawback. It's great for still photos but it's really lousy for video. That's the first thing I discovered when I got my EOS 5D Mk. II -- that and the annoying clicks on the audio track generated by IS.

I plan to alleviate the handheld issues a little bit with a decent cage pictured here:

http://jag35.com/new/wp-content/uplo...d-dslrcage.jpg

For everything else, a tripod.

Anyways, back on the lenses front: any other feedback in regards to using a Canon EF 28mm f/1.8 USM, Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM, and Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8?

I would really like some AF-free alternatives to save me money, and I would like to preserve the low apertures (<1.8), but can't seem to find anything yet. Any recommendations?

My observation is precisely because the audience here would consider hand holding and it's a warning.

But you see i personally would (and have) handheld at 85mm on a EX1 for example, but i can't on a dSLR because of the rolling shutter and lack of stabilisation. It's a nice focal length. And it's not about the steadiness but about the technical jello artifacts that i don't see people mentioning.

I'm just trying to help, because it's not something that can be fixed afterwards. I've had to 'fix' hand held shots in post before, fairly successfully, but there's no way i'm going anywhere near jello...

Our DoP has more than 30 years experience (and operating), so our observations i believe to be quite valid.

cheers
paul

We're on the same page, Paul -- it's just a friendly debate.

For Peter: I think one should have a way to go wider than 18mm.

Peter, if you want to save money then you can try those little gorilla pod mini tripods. because they bend you can create mounts that use your whole body as a base. Not as glamourous as the cage though!

Bearing in mind what Chris has just said then i assume you already have a decent tripod? What would you be doing with the 70-200? Because i'd second Chris about going wider. The 10-22mm looks fantastic but it depends what you're shooting?

cheers
paul

Yeah, I have a perfectly fine tripod for DSLRs (just not a heavy-duty one).

I'm going to stick with the cage because (as mentioned in a few posts back) I'm going to be getting a monitor and Zoom H4n to be mounted. The JAG 35 prices are a steal.

Chris: An 18mm is not a bad idea but at this point I'm over budget. If there's a way to work around all the lenses I have to include super-wide while maintaining budget then I'm in.

Detouring into lights for a second since they were mentioned,

I'm all for renting the big stuff when you need it. There is nothing like HMIs and Kinos for natural lighting in daylight situations with .

However, lately I've been playing around with some stuff I bought on eBay to sort of explore what some of our local indie guys could possibly use for some less demanding setups (my wife acts in some of these productions so I've gotten to know a few of these guys/gals). It seems that lighting is always a huge obstacle for these projects due to purchase/rental cost and less obviously, power and possibly heat requirements.

I'm going to post some eBay links as I can't seem to find this stuff anywhere else...

I bought one of these:

Video Photo Double Swivel Light Stand Umbrella Adapter - eBay (item 320447494082 end time Jun-08-10 23:24:57 PDT)

...and one of these:

Premium AC Socket Cord Set with Umbrella Holder Mount - eBay (item 330423844174 end time Jun-12-10 22:26:24 PDT)

(I later bought six more of the single socket heads)

And I went to my area home/building supply store and bought several different kinds of typical household screw in CFLs with daylight color temperature (5500-6500K depending on brand, etc...but you have to check the package as several manufacturers call 4000K "daylight") I have a few outdoor spots, a few soft spots, lots of spiral bulbs...and I used them on a project I did recently for my church with my existing umbrellas and light stands...and I shot with an EX1 at 23.976fps.

I shot in several environments where we had a window in the shot, or somewhere in evidence just out of frame. Obviously the wattage you'd get at a home store doesn't exactly match forces with a window on a sunny day, but you can use the window and now you have daylight fill sources that you can definitely use close-range, and several heads into a big white bounce surface increases your options as well.

I've since used a few of these on a shoot in a hospital room. The big window in the room is hard to conceal of course, so daylight color temp was necessary, but also the low electrical draw made me less frantic about where to plug in for power and what popping a breaker might affect.

For bigger output, a four bulb-into-one-socket fixture exists too:

Four Head Light Socket - eBay (item 270388943880 end time Jun-05-10 04:29:57 PDT)


I think for an indie shooter, having a handful of these types of heads and some inexpensive daylight bulbs can help to fill in a lot of gaps in daylight situations. These fixtures may seem cheap, but I've let them burn for hours without a heat problem (of course a CFL that is said to have 100 watt incandescent equivalent output actually only uses 23 watts), and the umbrella socket on the heads obviously allows the use of reflective, or "diffusing" umbrellas with the head as well.

So anyway...that's my latest musings about how to get some modest daylight capability into the hands of an indie producer who is stretching pennies.

It ain't Mole Richardson and I wouldn't stock a grip truck with it...(well, not the whole thing anyway), but these little lights are quickly becoming some of my favorite fixtures for daylight augmentation situations (where close proximity light placement is possible) where low heat and low power draw are big benefits...not to mention that they're small and light weight.

So...that should free up some cash for camera stuff...

Unfortunately that cage won't really alleviate the jello issues when shooting handheld. 'Jello' comes primarily from rapid up and down tilt of the camera, so you want to minimize that kind of tilting.

This is actually about rotation and what point in space the camera rotates about. When you handhold the camera it rotates around the center of the camera - which is in the center of your hands - and tiny movements of your hands translate into tilt of several degrees in the view. To eliminate this you want to move the rotation point away from your hands. Use a shoulder mount and now the rotation point has moved a foot or two away from your hands - to create a few degrees of tilt you really have to move your hands up and down.

A monopod does the same kind of thing and personally I find it the most versatile - when I want a shoulder mount I just collapse the monopod, filp it up and rest it on my shoulder. I have a carbon fiber one from Induro which cost about $100 and weighs almost nothing - it's probably the best accessory I've bought for the camera so far.

The cage you linked still maintains the rotation point right between your hands at the center of the camera. While the added weight and leverage may help a little, I wouldn't expect it to produce acceptably smooth handheld results.
Budget in $150 for Pluraleyes and you won't mind having to sync. I have a similar XLR box form Juicelink that I never use as the H4n is better quality and much more convenient.

Evan,

Good call on the monopod, i was thinking the same thing and it's nice to hear that it works for you. I think i will give that a go. For personal use when travelling i was looking at ways to make a nice lightweight kit. I have some clamps and various bits of grip so i can pop a slim fluid head anywhere i can get a clamping point but i didn't really want to go with a full on tripod.

Are there any decent shoulder mounts out there?

Also from a filtering perspective i do like the Lee filter system. I use this on other cameras too. Basically a collapsable wide angle matte box and a system for slotting in 4x4 or longer grads. The only downside to the Lee filters is that they are thinner than normal glass filters and therefore the holders will only work with the Lee range. However it is a easily transportable and fairly low cost solution. Worth a look.

I must hire a few IS lenses too to see if that really does help as i think it should. (they may not look good for motion though...)

cheers
paul

Thanks for these responses folks, all of which very useful.

Tim, that light setup seems pretty ambitious. I'll look into it since it does look very cost efficient.

Evan, the cage I posted is going to have future shoulder mount support from JAG35 (not sure if it works without the JAG35 cage though, Paul). Also, it's a way for me to mount a monitor and other equipment. My real concern of the cage is if it's really back-heavy with the handles in front of the entire thing: DSLR Cage v2 | Jag35.com -- what does everyone think?

Jag35.com
T2i DSLR v2 Cage: $150
Tripod Plate (Jag 35 6” Rods): $100
Handles (Jag 35 12” Rod): $100
D|Focus v2 w/ 1 Gear: $170
Jag35 Monitor: $250
LCDVF Viewfinder: $160
Monitor Battery Pack: $70
2x Micro Ballheads: $30
Shipping: $53
Total: $1083 w/o tax

Other:
Rebel T2i: $900
Zoom H4N: $350
Canon EF 28mm f/1.8 USM: $450
Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM: $350
Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8: $750
Rode NTG-2: $300
Rode Boom Pole: $150
Total: $3250 w/o shipping or tax

Grand total: ~$4500

Still a bit pricey, considering I still need a matte box at least.

So I'm biting the bullet tomorrow and am considering a last minute decision as far as lenses go (I've also refined things a bit). The Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8 is a keeper, but as for the wider lenses I have to decide between:

Both the Sigma Wide Angle 24mm f/1.8 EX with a Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM for $850

OR I can get a Tamron AF 17-50mm F/2.8 SP XR Di II VC for $550

Understand that some time down the road I'll be using either the 24mm or the 17-50mm for handheld uses, and that the Tamron has vibration compensation. The Tamron also goes wider, and is cheaper.

On the other hand, the other two lenses are faster by at least a full stop, for which low-light shoots will be important. Also, being primes, they're sharper (somewhat irrelevant for video though) and probably better overall image quality.

Sorry for the double post, but could anyone chime in?

:edit: I'm so tempted to cut some corners a bit and save a few, however I think I'm going to be going with the 50mm AND the 17-50mm. That f/1.4 is just so important for real low-light shoots I think.

Fortunately, I'm not losing any money since the Sigma's the same price.

Pretty much did what John said with the exception of lights. Got my 550d/T2i from digitalrev for £641(550d with 18-55mm lense, 50mm 1.8, 16gb transcend and loads of other accessories) from HK. That incluedes import and tax duty. Bought some other lenses, and goodys. Seriously, good tips John. Thanks.

In my professional opinion, your selected audio gear is your weak link in this equation.
Save your money and hire an audio person with professional gear when needed. Just like you would with a light kit. Otherwise you really need to add something along the lines of an SD302 that has quiet Mic Pres, as the Mic Preamps in the Zoom are just not up to the challenge.

And before the bashing starts, yes I own an H4n.

Good Luck with your search!