Some 5D Mk. II notes on AE, and images of the camera and box
 

Found out yesterday how the Canon 5D Mk. II handles exposure during its video recording mode: exposure is auto when recording HD video, and is adjusted by the camera in a particular order which is based on creating as little audible camera noise as possible so as not to affect the sound that's also being recorded.

The AE adjustment order is ISO (gain), followed by shutter speed, followed by aperture.

The idea behind this is that changing the ISO is an electronic function which does not generate audible camera noise, so it is prioritized as the first parameter to be adjusted by the AE function. Shutter speed is next, but HD video recording in the 5D Mk. II is limited to a narrow shutter speed range of just 1/30th sec. to 1/125th sec. Finally, the aperture is changed only as a last resort due to the physical noise generated by the camera's mechanical iris blades (heard as a series of clicking sounds).

Exposure can be locked, of course, which freezes all of the AE adjustment parameters (ISO, shutter, aperture) into their current positions. You'd have to use the manual exposure "trick" described in our Canon HV Series forum, using a bounce card or some other source to force your desired exposure, and then lock that exposure which will prevent the AE from working, and then compose your shot before starting the recording.

In the photos below (click to see 'em big), a Sennheiser MKE400 stereo mini-shotgun mic is attached to the 5D Mk. II's hot shoe and is plugged in via the 1/8th-inch stereo mini jack on the left side of the camera (thanks Mike). This or most any other external mic will be highly preferable to using the camera's built-in mic; however there is no provision for manual audio level adjustment, and worse, no way to externally monitor live audio recording through headphones. The camera has a standard AV output jack, which on Canon digital video camcorders (such as the current VIXIA line) can be reconfigured via menu to function as a headphone output -- unfortunately that critical feature has not been included in the Canon 5D Mk. II's menu system.

Also shown below is the retail packaging which hopefully we will all be seeing very soon.

If it only adjusts aperture as a last resort, what aperture does it keep the camera at until that last resort?

I thought I had heard you could use exposure compensation and then lock the AE, true?

I guess the use of a light meter could come in handy again to establish what to "trick" the camera to. Ya think?

Thanks for posting this info!

1. The aperture value that it sets in the first place is going to depend on how fast the lens is that's mounted on the camera. For example, you might have a fast f/1.6 prime lens or you might be using a slower variable-aperture zoom lens, one that might be f/3.5 at the wide end and f/5.6 at the telephoto end. So the answer is that it all depends, on what the maximum aperture value is for a given lens at a given focal length. If f/4.8 is the fastest the lens can go, then that's what the camera will use.

2. Yes, you can use Exp. Comp. with AE.

3. The camera already has a built-in light meter; it'll tell you what to expose for based on what it's pointed at, and which metering mode you've chosen. But sure, a handheld light meter is always a useful thing to keep nearby.

Thanks Chris. That is interesting to know because that could effect lens choices. Since some folks may not WANT to shoot anymore wide open than f/2.8 or so, they may not want to purchase a lens that will do f/1.2 or the camera may force you into using it, giving you too little depth of field.

In the Canon line of lenses there are the "Magic" Lenses.... those will make this camera earn its money....

Some of the magic...

35mm
50mm
85mm
100mm
200mm 1.8 ( if you can find one )
300mm

I can't wait to put a tilt/shift on this cam... :-)

just remember, if you get a fast lens... 2.8 or faster you can always dial in a slower number... (greater f stop) but you can't get a slow lens to go faster....

A lens faster than 2.8 will have to have some form of filter ( polarizer, ND filter ) on the front if you plan on using it full open in bright light...

From what I understand, I don't think this is the case. You have no manual control over the aperture (in video mode). I'd love to use the 50mm f/1.2 L series lens. However, if in low light the camera is going to force me to use f/1.2 I won't like it. I'd rather use f/2.8 and bump the ISO up a bit more. So I may go with the 24-70mm f/2.8 L series zoom lens instead.

I completely agree that having a nice selection of ND filters in the bag is going to be needed to continue maintaining the desired depth of field on bright sunny days.

Seems like it would be very worthwhile to get lenses that have built in aperture rings for manual control over aperture. from what i understand, no canon ef lenses have this? I am more familiar with Nikon F and Canon FD lenses, so someone will have to confirm this for me. Perhaps 3rd party EF lenses have an aperture ring? otherwise it might be worthwhile to put some nikon lenses on this. Still will be a pain that you'll pretty much be stuck always shooting with an open shutter (1/30th)... Sounds like it would be in iso 6400 before it closes the shutter down from 1/30th at all. It will be its own look. It'll be like all those people who shoot with spinning ground glass 35mm lens adapters that have to shoot at 1/24th or 1/30th shutter all the time because they cant get enough light into the lens otherwise... only this will look so much cleaner and not still be underexposed.

If someone who knows more about what lenses would offer manual aperture rings, it would be great if you could share your knowledge. My understanding is that all the old old lenses have them, most of the new new lenses do not (especially certain lens mounts), and in between its sort of all over the place. Fortunately EF mount has a relatively short registration distance so it should be quite easy to adapt most other lenses to work on the 5dmk2, except for old canon FD lenses, that is. A lot of video guys ive met who use 35mm adapters dont seem to care that much about registration distance or infinity focus (then again, DPs dont, ACs do), in which case adapting any lens would be easy. If anyone knows of any great lenses that definitely have aperture rings, please share.

There are converters for Canon FD lens to Canon EF body. I will probably pick one up just because it may be useful and cheap. FD lenses cost a lot less, are more common, and have manual controls. Besides, I already have a set :)

The adapter is about $35 on ebay, and has some corrective optics to restore infinity focus.

The manual says you can use AE lock in movie mode... I'm taking this as choose exposure,
choose aperture and lock them down... what I also see in the manual is that you do not
have control over the ISO... ???

Really? an adapter with optics that fixes the registration distance incompatibility between EF and FD? i know they exist but i thought it would be more expensive. i wonder how it affects the quality of the lens. Of course just know that some canon FD lenses dont close the aperture when you turn the ring unless you have a way of pushing down the mechanical lever on the back of the lens. you can shove something in there, or use a part that comes with FD macro extension tubes (had one of these but cant seem to find it). I believe canon lens focus rings turn the correct way as opposed to nikon lenses which turn the other way, for those of us that are used to video/cine lenses.

I was using the FD lenses on a SGPro, to release the iris controls all I had to do is add a bit of hot glue on the back.

I'm not sure about the quality of the corrective optics used in the FD to EF adapter, or even if they work at all! I would not be surprised if it had some negative side effects, however, I think its worth a shot.

Here is the adapter I was talking about:
Canon FD Lens to EOS EF Body Mount Adapter made Japan - eBay (item 110306838150 end time Dec-01-08 17:28:32 PST)

Wow, that's a deal for using FD lenses on EF bodies if it works. If anyone has one of these or gets one, be sure to let us know how well they work.

Chris, thanks for the info!

Is it possible to see which aperture, shutter and ISO values are in use when in movie mode? I ask this because the manual says "The shutter speed and aperture displayed in the Live View screen when the shutter button is pressed halfway are for shooting still photos," so I'm inferring that they may not be identical to what's in use for the movie capture.

Does it make any difference whether you're in P. Tv, Av or M modes when shooting movies?

-Stu

Forget the cheap FD to EF lens convertors, I tried one years ago and they are truely bad, very soft. They also cause a light loss if I remember correctly. Canon made a very good FD to EOS adapter for a short while, this worked as a teleconvertor and was only usable on long lenses like the 300 f2.8 and above.

If you want simple cheap lenses that work on an eos mount in manual mode try an old Tamron adaptall 2 lens (not the newer ones) with this Tamron adaptall-2 Lens to Canon EOS adapter+worth$6 cap - eBay (item 160285294659 end time Nov-19-08 17:02:27 PST) The old 180mm f2.5 and 90mm f2.5 were stunning.

Also any adapted Nikon lens. Even the latest G ones will work with this adapter Nikon G - Canon EOS Adapter

Also look at adapted Contax fit or Leica fit lenses. You can get Contax mount lenses from the likes of Sigma, Yashica and Tokina for low cost.

Try here Alternative Gear & Lenses - FM Forums for plenty more info.

A vari ND or stacked polarizers may be the best way to achieve the desired aperture whether you use EF lenses or adapted lenses.

Dan

You said its been a few years, do you think its possible they have improved? Do you know who manufactured the adapter you tried?

I don't really mind spending the extra cash on new Canon lenses, but it would be nice if I could just adapt the ones I already have and am happy with.

Can't remember the make (not sure it even had one!) but I looked again recently and the design does not seem to have changed on the ones sold here in China. Also they one I had a magnification factor as well, not good. On the whole I think that you can forget FD on EOS sadly, unless you want dream effect video.

Dan

You can also unlock exposure and relock it through a custom function while shooting with no disruption. AF is near useless while shooting, based on the the need to open the iris fully to focus.

The files are amazing quality though, just take some work arounds and some careful focusing.

Stephen, I sure hope you decide to get one of the 5DMKII cam's..... I know there are
a few of us that would like to see what you can do with one knowing your style...

should be interesting.. :-)

Hi Stu,

I'm pretty sure it's just a matter of pressing the shutter release halfway.

I don't think so, but I'll try to find out.

It amazes me just how far and wide this thread has been linked, after just a couple of weekend days. It's been discussed at DP Review (where somebody copied my retail box photo and cropped out the DVi watermark -- but at least they provided the link to this thread), and also at a popular Canon photo forum site (where somebody wondered aloud if my photo of the retail box was fake). As a result, this particular forum is suddenly the most popular of all the boards we have here.

So far, the strangest of all is this Chinese thread: http://forum.xitek.com/showthread.php?threadid=575745 -- my photos and the complete text of my post are copied there in full, but either Google's language tools are making a mess of the translation, or they've got some interesting code speak for everything. Oh well... thanks for the massive traffic spike, you guys! Heh.

Hey Chris, I posted your pictures and link on the Chinese thread, apology for the unnotice. but was thought about spread your happiness with other side of the world. hope you don't mind. Regards,
Dallas

Hey Dallas, no worries -- I wasn't really complaining about it! And yes I definitely appreciate what you did, thanks. I just figured out why the thread on that site confused me so much... the posts there are listed in the opposite order that they are here (in other words, on that site the most recent replies are at the top instead of the bottom). When I finally realized that, it made more sense -- besides, the Google translator is far from perfect in my opinion. Thanks again,

Hi Chris, that site is most popular in Asian speaking region, interestingly some rumor come from that site, then cycle the world go back on it again. on that post, they just very excited looking forward to the Canon 5d2 actually shipping and very jealous that you are the lucky guy be the first one get retail box openned and put your hand on. Cheers.

Chris, maybe you should have done one of those odd unboxing videos, you might have even more hits :)

Dan

Those optics are why Canon still photogs don't use FD lenses. This is discussed every month on Canon forums.

The EF mount 35/2, 50/1.4 and 85 1.8 are better choices than FD lenses that won't be good enough.

Okay, I see... heh. Well yes that was indeed the retail box, but that particular one belongs to a person at Canon USA. I just happened to be in the same room, at the right time. I said, "would you mind holding that box so I can take a photo of it." And I got to hold the camera for a little while and look through it with two lenses (that zoom and the 24mm prime).

Yeah... the ubiquitous un-boxing video. Let me just say, I can understand the value of an un-boxing video one time, if it's done right, as a way to verify that the contents of your camera kit match what the manufacturer claims to include, because there are some disreputable sellers out there that will take things out of the box and try to sell them separately. So sure, there is a usefulness for an un-boxing video. Once.

What I don't get though, is this strange trend for many people to stage these elaborate, ritualistic un-boxing productions as if they're some kind of homage to the manufacturer. Show me *one* that lets me see what I'm supposed to be getting. And after that, what's the point of all these different folks producing un-boxing videos of the exact same type of camera (or phone, or whatever)? I don't get it.

At any rate, that particular 5D Mk. II box had already been opened before I got to it. In all honesty I'm not going to lose too much sleep over having missed out on the opportunity to shoot what would have been the first 5D Mk. II un-boxing video... I'll happily concede that glory to someone younger, eager and more passionate than me. It's true that I am a geek... but I just can't measure up to that level of geekiness.

I draw the line at the box photo. That's as far as I go. I suppose I'll always lament that potential site traffic though.

Chris, bottom line it for someone who makes indie films - is this camera (or the Nikon) going to be a viable option for feature guys? Assuming we're willing to use all the work-arounds listed?

This thing is exciting me more than when the JVC100/HL1 et al came out...

But it seems too much to hope for.

john

Chris, it's just camera-porn—a traditional symptom of decadent capitalism. My wife calls it fauxnography.

I've looked closely at the D90 - and crossed it off my list. The aliasing and codec artifacts are just too harsh. And recording from HDMI might bypass the coder, but the aliasing is even worse. You can get *much* better and cleaner resolution with HDV.

One exception would be where you want shallow DOF in low light, and plan to really junk it up with noise and other effects. You wouldn't use the D90 for beauty shots.

Of course, if you plan to buy a ~$1k D-SLR for stills anyway, the D90 is a fine choice.

The 5D MkII is another story. If you accept the workarounds, it might just be viable. My only concern from the video I've seen is in regards to noise reduction and limited bit depth. For shallow DOF in low-light at less than $3k, nothing compares.

Then again, the Scarlet/Epic announcement could come as soon as 24 hours from now...

The D90 aliasing can be removed in post.

Scarlet is going to make things interesting for sure, but I am still getting the 5D Mk II.

It will be a long time until the general public can really get their hands on Scarlet, maybe even as long as 2010 since current RED One camera owners have priority.

I posted a link to this thread and an excerpt to the Digital Wedding Forum. I hope that was OK. Thanks for the information!

When you remove aliasing, you lose resolution. So much for HD.

Where the D90 really falls apart is where there are a lot of details, due to the compression. Cobblestones will be sharp in some areas, but turn to mush in others. Same with leaves, waves, etc.

I really wanted to love and buy the D90, but it didn't happen.

Jim claims that they should clear the backorders by Fall 2009. We will see...

I expect Scarlet to beat the 5D2 in picture quality, video-related features, and audio, but not until after NAB. For the time being, the 5D2 is the king of low-light DOF on a budget.

I wonder what 5D2 rental prices will be...

I agree, the D90 just won't cut it.

The 5D2 picture quality not perfect. I don't doubt Scarlet will beat it but I bet it will still have the advantage in some regards. What I don't expect is Scarlet to have a sensor anywhere near 35mm size, competitive low light performance (especially with a fixed zoom lens), or an interchangeable lens mount. I hope I'm wrong, I'm looking forward to Scarlet too but I'm not looking forward to returning to 35mm adapters. I don't mean to start more Scarlet speculation, so I will leave it at that.

We will know soon, about 23 hours remaining :)

Looks like Nikon is due to make a possibly significant announcement too.

Yeah, we'll find out soon enough about Scarlet.

The one thing we can be pretty certain about is that Scarlet will have nice bit depth, based on RED's RAW format. Maybe they'll announce Redcode2, but we can be pretty sure that they won't take a step backward in this regard. We can also bet that Scarlet will have more frame rate options.

So, if Scarlet is <35mm and has a fixed lens, it won't match the 5D in low light DOF, but you'll be able to color grade the snot out of it, compared to anything else this side of a RED ONE (or film). At that point it all depends on the context: use the 5D for a shallow DOF romance; use Scarlet for a wildly colored horror film.

As always, there's not a single "best." There's a best choice for each specific job.

Speaking of which, our next project will have a film noir look. We don't necessarily need a shallow DOF. And our color grading will be a piece of cake - mostly de-saturation. What we need are good, clean shadows without crushing the blacks, and clean, detailed textures. (And we need some good post tools for adding realistic, film-like grain.) We'll probably rent a Canon A1 or H1, given Scarlet's schedule.

Hi Chris and all. I'm not sure I understand. I can choose exposure (pointing the camera where I want the camera to expose) and I can lock that exposure for my shot, but I have to live with different gain levels between (different) shots since ISO IS FIRST in adjustment order?
Isn't this a major problem for you?

Maybe I miss something related to the Canon HV AE lock "trick" you mention. Can you point me to the right thread?

Many thanks.
Alvise

Hi Alvise, the order of change that I listed is effective only when the camera is left in AE. Once you lock the exposure, nothing changes from that point forward (until you unlock it). Hope this helps,