yes, I can confirm that it is perfectly smooth in a 1920x1080 Best/Full preview.

Just to let others know, I have downloaded latest version that was posted for Premiere users who were having problems, and I actually use Vegas. I was having problems getting the earlier version of Scene to work. It would not convert my first test 5dii files. I actually had it loaded side by side with my Neo HDV, as David Newman had suggested in another thread.

After loading this version, and uninstalling NeoHDV, conversions are fine, and even show the wider range we have been looking for to show up, at least on the highlight side. I demonstrated this to myself by loading a converted file on one line of Vegas, and the .mov file right off the camera on another, and in toggling back and forth, the converted file highlights had detail where things were blown out on the camera raw files.

I had hoped I would be able to keep NeoHDV running on the system at the same time, as I do like the conversion capabilities it gives, and I will keep trying to get it to run beside NeoScene.

Excellent. I'll be getting NeoScene before our next project goes to post...

Make sure you try the trial before buying to be sure it does what you want. Also, if you decide to buy it, don't miss the special at videoguys.

Thank for the info Keith.. I'll make sure to try it out on my system... I think this issue is serious enough that it's worth a format / reinstall of OS if indeed it is software conflicting with NeoScene..

yeah, I'm feeling the same way but I'm trying to avoid actually doing it so I don't have to go through all the stupid software activation hassles.

I've created a new thread here because I think it is quite important, and I don't want it to get buried... this thread is quite busy! Also, it isn't directly related to Cineform, although I'm hoping someone from Cineform will know the answer for certain.

Edit: this would have been an easy sale except they want to charge me $50 for shipping... yeah, no thanks, I'll download it right from cineform.

Mac and fcp studio and 5d markII
 

On the various postings on other threads for cineform and neo scene, everything is about vegas, premier, windows and the all the problems. How is neo scene working with fcp. Highlights and shadows, making files easier to work with, 4:2:2 for green screening. In other words, should this be an instant download??

Thane, I checked with the authors of CoreAVC and they said that you are indeed correct. They are working on adding an option, which will allow you to specify either 601 or 709. This may all be moot for me at least, since it looks like Cineform has licensed the most recent MainConcept h.264 decoder for all their products. NEO Scene already has it. I'm guessing that the upcoming new versions of Prospect HD and NEO HD will also have it.

Note to all that if you're seeing sizes go up this much, check if you have Nero 7 installed. It can cause problems for some reason. My NeoScene was producing 1gb sized files out of like 250mb source, which would then crash After Effects CS4, etc.

I un-installed Nero 7 and now no problems.

4X doesn't seem out of hand. 3X is normal for me with the latest Neo Scene and it edits fast. The lowest I've ever seen was 2X. Considering that it is lossless, these are amazingly small file sizes.

Edit: I always use the high quality setting.

Edit2: I don't have Nero. Quit using it a few years ago after support refused to admit a serious problem.

Heh, heh, Their whole bloated Nero software suite is a multimedia plague locusts, that will, in time devour your PC. What happened after those first few Nero versions? These days, Nero is unforgiving. It installs codecs and other DirectShow filters. Then it unilaterally decides that its filter merits should supersede anything that you already have installed. Nero is like a malevolent freeware codec pack that's run amok. It's now, also aptly named, as it fiddles about with the internal workings of your computer, while it also sets it on fire. Aaargh! Enough of my neo-Nero rants.

BTW Cineform isn't lossless, it's "visually lossless". Render about 4 or 5 generations on the "High" setting and you will begin to see a few compression artifacts. But how often are you going to do that?

CFHD is still the best intermediate codec out there. It's fast, the files are of a reasonable size and their tech support is great. Further, unlike most software companies these days, they are in tune with their customers (sorta the anti-Microsoft) and are constantly making improvements and adding features.

I did want to add to my previous post to Thane that the people at CoreAVC also told me that the PC setting is fixed at 709 and the TV setting is 601.

Ok, I wasn't going to tell my Nero rant, but I just can't resist. It makes me feel good to share such stories (I must be evil at heart).

I was having trouble processing any output from Premiere CS3 with the Nero movie thingie. I narrowed the problem down to Nero by finding the most vanilla DV I could find, testing the DV with every player, putting it in Premiere, did no editing, and outputting vanilla DV. The premiere output played perfectly in every player of about 6 kinds. When Nero Movie was told to open the file it immediately (0.1 secs) popped up an error box saying the file was corrupt.

I emailed Nero support and they immediately gave me a standard response, that they can't support every video file because many files are non-standards-compliant. I email back and explained in detail how this couldn't be the case. I got the same form response back.

I tried one last time and asked for some higher level of support tech to read my story or I'd never use them again, but you guessed it, the same response came back.

So no more Nero.

Synch Issues
 

I posted over in the Cineform forum, but I am wondering if others are facing sound synch issues on long converted file. Most of my shooting has been in short 2 minute and under recordings. However, I just happended to shoot a "talking head" shot.

In the .mov file everything is synched perfectly. But in the conversion file, as you slide down toward the end of the file, it gets more and more out of synch. David Taylor suggested that I change playback configuration and I did that, but it does nothing for playing the files in Media Player or Media player classic, or on the Vegas time line. Only way I can fix it is chop up sound track in Vegas.

I am wondering if it has to do with frame rate 30 FPS v. 29.97 or some issue like that.

I know there hasn't been a lot of stuff shot of voice and talking heads, because of othersound issues with this camera, but for those that are, have you seen similar issues ?

I also noticed that Cineform-converted video claims 29.97 for the output frame rate. I haven't done anything of note with the onboard audio though.

You might need to ungroup the audio and video and then change the frame rate to 30.0.

The new version of the CoreAVC decoder (1.95) now has an option that allows you to select the input color space

That's great, but it is a bit odd that they let you "auto-detect" the output format. Think about that for a second.

On my thread about the 869 MB, 12 minute clip, there's a quote from Canon support which says the 5D mk II actually records as 29.97 fps, even though they call it "30 fps".

Julian

Chris.. what if you take the transcoded video and line it up with the audio from the original MOV file, does the sync drift still exist?

Yang: Spot on question. And my look at it tells us a lot ! I put the two on two different time lines.

The .mov clip ends at 4:55;23. The Cineform .avi ends at 4:45;01. That tells me that the Cineform render added 8 frames. That final 8 frames has a noisy but otherwise "no sound" bit of sound track that does not match anything. I am attaching a view of the time line.

The sound tracks from the .mov file and the .avi file, except for the rogue 8 frames at the end appear to match. So at the end of the clip, the cineform video is about 4/15's of a second behind the sound track.

Follow up: On the Vegas time line, I took and readjusted length of clip using the control key, and sliding the end of clip back to where it ended at the same place as the .mov clip ended. At that point, it looks like sound was synched pretty well. Of course that is a fix, but it also means a re-render of the entire time line to get it matched up. And what happens when I use the intermediate in Vegas-- am I back in the same boat ?

Chris: This is happening with every Transcoded clip? Does it only occur with 5D2 clips or other clips as well? I'm planning using NeoScene with my new HMC as well.. this is not looking good...

Yang:

First, I just started using NeoScene because of the 5D. Before, I had NeoHDV, and never had a problem. For the three week I have had the 5D, I haven't really had to look closely at synch issues. I suspect they were there. But that it is a 5D 30p problem. Cineform is always good about addressing our issues when they come up. They monitor these forum, and fly in with resolutions in short order... if there is one...

The problem is that Canon, in it's infinite wisdom, "called it" 30 fps in the freakin' header of the mov file, which then proceeds to screw up any decent app or NLE that pays attention to the header information. Sometimes, with respect to video in the 5D2, I wonder if they would have been better off using some random users from the Internet than their own engineers, doh!

Personally, in my opinion, this NEEDS TO BE FIXED asap by Canon.

Funny thing was in Check Westfall's last tech tips, even he was ignorant of the issue and played off the drift issue as a 30p thing. We made comments in that post of his, and although he responded to everyone else, he didn't respond to our comments. Canon needs to get a clue on this.

(BTW, I may be a little biased considering I had to send my BRAND NEW 5D2 into warranty because it became useless with Err 20 lockups not to mention a hot pixel in video mode that can't be mapped out by the user -- yup, that's not one, but TWO DEFECTS, straight out of the box.)

I have to disagree somewhat. While Canon may have a header labeling issue, the company preparing transcoding should be looking at actual file structure in designing its transcoding software. I would expect that Cineform would have done so. Neo Scene had 5D support specifically added to it. I suspect that there is more to it than just a header issue, but I hope I am wrong about that.

Yeah, that's a semantic blooper. Basically, it means whatever you set the input to, that's what the output will be.

Don't take for granted that the 30fps header is incorrect. I have heard both 29.97 and 30 as the true frame rate at different times directly from Canon, and all of our tests indicate that it truly is exactly 30fps. On a 10 minute clip, separately recorded audio syncs perfectly with the footage playing back at 29.97, AFTER you slow down the audio to 99.9% of the original speed. This would indicate that the video was really 30fps, but who knows how headers and such are effecting the software when I attempt to manually reinterpret at 29.97.

Hopefully we will hear something from one of the David's on this issue shortly. And Cineform, as a developer, may have some kind of information on that oft "rumored" firmware update, and may be some reason to wait on that.

Dave Posted New Beta
 

For those who have been following, David Newman just posted a new beta of NeoScene, which appears to me to resolve the synch issues.... I did one conversion of a long file, and seems to match well now.

Chris,
Thanks for the positive report.

Anyone have the Nero issue? That should also be fixed, just looking for add end user confirmation.

Apparently, Canon USA support doesn't even know, since I contacted them via email recently and they still claim that the frame rate is 29.97 (NTSC). The text of their response is posted elsewhere in the dvinfo forums:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/1029179-post6.html

But that said, I have no idea what the frame rate in the 5D2 MOV files is and as you stated, the frame rate value stored in the MOV file metadata could be "goofing up" any attempt to figure that out. The audio and/or the video tracks of the original MOV file could be being decoded incorrectly, if the header information is used and the true frame rate really isn't 30.00 fps.

I do know that up until the most recent update to NEO Scene, the converted CFHD files also had the frame rate in the metadata as 30.00 fps. At least, that issue has been addressed. Keep in mind also, that the problem of the A/V synchrony isn't that obvious, because the maximum duration of a 5D2 clip is only about 11 minutes, depending on content. That's less than 20 frames of "slop" in the longest possible converted file. It is still an unacceptable result, but for shorter clips, the lack of synchrony gets less and less noticeable.

It wouldn't surprise me at all that if there is another firmware upgrade for the 5D2 and the frame rate is officially changed to 29.97 for 30p files.

That would make a lot of sense - in conjunction with 25p support (and hopefully 24p and/or 23.97p.)

Frankly, 30p doesn't satisfy anybody. If they were to change it to 29.97p without adding 25p, that would just dis the European/PAL market even more.

I have difficulty getting my pea sized brain around all of this sometimes. What Cineform has done here is changed the playback rate, right ? David indicates here, and elsewhere that there are not frame blendings or anything like that, only that audio is pitch filtered and stretched to meet the new frame rate as employed by the Cineform intermediate.

So, on an esoteric level, because it doesn't mean much to me in the max 12 minute clip one way or the other, which frame rate runs true to a real time clock ? I know when I drop the camera file and the new Cinframe file on parallel time lines in Vegas, the camera's file ends about 8 frames faster in a five minute clip than the Cineform transcode file on a time line set up using the Vegas intermediate preset. All this has me thinking of time warps and theory of relativity....

We believe real-world clock rate for the Canon 5D MkII is 30.0. As that is mostly useless, we have now conformed the output to 29.97. I'm guessing the camera will be updated to 29.97 (and other rates) at some point.

Wow, that's one hell of a prediction there. Here's to praying that ends up being true. I mean the 29.97 would be nice, but "other framerates," now that gets my attention! Do you know something we don't, heh...

I know nothing more than other Canon outsiders. There have been rumors about firmware video fixes and 24p coming, I'm guess a video fix might include 29.97. Of course with Neo Scene you don't need to wait for that particular fix.

This is why it's hard to a) Understand why Canon used 30.00 fps and b) test whether it's really 30.00 fps. But I digress. Every independent test shows that on a 29.97 timeline, the original 5D2 MOV files will be out of sync with separately recorded audio and/or video of the same footage. That leads everyone who has tested this (except Canon) to conclude that the MOV file is truly 30.00 fps. I've moved on from that a while ago, just because, until Canon does something about this, the only option is to work around this issue. If the only thing that you are editing is one or more 5D2 MOV files, than this issue is somewhat lessened, because you are going to use a different final format out of your NLE anyway. Prior to the upgrade to NEO Scene, your best option was to use a 29.97 timeline and correct the audio yourself in your NLE.

But if you are converting to Cineform, you might as well have the metadata header in the converted file set to 29.97 fps and then correct the audio. As I understand what David Newman has stated, there is no interpolation between video frames to do the conversion. The 5D2 MOV file frames are converted to Cineform frames, of course, by decoding the h.264 and encoding into Cineform.

Why do the neoScene transcoded files being read as non-progressive by vegas? In Vegas, the files are indicated as Upper Field first.